Some more advice needed on practice

[anshino23]

7 minutes ago, freeform said:

The other aspect is that I'm going through a specifically spiritual process. This includes, but is not limited to neigong, qigong, nei dan and meditation - possibly some IMA in the future... but the aim is spiritual cultivation - not healing (self or others), not self-development - not skill with qi - not any of the possible side-routes within nei dan... just boring old spirituality

 

Would you say the line Damo's lineage follow is specifically geared for the spiritual process similar to your own master's?  

[freeform]

23 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

 

Would you say the line Damo's lineage follow is specifically geared for the spiritual process similar to your own master's?  

 

As far as I understand this is certainly how Damo trains... whether he takes his students through this process - I'm not sure. This isn't for everyone - in fact, I would say probably the very few... So maybe it informs his teaching - but it's not every student's aim. But there are certain responsibilities one must take on as a teacher - and that includes assisting students that want to progress in the spiritual arts.

 

He's a very good teacher and incredibly accomplished in my experience.

[SirPalomides]

43 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Maybe I'm getting too esoteric...

 

The way I understand lineages (from my Daoist teacher - who is a lineage holder (and a very private individual)) - lineages are not differentiated solely in terms of systems of practice - but in terms of a specific process of inner development. So not the tools used to make the changes - but the specific progress of step by step changes themselves.

 

For example - I also study under a Burmese meditation teacher who's from an unusual Buddhist line - however, both me and my Daoist teacher consider what I'm learning from him to fall in line with the process of inner transformation of my lineage... The Burmese teacher understands this too. Even though this is a Burmese Buddhist line of techniques - the changes it creates in me follow my Daoist lineage.

 

I've also studied under a Hindu teacher, a Theravada teacher and with another Daoist teacher - these were considered to have moved me off the path of my main lineage - so I stopped all those practices, and in fact, had to do quite a lot of work to remove their influences from my body.

 

I don't understand fully how this works - but my teachers can see my development on a 'causal' level. This means I'm told what I'm allowed to practice, what I'm allowed to eat, what I'm allowed to watch etc etc...

 

So from my understanding - a lineage is not the systems of practice or the tools used. A lineage is a specific path of inner transformations - and the tools, systems and techniques used to affect those transformations are only important in so far as how suitable they are in creating the necessary changes.

 

Saying all this, I realise this is unusual. But my teacher is also rather unusual - in that they are able to transmit a living line of development, and not only that but also be able to see what is happening to the students on a deeply insightful level. They can see what is in line with the lineage transmission and what is counter the lineage transmission. There is also obviously a ming aspect to this - as some of the students are allowed to practice some things that others are not allowed to practice.

 

The other aspect is that I'm going through a specifically spiritual process. This includes, but is not limited to neigong, qigong, nei dan and meditation - possibly some IMA in the future... but the aim is spiritual cultivation - not healing (self or others), not self-development - not skill with qi - not any of the possible side-routes within nei dan... just boring old spirituality

 

Things are probably different when it comes to developing other skill in these arts - this is where the system of training is key.

 

So this may or may not be the same as other people's experience with lineage

 

Feel free to answer by PM (or not at all) as you see fit... is your teacher part of an ordained Daoist lineage or some kind of lay lineage? How did you find your teacher? Where I live (northeast US) every kind of Daoist training anywhere near me is connected to martial arts. Don't get me wrong, I think martial arts are cool and I love kung fu movies but that's not what drives my love of Daoism.

[freeform]

 

 

 

 

Just now, SirPalomides said:

 

Feel free to answer by PM (or not at all) as you see fit... is your teacher part of an ordained Daoist lineage or some kind of lay lineage?

 

I'm really sorry - I realise it comes across like I'm dangling a carrot - but I really can't talk about specifics - not even in private. There's a certain code of conduct I've agreed to and intend to keep.

 

4 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

How did you find your teacher?

 

Travel, meeting people in the arts, and when finding someone genuine - training as well as I can with them - sometimes to obsessive levels... this way people see your dedication and will introduce you to teachers - who'll introduce you to other teachers etc...

 

7 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

Where I live (northeast US) every kind of Daoist training anywhere near me is connected to martial arts.

 

That's not necessarily a bad thing... some teachers use the martial arts as a method of development that eventually leads to spiritual training. But many don't!

 

If you have a teacher from Damo's school near you, then that's a great place to start - remember how I progressed from teacher to teacher

 

Also remember that this is a decades-long process - no need to rush or feel like you're missing out - as long as you're moving steadily in the right direction, eventually you'll get there!

 

I hope that helps.

[freeform]

17 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

is your teacher part of an ordained Daoist lineage or some kind of lay lineage?

 

Actually - I can tell you that it's not a 'religious Daoist' lineage - no priests, no monks - it's an alchemical lineage.

[Earl Grey]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Travel, meeting people in the arts, and when finding someone genuine - training as well as I can with them - sometimes to obsessive levels... this way people see your dedication and will introduce you to teachers - who'll introduce you to other teachers etc...

 

This is quite true--I'll share a little story from how I got into my Xin Yi school. 

 

This was when I was only doing the Taijiquan of my teacher, and was about five years into practice, in a place where no one new me anymore after coming from a recent job in Africa.

 

I was new in town, and as such spent my days training morning to evening, and not much else besides reading. Little things would give away my life from the way I walk to how I sit and stand, to the point even taxi drivers asked if I was a martial arts master, which made me laugh because they said my face and the way I sit looks like it. 

 

At an event, a guy puts his hand on my shoulder and says, "Hey, you look like you do martial arts. Come. Let's train sometime. Meet me at the park next week."

 

So I trained for a month with him in basic Xingyi. After that, he said, "Hey, you passed the audition, I'll take you to meet the master who does Xin Yi, not Xingyi."

 

I went there, and the master asked a bunch of questions while doing things like leaning on me and having me push as strong as I can. When he asked what I wanted to do and why I wanted to study the internal arts, whatever my answer was, it was perfect in his eyes and he said, "Great! You start next month!" and that wasn't an option--it was a mandate. 

 

Five years into Xin Yi and while my progress is a bit slow compared to others, wow, the training shows as other teachers or students just see it even if you don't try to show it. And of course, both invitations to train and challenges from other schools to people begging to learn (but seldom willing to pay the price, not just the monetary costs) come all the time.

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Little things would give away my life from the way I walk to how I sit and stand

 

 

The old gangster walk that comes when your kwa opens

 

Actually the whole body changes doesn't it... My friend has a 5yr old daughter - it's exactly the neigong body! All the tissues are song and 'inflated' with qi, the kwa is still open, the dantien is still active - the posture of the back is perfect - the shoulders are sat perfectly... Sadly it's not a great look for adults

[Taomeow]

5 hours ago, freeform said:

Regarding the lineage... I noticed he doesn't mention the specific line - I'm sure for a good reason - as I've been asked not to mention it either. Otherwise, you can see his training history on hi website: http://lotusneigong.com/training-history/

 

I know there's secret lineages that can't be mentioned, but that material is not taught or discussed and is anybody's guess except for the initiated, who is also not at liberty to reveal it.  So what's an uninitiated to go on when trying to guess if it's there while being unable to benefit from it even if it is?..  Besides, the reason a lineage may be kept secret might have nothing to do with its 'power.'  Secrecy, in and of itself, is no guarantee of quality, benevolence, authenticity or power.  

 

Whereas "training history" posted reveals an eclectic collector, which is not a bad thing by itself --  but says nothing at all about formal traditional discipleship, transmission, and mandate to teach in any of the collected disciplines.  I don't have an explanation, but it seems to confirm my point: what he wanted is "his own system."  Attributable to him, named after him, the way big new original things are named after their creator, manufacturer of discoverer.  Ford automobile,  Parker fountain pen,  Strait of Magellan, pasteurized milk.  Damo Mitchell's taoism.  

 

So what might be "off" that me and Walker both mentioned as perceiving is this.  Something familiar in what Damo is doing, but not from familiarity with taoism.  Something that rings a different bell.  Probably not a problem for everybody...  maybe even a boon for some.  But a caveat for some as well.  

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

So what's an uninitiated to go on when trying to guess if it's there while being unable to benefit from it even if it is?

 

My recommendation would be to meet with the person and if still curious then spend a little bit of time with them and see for yourself - I find that virtue or the lack of it is pretty transparent when you observe someone for even a short period. Skill is also evident when you know what to look for. With Damo you can just ask.

 

6 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

says nothing at all about formal traditional discipleship, transmission, and mandate to teach in any of the collected disciplines

 

Another thing that's worth asking about - you can quickly see if someone is genuine or not.

 

7 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

I don't have an explanation, but it seems to confirm my point: what he wanted is "his own system."

 

I think arriving at that conclusion after admitting to not even having read or listened or watched anything fully or having met the person is very presumptuous. Which is perfectly fine... unless you then go spreading your unsubstantiated 'hunch' to others - that I think is just rude gossip.

 

Walker at least had some substance behind his 'hunch' - based on what his friend told him - and then showed some interest at getting a bit more clarity.

[Taomeow]

@freeform Nah, all the epithets and ad hominem accusations were fully uncalled for, but I will let it slide and won't respond in kind, because loyalty to anyone you see as teacher and the desire to defend them from perceived loss of face is something I can relate to.  However, no "rude gossip" originated from me, and it would be nice if you didn't make things up even out of loyalty to a teacher.  As for sharing a "hunch," an opinion, and my own perceptions -- while fully owning them as my own take and nothing more and nothing less -- I deem myself qualified to have and voice those.  In this case and in any other.

 

And quit disappointing me already , I've always thought highly about your approach though seldom held identical opinions and often opposite ones -- still I perceived the exact opposite in you of what I felt and said was "off" elsewhere. 

 

Last thing -- I don't have to go seek initiation, I was talking about/to those who are in search of a teacher.  I'm not, so why would I approach someone for explanations who is not considered for the role by me?  If you're right about him, fine.  Doesn't make me wrong, or a bad guy.  D'accord?    

[Miffymog]

I can add some basics mistakes he makes in his books, I've made this point in another post a while ago, but I can make it again.

 

He says that you need to sink a little bit into the wuji posture (whose naming has already questioned by Star Jumper). He claims in his book he knows the real reason for this and that other teachers don't (he does actually say this in the book). He claims you need to sink down a little bit into the wuji posture so that your center of gravity which starts in your chest can lower itself down into the LDT - (see attached picture).

 

Now the only way I can really describe the basic misunderstanding of the term center of gravity is by asking you to picture trying to balance your rigid body on something like a rolled up yoga mat. You'd find your COG is already very near the LDT.

 

(How a simple misunderstanding of a fairly basic level of physics got into print is beyond me and does suggest that a few too many people around him don't' really question him enough)

 

Anyway - he did kind of show off about this special knowledge and has kind of got it wrong.

 

If he shows a lack of understanding on things I do have familiarity with - then I can at least have a degree of trepidation when he discusses things I don't know about.

 

I'm afraid the conclusion I can make is that he sometimes has a slightly simplified interpretation of some of the things he's learnt.

[Piyadasi]

23 minutes ago, Miffymog said:

I can add some basics mistakes he makes in his books, I've made this point in another post a while ago, but I can make it again...

 

Your analogy would be true if the body was an inert object. Except it's not and is held up in all sorts of ways by muscular or whatever tension. I can tell you for sure that it was a big discovery for me to find how I held my shoulders up, as in unconsciously all the time, not very natural or 'rigid body' -like at all. Because people tense themselves up and don't stand or walk from the kwa they have their center of gravity too high.

 

That at least is my very basic, I'm-not-a-master-at-all understanding.

[freeform]

10 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

I've always thought highly about your approach though seldom held identical opinions and often opposite ones

 

Likewise!

 

I just found it uncommonly uninformed of you to say that you couldn't face reading, watching or listening to anything of his - but still declaring an opinion. To me - coming from you - that just shows an uncharacteristic lack of manners.

 

I've certainly been harsh about teachers - rude even - but it was informed by meeting them or at the very least seeing their form...

 

21 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

because loyalty to anyone you see as teacher

 

He's not my teacher. He certainly doesn't need any defending from me!

 

I do hold him in high regard and so does my own (highly accomplished) teacher, whose opinion I obviously value.

 

What he teaches is genuine - and it's the most accessible genuine system for most people.

[freeform]

5 minutes ago, Piyadasi said:

Your analogy would be true if the body was an inert object.

 

Spot on.

 

The body is like a complex mass of interconnected water-filled balloons... a pull here, some tension there and the centre of gravity can be all over the place.

[Miffymog]

19 minutes ago, freeform said:

...

 

The body is like a complex mass of interconnected water-filled balloons... a pull here, some tension there and the centre of gravity can be all over the place.

 

 

AAAAAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Thank god this is a Daoism forum and not a Physics forum.

 

I'm trying to find some co-relation between my lack of understanding of the spiritual path followed by the likes of yourself and Damo, and the 'fast-and-lose' interpretation you take to where the center of gravity might be what might affect it!

 

edit-not in the chest

Edited December 18, 2019 by Miffymog

[Taomeow]

@freeform  I fail to see a "lack of manners" in being unwilling or unable to get through a particular teacher's material due to being put off or unimpressed and saying so -- and see it in your uncalled for harshness instead -- but, seriously, both are of little interest for me to discuss.  A public figure invites scrutiny, there's no way around it.  A private person expressing an opinion about a public figure is not fair game to ad hominem due to having an opinion.  If I were you I'd accept that and move on with what is really worth talking about.  To wit, whether the public figure presents a system worth studying.

 

So, you want me to go into details instead of mentioning in passing that I quit on everything I tried watching, reading or analyzing of his presentations?  You think, having spotted an inaccuracy here, a misrepresentation there, a gross mistake there, I ought to have still persevering with studying "it all" and meeting the teacher in person too before forming an opinion?  Why?..  When one two-minute video of his taiji is enough for me, with 15 years of training and some years of teaching, to tell that I would be glad to teach him but not so stoked about learning from him?  I've got to be this blunt?  He has a good grasp on hard styles.  Fine.  Hard styles are legit -- provided they are not masquerading as internal MA.  I've met dozens of hard stylists with experience similar to his, the difference being, they came to learn, not to teach.  A burning ambition is no substitute for skill, there's no way around it, and I know one from the other.    You want me to get into all the diagrams and paragraphs I skimmed through after seeing mistakes?  Honestly, I didn't bookmark, but if I have to go back and "explain myself," I could.  Don't expect to change your mind, so I won't.  Hope we'll have a more fruitful exchange about something else sometime in the future.  

Edited December 18, 2019 by Taomeow

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Taomeow said:

I would be glad to teach him but not so stoked about learning from him?

 

The situation is very clear now - thanks.

[Starjumper]

Is Damo his first name or is it some kind of self given title, like "Damn Mitchel, Globe Trotting, Money Grubbimg, Amateur, & Non-Artist"?

Edited December 18, 2019 by Starjumper

[Nintendao]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

Damn Mitchel

That's got a nice ring to it! I did dig up somewhere that his given name is Damien, for what its worth. Who am I to say that he's not the the Bodhidharma reincarnated? I respect what he is and does, but can relate to something seeming just oddball. He likes to tout having been trained in martial arts since age four. While an academic treasure, I think this also degrades a certain aspect of perceived authenticity, never having gotten the true benefits of having his ass handed to him by life like most of us. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Nintendao

[Starjumper]

Damn Mitchel doesn't smell so bad.  In the realm of amateur money grubbers I would place him a little above the middle, not bad for this day and age.  Things that stand out to me: he isn't an artist, he isn't an internal artists, he isn't a real martial artist either, and him naming his cobbled together BS as nei kung is disgusting ... but like I said, a little better than average.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Starjumper

[Earl Grey]

22 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

That's got a nice ring to it! I did dig up somewhere that his given name is Damien, for what its worth. Who am I to say that he's not the the Bodhidharma reincarnated? I respect what he is and does, but can relate to something seeming just oddball. He likes to tout having been trained in martial arts since age four. While an academic treasure, I think this also degrades a certain aspect of perceived authenticity, never having gotten the true benefits of having his ass handed to him by life like most of us. 

My Sigong Glenn Hairston trained since that age too, but that guy has a totally different approach than Mitchell to martial arts. A look at his YouTube and Vimeo videos show a world of difference.

[Walker]

15 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Maybe I'm getting too esoteric...

 

The way I understand lineages (from my Daoist teacher - who is a lineage holder (and a very private individual)) - lineages are not differentiated solely in terms of systems of practice - but in terms of a specific process of inner development. So not the tools used to make the changes - but the specific progress of step by step changes themselves.

 

For example - I also study under a Burmese meditation teacher who's from an unusual Buddhist line - however, both me and my Daoist teacher consider what I'm learning from him to fall in line with the process of inner transformation of my lineage... The Burmese teacher understands this too. Even though this is a Burmese Buddhist line of techniques - the changes it creates in me follow my Daoist lineage.

 

I've also studied under a Hindu teacher, a Theravada teacher and with another Daoist teacher - these were considered to have moved me off the path of my main lineage - so I stopped all those practices, and in fact, had to do quite a lot of work to remove their influences from my body.

 

I don't understand fully how this works - but my teachers can see my development on a 'causal' level. This means I'm told what I'm allowed to practice, what I'm allowed to eat, what I'm allowed to watch etc etc...

 

So from my understanding - a lineage is not the systems of practice or the tools used. A lineage is a specific path of inner transformations - and the tools, systems and techniques used to affect those transformations are only important in so far as how suitable they are in creating the necessary changes.

 

Saying all this, I realise this is unusual. But my teacher is also rather unusual - in that they are able to transmit a living line of development, and not only that but also be able to see what is happening to the students on a deeply insightful level. They can see what is in line with the lineage transmission and what is counter the lineage transmission. There is also obviously a ming aspect to this - as some of the students are allowed to practice some things that others are not allowed to practice.

 

The other aspect is that I'm going through a specifically spiritual process. This includes, but is not limited to neigong, qigong, nei dan and meditation - possibly some IMA in the future... but the aim is spiritual cultivation - not healing (self or others), not self-development - not skill with qi - not any of the possible side-routes within nei dan... just boring old spirituality

 

Things are probably different when it comes to developing other skill in these arts - this is where the system of training is key.

 

So this may or may not be the same as other people's experience with lineage

 

Yes, this is very esoteric, and of course very interesting--thank you for sharing. I was lucky enough to meet one old Daoist master who taught his students, including one of my teachers, this way. But he left the world some years ago and I do not know if my teacher (who, while being a mentor of mine for two decades is not one of my primary teachers in terms of what I actually practice) developed similar capabilities. As you say, these things are unusual to come across. 

 

It is impossible for me to read everything you wrote above without feeling as though your are suggesting that Damo Mitchell can also see his students' development on a "causal" level, too. Is that what you're implying? 

 

_____________

 

Aside: What a breath of fresh air. A bunch of adults who are hardly in agreement about everything having a sane, coherent, on-topic discussion without any agenda-driven shitposting, bizarre new agey preaching, or (thus far haha) ruffled feathers. Thanks, @sean, for recently switching the 甘草 and 大棗 in the forum's daily medicine for a bit of much-needed 巴豆 and 芒硝!

Edited December 19, 2019 by Walker

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Walker said:

suggesting that Damo Mitchell can also see his students' development on a "causal" level, too

Oh - sorry, no not what I was implying.
 

What I was suggesting is that my teacher has this level of insight and he has met and taught Damo for some time and told me about his level of development - and apparently it’s very high indeed.

[Walker]

Ah, gotcha!

[Taomeow]

.

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Taomeow