there really is no separate "unreal" in non-duality

[old3bob]

(i'd submit that) there really is no separate "unreal" or "illusion" as we often hear of in non-duality circles....thus the only -thing- that can be unreal so to speak is an unreal or incomplete perception and or being-ness  concerning non-duality which includes duality, (or so called and misunderstood maya)

Edited December 10, 2019 by old3bob

[Bindi]

I have come to a similar conclusion I think, that both duality and non-duality are perceived incompletely, and both co-exist perfectly when both are perceived clearly and as they truly are.

[EmeraldHead]

Yes, I have a similar clinging towards this subject. For duality would be like perception which is done in a mechanical and causal way by the mind and body. And non-duality is just awareness. Naturally allowing infinite rate of perceived information to come and process it the same, thus you are "aware" of the real image of the world and not of an incomplete 'illusion'.  So to call it unreal is as dramatic as calling dukka as suffering.

[dwai]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

(i'd submit that) there really is no separate "unreal" or "illusion" as we often hear of in non-duality circles....thus the only -thing- that can be unreal so to speak is an unreal or incomplete perception and or being-ness  concerning non-duality which includes duality, (or so called and misunderstood maya)

 

what is called “unreal” is the notion that there is a world apart from the nondual awareness. It’s a conceptual thing. 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

 

what is called “unreal” is the notion that there is a world apart from the nondual awareness. It’s a conceptual thing. 

 

umm, lots of variation going on for that depending on the school one espouses.

[dwai]

11 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

umm, lots of variation going on for that depending on the school one espouses.

The confusion is due to different levels of understanding. Swami Sarvapriyananda says there are 3 steps to Advaita.

1. Separate oneself from the phenomenal world, the mind and the body so that it (phenomenal world) stops affecting us by generating rāga-dvésha (like-dislike/love-hate) in the mind. This is called developing sākshi-bhāva or witnessing consciousness. This is dualistic. There is you, the witness and there is a separate world (samsāra).
2. Through meditation, contemplation and detached observation realize that the world is nothing but name and form (nāma-rūpa) and essentially empty in nature. This is also duality but very subtle.
3. Realize that the appearances of name and form happens within you, the awareness alone. They can never be separate from you. Realize that in every phenomenon, once we let go of the focus on name and form, the qualities of Being (Asti), Consciousness (Bhāti or illumination) and Bliss (Priyam) shine forth. Samsāra is nothing apart from Nirvāńa, or Jagat and Jiva are nothing apart from Brahman -- the true Self (Atman). 

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

The confusion is due to different levels of understanding. Swami Sarvapriyananda says there are 3 steps to Advaita.

1. Separate oneself from the phenomenal world, the mind and the body so that it (phenomenal world) stops affecting us by generating rāga-dvésha (like-dislike/love-hate) in the mind. This is called developing sākshi-bhāva or witnessing consciousness. This is dualistic. There is you, the witness and there is a separate world (samsāra).
2. Through meditation, contemplation and detached observation realize that the world is nothing but name and form (nāma-rūpa) and essentially empty in nature. This is also duality but very subtle.
3. Realize that the appearances of name and form happens within you, the awareness alone. They can never be separate from you. Realize that in every phenomenon, once we let go of the focus on name and form, the qualities of Being (Asti), Consciousness (Bhāti or illumination) and Bliss (Priyam) shine forth. Samsāra is nothing apart from Nirvāńa, or Jagat and Jiva are nothing apart from Brahman -- the true Self (Atman). 

 

although.... 

[dawei]

7 hours ago, old3bob said:

(i'd submit that) there really is no separate "unreal" or "illusion" as we often hear of in non-duality circles....thus the only -thing- that can be unreal so to speak is an unreal or incomplete perception and or being-ness  concerning non-duality which includes duality, (or so called and misunderstood maya)

 

Is this strictly a Hindu framework?  I usually don't venture into this sub-forum but the topic grabs interest.

 

You said "unreal" or "illusion" is often heard of in non-dual circles, but didn't present the idea you submit against.   Reading the rest, I tend to agree with incomplete perception.  

 

Saying,  "being-ness  concerning non-duality which includes duality".   I assume you are saying that One=Two.    If that is your point, I agree. 

 

4 hours ago, dwai said:

 

what is called “unreal” is the notion that there is a world apart from the nondual awareness. It’s a conceptual thing. 

 

I think that is O3B point and I agree.

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

The confusion is due to different levels of understanding. Swami Sarvapriyananda says there are 3 steps to Advaita.

1. Separate oneself from the phenomenal world, the mind and the body so that it (phenomenal world) stops affecting us by generating rāga-dvésha (like-dislike/love-hate) in the mind. This is called developing sākshi-bhāva or witnessing consciousness. This is dualistic. There is you, the witness and there is a separate world (samsāra).
2. Through meditation, contemplation and detached observation realize that the world is nothing but name and form (nāma-rūpa) and essentially empty in nature. This is also duality but very subtle.
3. Realize that the appearances of name and form happens within you, the awareness alone. They can never be separate from you. Realize that in every phenomenon, once we let go of the focus on name and form, the qualities of Being (Asti), Consciousness (Bhāti or illumination) and Bliss (Priyam) shine forth. Samsāra is nothing apart from Nirvāńa, or Jagat and Jiva are nothing apart from Brahman -- the true Self (Atman). 

 

Now this is TMI for me.  Whether 12 steps or 3 steps... it gets into prescribed formulas that I don't relate to.  Maybe the point is that some naturally go through these 3 steps without every 'trying' or 'thinking' there are steps.  THey just 'realize'.  

[wstein]

7 hours ago, old3bob said:

(i'd submit that) there really is no separate "unreal" or "illusion" as we often hear of in non-duality circles....

There is also no separate 'real'. Thus 'it' all is Maya.

[old3bob]

4 hours ago, wstein said:

There is also no separate 'real'. Thus 'it' all is Maya.

 

it's all explained in the first chapter of the T.T.C.  (as in "Mystery" does not deny the mysteries)

[old3bob]

8 hours ago, dawei said:

 

Is this strictly a Hindu framework?  I usually don't venture into this sub-forum but the topic grabs interest.

 

You said "unreal" or "illusion" is often heard of in non-dual circles, but didn't present the idea you submit against.   Reading the rest, I tend to agree with incomplete perception.  

 

Saying,  "being-ness  concerning non-duality which includes duality".   I assume you are saying that One=Two.    If that is your point, I agree. 

 

 

I think that is O3B point and I agree.

 

 

Now this is TMI for me.  Whether 12 steps or 3 steps... it gets into prescribed formulas that I don't relate to.  Maybe the point is that some naturally go through these 3 steps without every 'trying' or 'thinking' there are steps.  THey just 'realize'.  

 

Well it is the Hindu sub-forum but - I'd say that there is some correlation with what Dawi brought up and the Zen type saying of, "first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is..."  As for the Two in Taoism it was given birth by The One.

Edited December 11, 2019 by old3bob

[dwai]

8 hours ago, dawei said:

Now this is TMI for me.  Whether 12 steps or 3 steps... it gets into prescribed formulas that I don't relate to.  Maybe the point is that some naturally go through these 3 steps without every 'trying' or 'thinking' there are steps.  THey just 'realize'.  

Yeah that is possible. In fact, it is very likely to happen when we practice meditation and enter deep cessation/absorption.

 

The three steps are not strict and depends on how strongly one is enamored by the phenomenal world.

 

Since we all are already nondual awareness, the way back from duality is also really just a shift in mental framework and cognition. 
 

How far do and how long we have to travel to get to the Self?  

 

 

[old3bob]

we can get to areas of the mind per time and place but never to the Self in the same sense being it is not of mind.

[EmeraldHead]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

we can get to areas of the mind per time and place but never to the Self in the same sense being it is not of mind.

Yes, Kabbalah likes to say this by pointing that the self is beyond logic. More like the eternal drive of whatever logic is present. Like the sun in the sky always being above.

[dwai]

13 hours ago, old3bob said:

we can get to areas of the mind per time and place but never to the Self in the same sense being it is not of mind.

But we also don't have to do anything to get to the Self. We are already that

[manitou]

As I see it, you can't have time without space, and vice versa.  I think we're a hologram of the junction of the time plane and the space plane.  And because our sensory ranges are limited, sometimes I wonder if there aren't other scenarios being acted out right here where I sit.  Maybe we just can't sense them.  Could these be the Buddha-lands of the Sutras?

[old3bob]

7 hours ago, dwai said:

But we also don't have to do anything to get to the Self. We are already that

 

besides the saying of "standing still" (at absolute speed that is beyond speed) ,  we also have the saying of "going far and returning"  along with the "first and the last" having a relationship  to that

[rideforever]

On 10/12/2019 at 9:30 PM, old3bob said:

an unreal or incomplete perception and or being-ness 

 

How can there be an incomplete perception ?

That is duality.

And there is duality.

Why ?

If everything is always one how can there be a duality ?

Well it's not that complex really ... an acorn if you plant it becomes an oak tree.

Is it no longer an acorn ?  Well it has grown up.

And everything is growing, everything that lives is growing.

Everything that lives is breathing, it is assimilating air, it metabolises, it is growing.

And the universe is divided into many beings of many wondrous forms.

Imagine if it was "just one thing", a dot.  You would have to kill all the trees, all the music, all sex.

Life is growing, flowing, creating, part of that is separation and re-unification.

Breathing out and breathing in.

Sexing out and sexing in.

It is  the in and out movement that creates ... joy ?  Knowledge ?  Communication ?  Growth ?
And it's great fun to grow.

 

How can there be an incomplete perception ?

Easily, because when the One is such a vast garden of creativity, these parts of existence are in different places, how boring it would be if they would be just the same.  Every tree just the same.  Only one species in the universe.  How dull.
The universe is trying very hard to make many things.
And we feel our Oneness from time to time, the origin, the dao, the centre ... it's beautiful, coming together, back home.

And then out we go away to do our crazy shit.  Our own personal brand of crazy shit.

And then we return to port.

We feel, we return, we fight, we burn, we breathe out, we breathe in.

 

Cycles and cycles and cycles.

 

[old3bob]

we can not do anything to change the unchangeable, or destroy the indestructible....btw, who is ready to surrender their identity as a particular mind and soul to come to really know that?  maybe one in a billion of us but who can really say until they have crossed that bridge, and.getting to implied bridge and then stepping into the unknown is  something that we can do with help

[rideforever]

.
 

Edited December 17, 2019 by rideforever