What is Jing ... really?

[Rara]

On 03/01/2020 at 5:48 PM, dwai said:

I’m no ‘expert’ at anything but I found that eating healthy foods, doing taijiquan or some similar IMA/yoga + pranayama help. 
 

Another aspect I’m rediscovering after shunning for many years now is a good physical workout regimen. Get a good 3-4 days of strength training and cardio in every week. Makes a big difference for me. 

EDIT— Oh another thing I was reminded of just now is that stop over-dependence on concepts. Concepts are great to start with but can soon end up imprisoning us. We might have the most powerful technique in the world,  but if we get caught up on concepts without direct experience to corroborate them, we end up neutralizing much of the power of said technique. 

 

An open mind and open heart is very essential to live a healthy and happy  life imho. 

 

I used to do upper body training right up until April last year. I started again two days ago and realised that it is NECESSITY for me. The energetic sensation and general "solidity" I feel from it is so worth it. It took 9 months away from it to understand this.

[anshino23]

29 minutes ago, Rara said:

I used to do upper body training right up until April last year. I started again two days ago and realised that it is NECESSITY for me. The energetic sensation and general "solidity" I feel from it is so worth it. It took 9 months away from it to understand this.

 

You mean weight training or? I really liked the feeling I got after doing squats and deadlifts, but I learned from freeform that it builds the body in the completely opposite direction of what is needed for neigong and neidan, so had to let it go. Now I do running and stretching instead. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by anshino23

[dwai]

6 hours ago, anshino23 said:

 

You mean weight training or? I really liked the feeling I got after doing squats and deadlifts, but I learned from freeform that it builds the body in the completely opposite direction of what is needed for neigong and neidan, so had to let it go. Now I do running and stretching instead. 

I avoided strength training for almost 14-15 years for that very reason. 
 

Once we have developed sensitivity to Qi, and know how to clean the channels up using fajin, open the joints, feel the fascia - it can readily counter the unwanted side effects of  physical workouts (namely bulking up and losing sensitivity). 
 

I resumed strength training after 15 odd years,  after my teacher confirmed to me that it is okay to train that way. Cardio, moderate resistance and full body workouts are good for us if we are internal martial artists and certainly if our objective is health focused. 
 

It’s been 4+ months that I’ve been working out 4-5 times a week (60+ mins of strength training per day along with cardio). I’ve not seen any deleterious effect on my ting or ability or access the energetics. 
 

I think the key is moderation. Don’t over do - do as much as necessary. 

[anshino23]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

I avoided strength training for almost 14-15 years for that very reason. 
 

Once we have developed sensitivity to Qi, and know how to clean the channels up using fajin, open the joints, feel the fascia - it can readily counter the unwanted side effects of  physical workouts (namely bulking up and losing sensitivity). 
 

I resumed strength training after 15 odd years,  after my teacher confirmed to me that it is okay to train that way. Cardio, moderate resistance and full body workouts are good for us if we are internal martial artists and certainly if our objective is health focused. 
 

It’s been 4+ months that I’ve been working out 4-5 times a week (60+ mins of strength training per day along with cardio). I’ve not seen any deleterious effect on my ting or ability or access the energetics. 
 

I think the key is moderation. Don’t over do - do as much as necessary. 

 

Very interesting, thanks. I don't know if you follow a lineage like freeform does though that builds the body in the same manner with the fascia connecting together in the way he describes? It seems there are many differing opinions on this! At least it seems from @freeform he said that it will only cause harm in terms of development. He has said multiple times that bodyweight stuff like animal walks are great though and also things like sit ups and some push ups, but anything that involves contractive force like deadlift, squats and bench press is no bueno since it will create problems for the internal mechanics.

 

Here's the quote from first page of this thread: 

 

Quote

So squatting heavy weights might increase testosterone and it might increase bone mass - but it will diminish your ability to Song - it will stop the capacity of your mind-fluid to enter deep into your tissues - as a result it will stop your ability to enter absorption, your ability to generate massive amounts of Qi, your ability to sink the Qi etc etc.

 

There are always cause and effect relationships that we simply don't understand unless we're at the stage of development where we have full causal insight. Until then all our attempts to change, improve or accelerated a traditional system will be coming from a very limited understanding and based on our preferences and predilections of our acquired minds!

 

I do find it strange that it has such a potent effect on my mind when I've finished such a workout. I do not get the same rush from doing cardio or bodyweight, it is only with heavy weights and things like deadlifts, squats and bench press I get that feeling. It is like a rush of warmth through the body and can become quite euphoric, I imagine it is some androgenic hormonal response, but I have no idea. 

[freeform]

4 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

At least it seems from @freeform he said that it will only cause harm in terms of development.

Yup - afraid so.

It is possible to train with weights once the Qigong body is established (after a long time). But it still has negative effects. They can, to some extent, be compensated for and counteracted - but unless Dwai finds a way to use Song for weights (rather than contractive force) he will probably find that his body is developing in the wrong direction. But Dwai knows what he’s doing - so I’m sure it will be fine

 

As a beginner doing weight training and qigong together is pointless (for the qigong side). Just choose one path of development and enjoy

 

 

[Taomeow]

1 minute ago, anshino23 said:

 

I do find it strange that it has such a potent effect on my mind when I've finished such a workout. I do not get the same rush from doing cardio or bodyweight, it is only with heavy weights and things like deadlifts, squats and bench press I get that feeling. It is like a rush of warmth through the body and can become quite euphoric, I imagine it is some androgenic hormonal response, but I have no idea. 

 

I'm guessing it might be the feeling of endogenous opiates the body releases in response to trauma.  The reason I think this might be the case is, among other things, that I was in communication for a couple of years with an ex weightlifting champion of a certain country.  In his younger years he was a beast, unstoppable, looking for street fights as a matter of routine, feeling like a god much of the time.  By his early 40s, however, he was pretty much in constant pain, mostly back pain, but also knee pain and what not -- he still looked muscular and strong, and he was still strong -- when he could walk at all, which occasionally took hours of heroic effort.  He took up qigong after a movie-like scenario that happened in real life -- after having his ass whooped by an old taiji master.  The master refused to teach him taiji though, asserting he's too violent.  This guy then started looking for taiji instruction elsewhere, not many options where he now lives.  Wanted me to teach him long distance.  I refused, I found him too crazy...

 

   

[dwai]

22 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

 

Very interesting, thanks. I don't know if you follow a lineage like freeform does though that builds the body in the same manner with the fascia connecting together in the way he describes? It seems there are many differing opinions on this! At least it seems from @freeform he said that it will only cause harm in terms of development. He has said multiple times that bodyweight stuff like animal walks are great though and also things like sit ups and some push ups, but anything that involves contractive force like deadlift, squats and bench press is no bueno since it will create problems for the internal mechanics.

 

Here's the quote from first page of this thread: 

 

 

I do find it strange that it has such a potent effect on my mind when I've finished such a workout. I do not get the same rush from doing cardio or bodyweight, it is only with heavy weights and things like deadlifts, squats and bench press I get that feeling. It is like a rush of warmth through the body and can become quite euphoric, I imagine it is some androgenic hormonal response, but I have no idea. 

Tbh I don’t know much about freeform and I don’t agree with somethings he writes about.  

 

I know this — I used to shirk strength training and I have pretty good proficiency in taijiquan which was developed over 20 years or so. By doing strength and cardio training I’ve not lost anything yet in terms of either ting, peng, sung or spiritual clarity. Only thing was that for the first 2 months after I started working out, there was a lot of kinetic mental energy built up, but it eventually levels out. 
 

Adding a point about sung with weights - that is exactly what happens. The whole body takes up the effort, so even isolated drills like bicep curls become full body workouts. 
 

In fact I was laughing and sharing this with my personal trainer a few weeks back  

Edited January 5, 2020 by dwai

[anshino23]

3 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

I'm guessing it might be the feeling of endogenous opiates the body releases in response to trauma.  The reason I think this might be the case is, among other things, that I was in communication for a couple of years with an ex weightlifting champion of a certain country.  In his younger years he was a beast, unstoppable, looking for street fights as a matter of routine, feeling like a god much of the time.  By his early 40s, however, he was pretty much in constant pain, mostly back pain, but also knee pain and what not -- he still looked muscular and strong, and he was still strong -- when he could walk at all, which occasionally took hours of heroic effort.  He took up qigong after a movie-like scenario that happened in real life -- after having his ass whooped by an old taiji master.  The master refused to teach him taiji though, asserting he's too violent.  This guy then started looking for taiji instruction elsewhere, not many options where he now lives.  Wanted me to teach him long distance.  I refused, I found him too crazy...

 

 

That sounds like it would harm the jing in that case  Weight training causing significant damage with long-term negative effects in terms of mobility and pain as described in your example. 

 

Not the thing I'm after  I'll stay safe with body weight training, cardio and Qigong/Neigong.  

[anshino23]

5 minutes ago, dwai said:

I know this — I used to shirk strength training and I have pretty good proficiency in taijiquan which was developed over 20 years or so. By doing strength and cardio training I’ve not lost anything yet in terms of either ting, peng, sung or spiritual clarity. Only thing was that for the first 2 months after I started working out, there was a lot of kinetic mental energy built up, but it eventually levels out. 

 

I see, thanks. I'll stay clear for now. When I've reached a high enough level of internal energy proficiency, I'll probably be able to discern more clearly for myself the cause effect relationship...  

[dwai]

9 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

 

I see, thanks. I'll stay clear for now. When I've reached a high enough level of internal energy proficiency, I'll probably be able to discern more clearly for myself the cause effect relationship...  

btw when I say strength training I’m only using lighter weights - 15-20 lb kettlebells, 15-20 lb dumbbells, 10-20 lb Indian mace and multiple reps and slowly building up — not heavy weight lifting. Bulking up is not the objective — getting the metabolism to high gear is, counter weight gain — which is what happened to me with years of not doing this kind of physical exercise.

 

Also added intermittent fasting to it - 16:8 on:off ratio. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by dwai

[Rara]

9 hours ago, anshino23 said:

 

You mean weight training or? I really liked the feeling I got after doing squats and deadlifts, but I learned from freeform that it builds the body in the completely opposite direction of what is needed for neigong and neidan, so had to let it go. Now I do running and stretching instead. 

 

Calisthenics, actually. I do want to work in a few weights eventually though. I used to lift a lot, but took the time out to focus more on my energetics. The thing is, at work I need to lift things from time to time and my body now feels like mush when I do such things. So if I can just do enough to be competent, I'll be happy.

 

I kinda agree with Freeform on this, but the body also needs a fair amount of regular strength. I'm not saying you want to be benching 250 lbs, but compound lifts are a good supplement to everything else.

 

But sure, I'd prioritise things like cardio and stretching. Taiji and agility work are still my priorities!

Edited January 5, 2020 by Rara

[Taomeow]

My teacher is all for strength/power training -- with traditional taiji methods.  So he got us to practice pole shaking forms -- without using the arms, with routines developed to engage, strengthen and build up internal power that is not the kind that's "in the mind/spirit/yi" alone -- it involves core muscles/organs, alongside proprietary stuff of course -- qi, blood, LDT, martial applications.  Most moves involve generating complex motion patterns in the pole by turning it into a body part of sorts but not an extension of your arm as, e.g., with the sword -- rather, an extension growing straight out of your LDT -- 7 1/2 feet long and freakin' heavy.  Your arms will get plenty of muscle building action from just holding that thing and turning, coiling, supporting, coordinating the moves, no lifting of anything additional required for them to get a good workout.  To say nothing of the legs.  But the main action is in the internal muscles and organs gaining control, strength, mobility, resilience, all the good things.  This practice is physically rather challenging, but also exciting and fun, something I could never get myself to feel from any "reps" of anything. 

 

The interesting thing is that a beginner will invariably use external muscles instead (but hopefully not to the extent that might be detrimental to internal structure) because knowing how to use internal ones is proprietary territory of internal arts and that territory takes time to get to.  So maybe Dwai is right in his assertion that someone who already has internal workings down pat is way safer doing strength training with weights and such.  In fact, I was almost ready to add light kettlebells to my routine and got a couple, and that's when pole shaking was introduced.  So now they're collecting dust.  

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

My teacher is all for strength/power training -- with traditional taiji methods.  So he got us to practice pole shaking forms -- without using the arms, with routines developed to engage, strengthen and build up internal power that is not the kind that's "in the mind/spirit/yi" alone -- it involves core muscles/organs, alongside proprietary stuff of course -- qi, blood, LDT, martial applications.  Most moves involve generating complex motion patterns in the pole by turning it into a body part of sorts but not an extension of your arm as, e.g., with the sword -- rather, an extension growing straight out of your LDT -- 7 1/2 feet long and freakin' heavy.  Your arms will get plenty of muscle building action from just holding that thing and turning, coiling, supporting, coordinating the moves, no lifting of anything additional required for them to get a good workout.  To say nothing of the legs.  But the main action is in the internal muscles and organs gaining control, strength, mobility, resilience, all the good things.  This practice is physically rather challenging, but also exciting and fun, something I could never get myself to feel from any "reps" of anything. 

 

The interesting thing is that a beginner will invariably use external muscles instead (but hopefully not to the extent that might be detrimental to internal structure) because knowing how to use internal ones is proprietary territory of internal arts and that territory takes time to get to.  So maybe Dwai is right in his assertion that someone who already has internal workings down pat is way safer doing strength training with weights and such.  In fact, I was almost ready to add light kettlebells to my routine and got a couple, and that's when pole shaking was introduced.  So now they're collecting dust.  

The problem with living in a place where it’s freezing or below freezing for 4-5 months of the year presents a challenge in using the sword ( which gives a really good workout ) or the staff/spear. 
 

My taiji staff and swords have been collecting dust because of that. But I’ve fashioned a ‘pole shaking’ set using the Indian mace (10 lb) using the same movement principles. It’s a lot of fun to use.
 

Traditionally, the mace was used as a training tool for swords and spears too. The Indian clubs were used to train for double sword techniques (butterfly patterns etc). 

[Taomeow]

9 minutes ago, dwai said:

The problem with living in a place where it’s freezing or below freezing for 4-5 months of the year presents a challenge in using the sword ( which gives a really good workout ) or the staff/spear. 

 

I feel for you...  but I can't resist the temptation of sharing the picture of our annual New Year tradition -- January 1st  Penguin Plunge.  My teacher participated.  I will wait till at least April...   

 

 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

For those who are looking to build core strenght and such and already have at least an intermediate proficency in martial arts and long time basic sung training i can recommend trying to do it with a plate carrier, that is a military style upper torso body armor carrying vest.

Crossfit nerds have gone bananas on this training form but since i find their training style too destructive/unsafe to joints and spine in the long term i’ve tried to adapt PC-training to kung fu purposes.

 

Since the plates are solid and the design of the carrier, when worn correctly, it adds a top heavyness that really forces you to maintain proper relaxation and posture during footwork training and forms.

 

This of course also means shelling out for a decent quality yoked pc-vest with weights (i went for two plates for front and back, each ar 3.3 kg) which isn’t going to cost peanuts but it does ensure those plates will stay put on you, inside the vest (not sliding out and breaking your feet) and distribute the weight on the right places while you retain a fairly high range of motion. Do not buy cheap plate carriers, they’ll fail at the stitching or plate retention and you will be very sorry.

If you know someone doing crossfit training on the ambitious level ask them if you can borrow a vest from someone to try it out.

 

As far as i’ve tried it for shorter sessions the weight isn’t very noticeable at first, but you will feel it afterwards, and as all these power and strenght and proper relaxation things it’s a cumulative practice. Try doing horse stance to bow stance stepping patterns and you’ll notice results on your technique, power and strenght.

 

Add Iron Ring training on your forearms (strenght, momentum conservation and arm conditioning) and you’ll be doing fairly hard work that’ll increase core strenght and the transmission of power and structure in the gua, both upwards and downwards.

Coiling and turning doesnt seem to be affected in the same way with the pc-vest but i havent tried it very much yet, still sticking to basics and seeing if ilive to regret this investment...  

[waterdrop]

just to add  (personally im still confused but thanks to this kind of threads less and less) a video im watching now :
 

 

[Taomeow]

Here's a very simple analogy.  (Of course one has to be careful not to mistake analogies for the actual phenomena they stand for -- which are always more complex.)  

 

 

I like this one because it can illustrate what classical alchemical taoists want to transform into what and what they prefer to conserve rather than "transform."  Yes, they can burn the candle like everyone else -- even faster if they like, by adding some saltpeter and making it not just burn but explode.  But knowing that increasing the light of the spirit means sacrificing the body faster, one can consciously decide for oneself if that's what they're really after.  (And understand that you can't have it both ways. You can't eat your cake and have it too.  You can't transform your jing into qi and qi into shen and have your candle too.)  So -- knowing that, you can decide if you want to burn the candle or try to keep it as intact as possible.  Burn it fast and furious or be very conservative about it and light it only when absolutely necessary. 

 

If it's burning cleanly and evenly (to accomplish that is less than half the task, but without accomplishing it the task gets way harder), there's methods that can be then used to gather the light back into the flame and the flame back into the candle. 

 

And that's taoist alchemy.  The rest is just chemistry.    

[EmeraldHead]

Only CHI seems to have yin yang . As in practically not metaphorically/philosophically.

There's also yuan jing besides postnatal jing, and that's essentially 'higher' than postnatal, so it's more consciousness based than the postnatal 3. Why is it still called a jing? A yuan jing, a yuan chi and a yuan shen, they are something else that comes from somewhere else, maybe with entirely Different purposes/functions ? Why is that? I would imagine lack of names is not the reason So what's so central to all jings and chis and shens?

[Mig]

Which jing are we talking about? Is it fājìn, 發勁), sometimes misspelled as fajing or the concept of jīng (精), which literally means "essence."??

[Master Logray]

The attitude towards Jing is to conserve and preserve, nothing else.