What is Jing ... really?

[anshino23]

Just now, freeform said:

Sorry - too much to get into!

 

Probably not that important at first either. It's not required to replenish prenatal jing to recover health in most cases is it? Just replenishing post-natal Jing would be enough to support kidneys and the whole system, yes? 

[freeform]

55 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

 

Probably not that important at first either. It's not required to replenish prenatal jing to recover health in most cases is it? Just replenishing post-natal Jing would be enough to support kidneys and the whole system, yes? 

 

Yes exactly.

 

Jing in alchemy is a fascinating subject - but pretty involved

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Miffymog said:

many of these Eastern thoughts - but I just cant bring myself to believe in them I'm afraid.

 

You don't need to!

 

 

[EmeraldHead]

On 12/18/2019 at 2:28 PM, dwai said:

I know some folks don’t like to mix systems, but to put the light/Shen/Qi/jing continuum in a body-based approach, Light is nondual and is the power of pure awareness which is the ground of being,  and Shen corresponds with the causal body,  Qi with the astral or energy body abs jing with the physical body. 

Most people believe the relationship is inverted - physical contains energy contains causal , if they believe it at all. 
 

The fact is quite the opposite. The physical body and physical universe is a fraction of ‘reality’.  

In the mahanirvana tantra, Lord Shiva tells “I can pack your entire material universe into a single mustard seed”.  I know obsessing about the body and it’s vagaries are natural because most of us identify with the physical body more than anything else. But when we realize our true nature is awareness, then these things simply fade away from focus. 

 

you are cooking systems into one meat ball here

[dwai]

54 minutes ago, EmeraldHead said:

you are cooking systems into one meat ball here

There is only one...but it’s not a meat ball  

[liminal_luke]

Question for any of our resident jing experts who care to reply, @dwai @freeform @Taomeow.  Suppose a Bum has modest aims (health and happiness) and wants to relate to their jing in an optimum way -- what advice would you give?

[dwai]

50 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Question for any of our resident jing experts who care to reply, @dwai @freeform @Taomeow.  Suppose a Bum has modest aims (health and happiness) and wants to relate to their jing in an optimum way -- what advice would you give?

I’m no ‘expert’ at anything but I found that eating healthy foods, doing taijiquan or some similar IMA/yoga + pranayama help. 
 

Another aspect I’m rediscovering after shunning for many years now is a good physical workout regimen. Get a good 3-4 days of strength training and cardio in every week. Makes a big difference for me. 

EDIT— Oh another thing I was reminded of just now is that stop over-dependence on concepts. Concepts are great to start with but can soon end up imprisoning us. We might have the most powerful technique in the world,  but if we get caught up on concepts without direct experience to corroborate them, we end up neutralizing much of the power of said technique. 

 

An open mind and open heart is very essential to live a healthy and happy  life imho. 

Edited January 3, 2020 by dwai

[EmeraldHead]

1 hour ago, EmeraldHead said:

light/Shen/Qi/jing

This for example, the daoists say 5 things not 4. emptiness and dao are distinct. even lao tzu has his 5 steps of existence, not 4. The emptiness elixir and the dao elixir are totally different. I remember reading an article from purple cloud blog just last month.

In regards to the Elixir Dao, he completed the process of Refinement of the Void and the Unification with the Dao " http://purplecloudinstitute.com/saints-sages-part-vii-張三豐-zhang-san-feng-1247/

Instead you just call it one and using some hindu lineage for it and then call it light. Light is still external from/known to you - a kosha. Atman is beyond the koshas.

Anyway, I will stop because I am off-topic.

Edited January 3, 2020 by EmeraldHead

[dwai]

26 minutes ago, EmeraldHead said:

This for example, the daoists say 5 things not 4. emptiness and dao are distinct. even lao tzu has his 5 steps of existence, not 4. The emptiness elixir and the dao elixir are totally different. I remember reading an article from purple cloud blog just last month.

In regards to the Elixir Dao, he completed the process of Refinement of the Void and the Unification with the Dao " http://purplecloudinstitute.com/saints-sages-part-vii-張三豐-zhang-san-feng-1247/

Instead you just call it one and using some hindu lineage for it and then call it light. Light is still external from/known to you - a kosha. Atman is beyond the koshas.

Anyway, I will stop because I am off-topic.

not the light of awareness — which is what I mean by light. Atman is awareness and it is light  

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

Question for any of our resident jing experts who care to reply, @dwai @freeform @Taomeow.  Suppose a Bum has modest aims (health and happiness) and wants to relate to their jing in an optimum way -- what advice would you give?

 

If "experts" were to put their respective views together, the resulting picture of jing would perhaps look something like this...

 

 

For me, the best way to relate to one's jing is to find out as much as possible about who you really are.  Jing is fundamental memory of who you are and how you became that.  Losing that memory is not compensated by accepting someone's narrative.  Any statements along the lines of, "you are _____________" are understood only by your neocortex.  One thing is certain -- you are not your neocortex.  E.g., when they say things like "you are not your body," it's the neocortex that formulates that idea, and by doing that, it is merely telling its own story.  Yes, it is, indeed, not your body.  It is the youngest, least experienced, consequently least wise, and sadly most arrogant and verbose part of your brain, is all.  It talks outta its neoass.

 

Your body and your mind together know who you are, neither one does separately.  I don't believe pitching one against the other is conductive to health and happiness.  Your jing is four billion years old, and its story is the story of life on earth -- for starters.  It's not the story of what this or that guru preached from this or that sacred book serving this or that psyop purpose.  It's the story of the environment that is the spirit co-arising and co-created with the body that embodies it perfectly.  Trying to make it your story once again, to the extent possible, is the best way to relate to one's jing IMO.  

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by Taomeow

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

If "experts" were to put their respective views together, the resulting picture of jing would perhaps look something like this...

 

 

For me, the best way to relate to one's jing is to find out as much as possible about who you really are.  Jing is fundamental memory of who you are, minus all the false memories imposed socially, culturally and traumatically.  Losing that memory is not compensated by accepting someone's narrative.  Any statements along the lines of, "you are _____________" are understood only by your neocortex.  One thing is certain -- you are not your neocortex.  E.g., when they say things like "you are not your body," it's the neocortex that formulates that idea, and by doing that, it is merely telling its own story.  Yes, it is, indeed, not your body.  It is the youngest, least experienced, consequently least wise, and sadly most arrogant and verbose part of your brain, is all.  It talks outta its neoass.

 

Your body and your mind together know who you are, neither one does separately.  I don't believe pitching one against the other is conductive to health and happiness.  Your jing is four billion years old, and its story is the story of life on earth -- for starters.  It's not the story of what this or that guru preached from this or that sacred book serving this or that psyop purpose.  It's the story of the environment that is the spirit co-arising and co-created with the body that embodies it perfectly.  Trying to make it your story once again, to the extent possible, is the best way to relate to one's jing IMO.  

 

 That zebtahlephant ... 

[liminal_luke]

3 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

For me, the best way to relate to one's jing is to find out as much as possible about who you really are.  Jing is fundamental memory of who you are, minus all the false memories imposed socially, culturally and traumatically.  Losing that memory is not compensated by accepting someone's narrative. 

 

[freeform]

18 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Question for any of our resident jing experts who care to reply, @dwai @freeform @Taomeow.  Suppose a Bum has modest aims (health and happiness) and wants to relate to their jing in an optimum way -- what advice would you give?

 

For 'normal' (aka 'vulgar' ) people, Jing powers all the  fun stuff... Be moderate with the fun stuff and your jing will be well...

 

The fun stuff is - staying up late, overindulging in food, sex, emotions, drugs, alcohol, thinking, imagination, relaxation...

 

So moderation is key... although what's 'moderate' might be surprising to modern humans...

 

It's the basics:

 

sleep well and keep regular hours - don't sleep too little and certainly don't sleep too much.

 

Exercise - not too much and not too little - listen to your body, but also keep in mind that if your body is sedentary you'll need to consistently push beyond the edge of your comfort barrier - but not too far. Allow for recovery as well as for intensity.

 

Eat well - eat local and seasonal... don't eat too much - and don't eat too little... Eat lots of different vegetables. Don't overindulge in food - it's fuel, not sensual pleasure... fuel can be tasty, but needn't be theatrical - simple is best.

 

Be moderate in sexual thought and activity... Orgasm (not just ejaculation) is damaging for men (orgasm is actually beneficial for women - although penetration is somewhat damaging)... Too much sexual thought is damaging for both men and women... moderation - not abstinence. Remember - you're in charge of your thoughts.

 

Overworking, overthinking, too much emotion, too much sensual pleasure can all damage jing... but then again - not enough of these things can also damage you

 

So yeah - boring old moderation.

 

Just remember that jing is there to be used - there is no point 'hoarding' it and there is no point squandering it... just be skilful and efficient.

Edited January 4, 2020 by freeform

[freeform]

11 minutes ago, GSmaster said:

Each orgasm without ejaculation is like 30-50% of energy lost, that builds up over time tremendously.

Yes exactly. But it’s not just the loss of Jing - orgasm in men also has a damaging effect on the organs.
 

A little damage is fine - life is damaging  

 

[Taomeow]

4 hours ago, freeform said:

Orgasm (not just ejaculation) is damaging for men (orgasm is actually beneficial for women - although penetration is somewhat damaging)

 

The Arts of the Bedchamber disagree.  It can be either damaging or beneficial for both sexes depending on how, when, with what mindset, with what kind of heart spirit, with what body condition, with what technique. 

 

Here's a very partial list of what kinds of orgasm are indeed harmful, from taoist classics on the subject:

 

an involuntary intercourse;

rough movement just for one's own pleasure;

intercourse after mental or physical exhaustion;

overindulgence;

intercourse after sweating or loss of sperm;

with irregular breath;

with penile flaccidity.     

 

Taoist literature on the subject concerns beneficial, healing, strengthening and replenishing effects of correct approaches to sex and orgasm as well as the devastating detriments (for both sexes) of the incorrect ones.  But we are a consumerist culture.  People set fucking goals.  The goal of porn/promiscuity is orgasm, the goal of celibacy/retention is no orgasm, both are consumerist approaches.  And that will consume jing, no doubt. 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Taomeow

[freeform]

45 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

Taoist literature on the subject

There is some disagreement of whether a lot of Daoist sexual classics are indeed classics or derivative works from the likes of Kama Sutra being brought into China (at which time any Indian literature was considered ultra spiritual)...

 

Not a debate I’m particularly interested in though

[Taomeow]

9 minutes ago, freeform said:

There is some disagreement of whether a lot of Daoist sexual classics are indeed classics or derivative works from the likes of Kama Sutra being brought into China (at which time any Indian literature was considered ultra spiritual)...

 

Not a debate I’m particularly interested in though

 

No, me neither.   Just wanted to point out to any reading males who feel being harmed by your assertion as they read that it depends on a lot of other factors that are far more under their control than being a male.

 

And if you read both Kama Sutra and what I am talking about (sadly, only parts that were preserved in later litearature from the sources of the once-voluminous taoist sexology-jingology-medicine-immortality sciences -- e.g. from the twenty-six volumes of the Yin-doctrines of Rong Cheng, Sunu Notes, etc.), I'm sure you would't fall for that "derivative works" nonsense.  The original taoist sexual doctrines are fully proprietary at least to the extent anything original taoist is -- possibly to a greater extent.  And no, taoism is not originally an Indo-European borrowing.  That came much later.     

[freeform]

15 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

I'm sure you would't fall for that "derivative works" nonsense.  The original taoist sexual doctrines are fully proprietary at least to the extent anything original taoist is -- possibly to a greater extent.  And no, taoism is not originally an Indo-European borrowing.  That came much later. 

Oh there are certainly some genuine classics in relation to dual cultivation - and as you say, they are not publicly available... What is publicly available has gone through a lot of mixing/filtering and reinterpreting - particularly to fit male interests.

 

Sex can be used beneficially... but however one spins it (and they do spin it a lot!) - orgasm for men has no benefit - it depletes and damages (to greater or lesser extent)... male writers and translators tend to translate these parts ‘creatively’ so that it panders to their interest.

 

Then there is some difference on the subject between true ‘cultivators’ and the ‘vulgar people’

[Taomeow]

29 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Sex can be used beneficially... but however one spins it (and they do spin it a lot!) - orgasm for men has no benefit - it depletes and damages (to greater or lesser extent)...

 

I think this idea may have been introduced by some benevolent guys as a deterrent for some not-so-enlightened males whom they fully expected to abuse instead of use the greatest power of creation, something that pretty much gives existence to the manifest world (yup -- not limited to the existence of humans, the universe itself is thought of as the outcome of "yang embracing yin" and releasing love and receiving love.  Love, an altruistic deal in case anyone wondered what it's about, will of course "use up" -- unless equipotently reciprocal love comes to meet and replenish). 

 

By the same token this idea can be (and was and is) used as a welcome confirmation for others, those who seek to abandon all manifestations, interpreting them as suffering and illusion and the unmanifest as bliss and the real. 

 

But the usefulness of a lie toward preventing some deranged behaviors is limited.  And "orgasm for men has no benefit" is a patent lie.  In fact, we have tons of lies along the lines of "pleasure has no benefit" in circulation -- for various deplorable reasons -- but the truth of the matter is, it's pleasure, not pain, not suffering, that is truly developmental -- to the body and soul and, as modern science has discovered, to the brain.  Pleasure-deprived brain is a damaged brain...  it's physiology, not ideology.    

Edited January 4, 2020 by Taomeow

[freeform]

42 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

introduced by some benevolent guys as a deterrent

 

respectfully disagree

 

 

 

 

 

48 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

Love [...] will of course "use up" -- unless equipotently reciprocal love comes to meet and replenish

Yes - an important point. Love (reciprocated) is fundamental for any dual cultivation to be healthy. Still - orgasm (for men) isn't. It doesn't mean that it ceases to be 'the greatest power of creation'. Having children, breastfeeding etc is also highly damaging to the jing of a woman... but also a fundamental aspect of life.

 

42 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

but the truth of the matter is, it's pleasure, not pain, not suffering, that is truly developmental -- to the body and soul and, as modern science has discovered, to the brain.  Pleasure-deprived brain is a damaged brain...

 

I'm sure you know plenty of brains damaged by pleasure.

 

Pleasure and pain are not of much consequence... development is developmental - pleasure or pain, or any other experience are just byproducts.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

One obvious benefit of male orgasm -- though certainly not the only benefit and arguably not the best -- is conception. As much as I hate to admit it, the process of people-making through heterosexual sex is high alchemy and quite majestic.  My understanding is that Taoists follow nature and nature is abundantly and uninhibitedly sexual.

 

Orgasm gets a bad name these days, especially among men, because more than a few of us stay up all night staring at a screen full of disembodied body parts, chat online with the alledged, and often rageful, owners of said body parts, use such technological pseudo-intimacy to avoid real intimacy with both ourselves and others.  In my view, such activity is neither natural nor, truth be told, pleasurable.  

 

It´s not so different from food.  Bad things will happen if we eat only Twinkies but starvation is not the best, or only, alternative.

Edited January 4, 2020 by liminal_luke

[dwai]

This fear of orgasm and sex is a myth introduced to keep monks celibate and focused on their studies. Yes, sex can be distracting for people who have an unhealthy obsession with it. Usually that is a result of repression. 

Perform the act when the need arises and then move on. If you can perform the act with mindfulness, it is quite liberating. 
 

if you’ve ever had an hours long ‘orgasm’ without even touching or being with another person you’ll understand how powerful it is. That is what a real orgasm is — involving the body, mind and spirit - compete ecstasy. Funnily enough when you seek/chase it, it doesn’t happen. 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, GSmaster said:

 

Monks have big issues as being celibate does not help them to control or use sexual energy, it essentially closes up the channel.

 

Might be the reason why monks dont work with Qi practices and internal energy as they dont have Jing to support those practices.

 

 

The orgasm lifeform is talking about is when you have ejaculation jolt and either lose semen, or prevent it by pressing lock pressure. It is a discharge and it does not last for an hour. 

 

Ecstasy is a different thing and it can last for hours without any arousal or sex.

 

The two (orgasm and ecstasy) are part of the same spectrum - bliss. ‘Ecstasy’ can be accompanied with a physical reaction (or not). But what most people don’t realize is that sexual stimulation doesn’t start with the body, it is a reaction of the mind.
 

The mind in turn reacts to the energetic configuration of (gasp...I’m going to use a Hindu word) the second chakra. It arises as a strong excitation in that chakra. As to why it does so is a result of seeking completion. 

 

What is the nature of this ‘seeking completion’? 
 

Each of us have a male and female aspect. With the physical body and the limited mind, the gender which gets reinforced as the dominant aspect will seek completion. It will try to find completion in its opposite (energetic - May or May not equate to gender). That is the basis of sexual desire. It is different from the biological imperative to procreate (that is for the animals).

 

So by suppressing this urge or by outright repressing it, we are stymying our natural tendency for expansion from a limited state (body-mind) to a state of completion. It is detrimental to spiritual growth. 
 

When the completion occurs, a deep sense of fulfillment permeates our experience - it feels like a sponge which is fully soaked in water, and that then soaks into everything that comes in contact with it.
 

For most the completion can happen with a physical partner. For a few others, it can happen with an energetic partner. For the even rarer few, it comes from the realization of our inherent complete nature (transcending gender completely at the spiritual level). 

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

 

For most the completion can happen with a physical partner. For a few others, it can happen with an energetic partner. For the even rarer few, it comes from the realization of our inherent complete nature (transcending gender completely at the spiritual level). 

 

Well said.

 

I believe we are all on a journey towards "realization of our inherent complete nature."  It can be a solo journey but most people´s evolution is furthered by partnership.  Marriage is in service of exactly this realization and this is why marriage is so notoriously difficult.

[dwai]

13 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Well said.

 

I believe we are all on a journey towards "realization of our inherent complete nature."  It can be a solo journey but most people´s evolution is furthered by partnership.  Marriage is in service of exactly this realization and this is why marriage is so notoriously difficult.

Spouses often are the toughest teachers