What is Jing ... really?

[anshino23]

So... what is Jing really?

 

Some say it can be increased by doing certain things like horse stance. Some people seem to think it's the same as hormones like testosterone. Other seem to think it's the potential of cells or something like stem cells if it had a homologous physical attribute. Others say it is more related to letting go of habits and becoming deeply still. 

 

Would love to hear your thoughts! Thanks!

[anshino23]

Also paging @freeform because I've been tormenting him with my questions on this topic through PM. Might help others around here wondering the same if he'll share his thoughts from his training on this elusive topic!  

[senseless virtue]

Jing is Shakti. Treat her well and she will be a most wonderful and enchanting mistress for all time.

 

Shakti is your vitality. She takes on many flavors and gives your life its meaning.

 

Some people treat Shakti badly. They neglect her and abuse her by not letting her be free and empowered, but instead subject her to indulgent behavior and psychological outbursts as if she was a mere slave maid. These people then go thinking what they have done wrong to feel so drained and sick.

 

Praising Shakti is the original and ultimate Feminism. Think about it. Feel into it.

Edited December 16, 2019 by virtue

[dwai]

Jing is a condensed form of energy. What is energy? It is the creative power of consciousness or awareness.

 

As movement seems to appear in awareness, it forms what is called spiritual power or light. This light slows down to form what is called Qi. This Qi then further slows down to form jing, which in turn slows down to form matter. They are all the same thing, but at different rates of vibration.  
 

And the corollary thereof is,  that spiritual Light, as the first activity of awareness is limitless in its range and scope. So it encompasses entire universes.

 

Qi by virtue of being slowed down light, has limits in range and scope. 

 

Jing being further slowed down light, is further limited in range and scope, as it slows down further, it forms matter, which is orders of magnitude more limited in range and scope. That is why matter seems to be definitive in form, which energies are less so. 
 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by dwai

[Nintendao]

On 8/19/2019 at 3:58 PM, Taomeow said:

Jing in its broadest sense is memory -- memory of self, of how to be yourself.

 

On 10/19/2019 at 12:26 AM, manitou said:

Matter knows its shape.

 

The jing of the forest, the woodcutter, and the carpenter, to name but a few, inform the wood table, on which I now write. Interdependent co-arising.

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Nintendao said:

 

 

The jing of the forest, the woodcutter, and the carpenter, to name but a few, inform the wood table, on which I now write. Interdependent co-arising.

 

Ah, here's where it gets interesting.  The forest, the woodcutter, and the carpenter all contributed to the qi of the wood table on which you now write.  If you bang it around and make its legs rickety, you will have diminished its qi.  If you become a famous writer and this table winds up on display in a museum, or sold at Sothesby's, you will have increased its qi.  However, none of it will affect its jing, which is dead.  Manufactured things can have qi, plenty of qi.  They can have shen.  But not jing. 

 

Jing is at the core of that elusive difference between what's possible and what's impossible in the course of "natural" developments.  It's possible for a tree to become a table.  It's impossible for a table to become a tree.  Of course there's always magic.   Barring that, jing is what you get, qi and shen is what you do with it.  Not a whole lot you can do to animate a dead tree.  So, qi doesn't have to be "living," shen doesn't have to be "living," but jing is either jing or dead jing. 

 

AI can have qi, even shen, but not jing.  Jing is natural developmental history.  Neither a table nor AI are an outcome of any such process.  Simply put, they don't have natural ancestors.  Nothing unfolded naturally into a table or a computer.  Someone had to lose his or her ancestral jing to make them.  They don't come from the Valley Spirit.  Things that don't come from the Valley Spirit don't have jing.  Even if they're self-replicating (it's quite possible to make self-replicating robots), they're not replicating jing -- they're replicating dead jing.     

 

[Nintendao]

I'm going to have to re-read that one a few times, Meow-sifu!

 

 

Always another piece to this puzzle..

 

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, virtue said:

Jing is Shakti. Treat her well and she will be a most wonderful and enchanting mistress for all time.

 

Shakti is your vitality. She takes on many flavors and gives your life its meaning.

 

Some people treat Shakti badly. They neglect her and abuse her by not letting her be free and empowered, but instead subject her to indulgent behavior and psychological outbursts as if she was a mere slave maid. These people then go thinking what they have done wrong to feel so drained and sick.

 

Praising Shakti is the original and ultimate Feminism. Think about it. Feel into it.

 

 

What a wonderful post .

 

Why ?

 

Because it resonates cross culturally and temporally  (and for a 'spiritual anthropologist ' , that's essential  ) .  The most recent and the most ancient relevant cultures  know, revere and teach this at their heart, regardless of  whatever names and dressings they put upon it .

 

And also ... becasue it works !    To this I can attest in my life . 

 

All one has to do  is the reverse of  paragraph ;

 

" Some people treat Shakti badly. They neglect her and abuse her by not letting her be free and empowered, but instead subject her to indulgent behavior and psychological outbursts as if she was a mere slave maid. These people then go thinking what they have done wrong to feel so drained and sick.  " 

 

And 'wonderful things'   will open up for you .   Or as my teacher said to me ; " If you follow these teachings and  DO  it ,  then , just ask MUM for whatever you need  ..... and she will give it to you . "

 

Like I said ,   this I can attest to  in my life  -  its   R E A L  ......  manifested  ! 

 

Oh, and regarding 'jing'  , its art of the above , if you  get into the 'natural state'  , life is a charge ... you will be buzzing just becasue you are alive  ... even if you might die at any moment .... even if you dont have strong after life 'beliefs' .

 

Ziiiing !   " Energised enthusiasm"    ....   just for life !  .... and everything .             (yeah, yeah; good exercise and diet , yatter yatter)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

29 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

I'm going to have to re-read that one a few times, Meow-sifu!

 

 

Always another piece to this puzzle..

 

 

She means the Khu is in the Khabs   NOT  the   Khabs is in the Khu .

 

There !  Glad I could clear things up for you .    

[Nungali]

 

 

'Down here'  Ninni , we call that 'giving someone a top spin' . 

 

( It is often accompanied by placing the person in a 'friendly headlock' and  and scuffing your palm repeatedly across their forehead, as if trying to get a top to rotate rapidly  ...... since I am not there , you will have to do this part yourself )

[Nintendao]

And just when I thought it was safe to go to bed!

First I'll do just enough googling to get the visions of Khu Kebabs dancing in my head.

[Earl Grey]

22 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

And just when I thought it was safe to go to bed!

First I'll do just enough googling to get the visions of Khu Kebabs dancing in my head.

Oi! ‘Tis the season! Dreidels!

[freeform]

It's a good question - with a very complex topic. There are many levels of 'depth' you can go into it... There are many contexts - jing in qigong is one context, jing in Chinese medicine is another, jing in alchemy yet another...

 

So I'll try my best relate the fundamentals as best I can - mostly at the context of medicine or development in the human body...

 

Dwai put it quite nicely - Jing, Qi and Shen exist along a spectrum of vibration. They are discussed as separate things, but in fact, they're aspects of the same thing, just at different stages of the spectrum - from the most ethereal to the most corporeal... Jing is at the densest end of the spectrum - before it becomes matter. It is not matter. It is not fluids. It isn't sperm. It's not a substance...

 

You can think of jing in two ways - as a 'fuel' and as a 'blueprint' for the unfoldment of life processes...

 

Jing is also split into two major categories: Post-natal jing and Pre-natal jing.

 

Your prenatal jing conditions much of your constitution on a blueprint level. It is informed by many aspects - everything from karma to your bloodline - your parents, and the generations before... it's also strongly informed by astrological factors at the moment of conception and birth... and it is strongly informed by the 9 months spent in the womb - so your mother's quality of postnatal jing at that time - her qi, her mind and emotional state.

 

Jing manifests into the body at the area of the Ming Fire (in the area between the kidneys, ming men etc.) The "fire" aspect of Ming Fire is that spark of life created at the moment of conception and is the catalyst of moving jing into the process of unfoldment of life... The "ming" part is the unfoldment of life and its circumstances - to put it far too simplistically - your 'destiny'.

 

Some issues people find are often the result of a malfunction of the ming fire - meaning that jing isn't properly expressed into the life unfoldment process and you're unable to follow the path of your ming - so life becomes difficult and precarious and you feel lost. The ming fire is often damaged by a strong emotional trauma - usually in the form of some sexual assault or by being forced or dominated in a way that diminishes your sense of self. You can often see this manifesting in a person's body, where it seems that the growth of the body is halted at the stage of development when that trauma occurred. Not that you 'look young' - but your bone structure and body mechanics are frozen at an earlier developmental stage.

 

Anyway...

 

The kidneys are the root of prenatal jing. They're like the physical manifestation of prenatal jing - and they control the process of growth and decline - ageing - as well as the natural cycles of change as a result of ageing - such as puberty, menopause etc... there is a lot of interesting theory about these cycles, the numerology around them and so on - all in the yellow emperor's classic - so I won't go into more details here.

 

Postnatal Jing is rooted in the spleen and stomach! So here's a clue on how to improve postnatal jing... Another clue is that the spleen and stomach are in charge of creating qi in the body... also in charge of building muscle and 'solidity' of the body... and the Yi - or the mind...

 

Improving postnatal jing is the focus of Yang Sheng Fa - basically the healthy living protocols... and it's not surprising what they talk about considering the clues above.

 

Diet is the major contributing force to both postnatal jing and normal people's Qi (spleen and stomach are in charge of digesting and processing food to turn into 'energy'). Along with diet - it's about exercise (muscles), rest, sleep, and the quality of one's mind. This is the fundamentals - good sleep, enough rest, enough exercise, a good diet, no over thinking or too much mental stress (breathing is related to that) as well as moderating sexual activity (for men in particular) and harmonising the menstrual period with the moon cycle for women. Beyond this, we have other ways of working with postnatal jing for specific practices - such as stilling one's desires and breaking habitual patterns of thinking and acting - but attempting this before having a solid foundation is not only pointless but potentially hazardous.

 

Jing travels through the 8 extraordinary channels (not so much the organ meridians) - it moves to Guan Yuan point (bellow belly button) where it enters the uterus and is lost through periods for women. In women, it also travels up to a point in between the breasts and fills the breasts (particularly during lactation). In men, it converts to sperm and sexual fluid and is lost through orgasm and ejaculation.

 

Jing will also travel to the Hui Yin - the perineum where it transforms into base desires. A lot of systems and practices use the perineum because that's where jing descends to. But a very important piece of the puzzle is often left out - and that's that one must still the base desires before working with the perineum. Because without stilling the base desires through meditative practice, you can inflame base desires and turn them into psychological issues as well as unethical behaviour... who's seen unethical behaviour and sexual deviancy in the spiritual arts?

 

Back to kidneys. Jing also controls the kidney Qi system - Kidney Yin and Kidney Yang - these are the manifestation of Yin and Yang principles in the body. Kidney yin governs the cooling of the body, the creation of fluids etc. Kidney yang governs the warmth of the body and sexual desire. The balance between kidney yin and yang are behind a lot of the problems we find in the body. Too much yang, the body becomes fiery, hot, quickly burns up, strong desire. Too much yin - the body becomes cold, damp, slow sluggish low will. These, in turn, affect the other organ systems (heart palpitations, heated liver with out of control kidney yang - damp stagnated spleen, contracted, phlegmy lungs with too much yin).

 

The kidneys are the root of your constitutional health - low vitality and energy and 'lust for life' as well as a weak immune system are all usually rooted in a kidney issue.

 

Kidney jing also grows into the 'marrow' and the brain... if kidney jing is weak - bones get weak (osteoporosis, teeth falling out etc), back (spine) hurts, the brain doesn't get nourished and you develop mental fog, fuzzy thinking, dementia, Alzheimer's etc.

 

Sooo... I wonder how the horse stance relates to any of that
 

[anshino23]

Very interesting. Thank you everyone for providing your input and thoughts on the matter. 

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Jing travels through the 8 extraordinary channels (not so much the organ meridians) - it moves to Guan Yuan point (bellow belly button) where it enters the uterus and is lost through periods for women. In women, it also travels up to a point in between the breasts and fills the breasts (particularly during lactation). In men, it converts to sperm and sexual fluid and is lost through orgasm and ejaculation.

 

Jing will also travel to the Hui Yin - the perineum where it transforms into base desires. A lot of systems and practices use the perineum because that's where jing descends to. But a very important piece of the puzzle is often left out - and that's that one must still the base desires before working with the perineum. Because without stilling the base desires through meditative practice, you can inflame base desires and turn them into psychological issues as well as unethical behaviour... who's seen unethical behaviour and sexual deviancy in the spiritual arts?

 

Back to kidneys. Jing also controls the kidney Qi system - Kidney Yin and Kidney Yang - these are the manifestation of Yin and Yang principles in the body. Kidney yin governs the cooling of the body, the creation of fluids etc. Kidney yang governs the warmth of the body and sexual desire. The balance between kidney yin and yang are behind a lot of the problems we find in the body. Too much yang, the body becomes fiery, hot, quickly burns up, strong desire. Too much yin - the body becomes cold, damp, slow sluggish low will. These, in turn, affect the other organ systems (heart palpitations, heated liver with out of control kidney yang - damp stagnated spleen, contracted, phlegmy lungs with too much yin).

 

The kidneys are the root of your constitutional health - low vitality and energy and 'lust for life' as well as a weak immune system are all usually rooted in a kidney issue.

 

Kidney jing also grows into the 'marrow' and the brain... if kidney jing is weak - bones get weak (osteoporosis, teeth falling out etc), back (spine) hurts, the brain doesn't get nourished and you develop mental fog, fuzzy thinking, dementia, Alzheimer's etc.

 

Sooo... I wonder how the horse stance relates to any of that
 

 

When you speak of Jing travelling through here, it appears to be functioning as a substance. I assume this is all post-natal Jing you are talking about in such a case?

 

The last part you mention with kidney jing being weak where bones get weak (osteoporosis, teeth falling out) and the back hurting, brain doesn't get nourished etc., this seems to me very associated with overall hormonal and endocrine health from a Western perspective. For instance in both men and women, testosterone and estrogen are associated with all the things you just mentioned there as being related to kidney jing, and as they decline either in men and women, there is higher risk of all the above-mentioned "(bones get weak (osteoporosis, teeth falling out etc), back (spine) hurts, the brain doesn't get nourished and you develop mental fog, fuzzy thinking, dementia, Alzheimer's etc)"

 

The relationship to horse stance is similar to the relationship to the findings in Western science that found that doing squats and deadlifts actively improves hormonal health such as testosterone and also reduces risk of osteoporosis. We also know that resistance training reduces risk of dementia and improves cognitive functioning quite significantly in the elderly. See here.

 

Quote

Results indicate that 24 weeks of resistance training, including squat and deadlift exercises, is effective in increasing BMD (bone-mass density) in young healthy men.

In a subgroup analysis of the Cochrane review and previous meta-analyses, RE (resistance exercise) has resulted in a significant improvement of BMD in the lumbar spine and femur neck in postmenopausal women 

 

Quote

 

In conclusion, the data presented here indicate that strength training can induce growth hormone and testosterone release, regardless of age, but that the elderly response does not equal that of the young.

 

 

 

 

I would imagine horse stance would do something similar by stressing the same muscle groups involved. 

 

Quote

Ming Men and Testosterone

Is there a link between Ming Men and testosterone levels?

Perhaps. What Chinese Medicine calls 'Jing-Essence' is the source of our life energy and very closely linked with Ming Men. (You could say that the Fire of the Gate of Vitality comes from the oil-reserves of the Jing-essence.) They both derive from the area of the Kidneys and one might say are regulated by your Kidney Qi.

The original idea behind Jing-Essence was that you received a fixed quantity of it at birth and gradually used it up through life. If you lived a very stressful, disease-ridden or draining life (too many illnesses, poor nutrition, too many drugs, too much sex in the case of men, etc) you'd get through it faster, so your teeth would fall out earlier, your bones grow brittle and you'd age faster.

It was said that you needed many pints of blood to create one drop of Jing-essence and that the best way to do this was to lead a life unhampered by factors that drained Jing-essence. But Chinese medicine didn't have our understanding of the glandular system which, even now, it approaches basically from another direction.

However, people can increase their testosterone levels and high testosterone is fairly like having more Ming Men Fire and Jing Essence.

https://www.acupuncture-points.org/ming-men.html

 

So I believe that's how the reasoning came to be   That and all the Shaolin monks doing it as part of their foundation training and Drew (voidisyinyang) talking ad nauseum about it.  

 

Also, I'm curious. When is Jing the highest? I've heard differing views on this. For instance, some say that Jing is the highest in babies. But others say that for alchemical purposes, actually Jing is the highest at 16 years of age, and you can't begin proper alchemical training until that age. Well, what happens around 16 of age? From western medical point of view, the hormonal system is at its peak functioning. So it seems there's some degree of relationship between the hormonal systems efficiency and Jing.

 

What happens according to the alchemical view that is different from when one was a baby with one's Jing that allows one to begin the training proper?

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Your prenatal jing conditions much of your constitution on a blueprint level. It is informed by many aspects - everything from karma to your bloodline - your parents, and the generations before... it's also strongly informed by astrological factors at the moment of conception and birth... and it is strongly informed by the 9 months spent in the womb - so your mother's quality of postnatal jing at that time - her qi, her mind and emotional state.

 

This sounds like DNA and epigenetics - "environmental" (inner and outer) factors impacting the fetus in the womb during development (9 months spent in the womb). Fascinating stuff. 

Thank you for the discussion  

Edited December 18, 2019 by anshino23

[freeform]

34 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

When you speak of Jing travelling through here, it appears to be functioning as a substance.

 

Yes - we're using a mental model here... you can think of it as an energetic substance moving... just as at highschool we're taught that electrons are like little planets spinning in an orbit around a nucleus of an atom - we know that it doesn't really work this way, but it's a helpful mental model.

 

1 hour ago, anshino23 said:

ou received a fixed quantity of it at birth and gradually used it up through life

 

If what I wrote above is a 'highschool understanding' of jing - then the quote above is like a kindergarten version - still useful, but very limited.

 

38 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

I assume this is all post-natal Jing you are talking about in such a case?

 

Both actually.

 

43 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

this seems to me very associated with overall hormonal and endocrine health from a Western perspective.

 

Sure - there seems to be a correlation between some aspects of 'kidney jing' and the endocrine system. (There is also some correlation between metabolic processes - ATP creation and Qi)

 

I understand that correlations are interesting and fascinating - but it's important that if we want to accomplish the aims of Daoism, that we need to work within their mental framework - you wouldn't use the meridian system to inform surgery, and you shouldn't use endocrine theory to actually work on jing.

 

If you're choosing to use the Daoist approach for self-transformation, it's best to use the Daoist map to walk that path. This is because the Daoist theory is much more nuanced - it's looking at the process as it happens before it becomes physically manifest.

 

So yes - there are lots of correlations - I also find them interesting and I believe more will come about as science improves its tools and processes - for example, their relatively new discovery of the importance of the fascial system - and even the brand new discovery of the interstitium...

 

But something like this:

 

55 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

But Chinese medicine didn't have our understanding of the glandular system which, even now, it approaches basically from another direction.

However, people can increase their testosterone levels and high testosterone is fairly like having more Ming Men Fire and Jing Essence.

 

Is troubling... as it's taking a holistic model and chopping it up to support a very narrow, simplistic model. This results in lots of problems. For example - remember that kidney Yin and kidney Yang create a balance... adding exogenous testosterone - or even forcing the body to produce endogenous testosterone upsets this balance... so in some cases you eventually end up with degeneration of the glands, extreme weight gain and growth of breast tissue (extreme kidney yin imbalance) - think ex-soviet shot-putters ...

 

So it's worth bearing in mind that it's all very nuanced... The guidelines and practices designed by the Daoists aren't the result of not having enough understanding and technology - but that they are the result of holistic insight and design... It's important to remember that the aim is spiritual growth - not strong bones - although strong bones will help spiritual growth, focusing on strong bones in isolation to spiritual growth might result in strong bones, but also a diminished capacity for spiritual growth.

 

So squatting heavy weights might increase testosterone and it might increase bone mass - but it will diminish your ability to Song - it will stop the capacity of your mind-fluid to enter deep into your tissues - as a result it will stop your ability to enter absorption, your ability to generate massive amounts of Qi, your ability to sink the Qi etc etc.

 

There are always cause and effect relationships that we simply don't understand unless we're at the stage of development where we have full causal insight. Until then all our attempts to change, improve or accelerated a traditional system will be coming from a very limited understanding and based on our preferences and predilections of our acquired minds!

 

Modern technology can't 'improve' Daoist practice - because it doesn't work at the holistic causal level. A fully realised Daoist master could use modern technology to improve practices - but that's because they do have a holistic insight at the causal level.

 

Hope that helps!

 

PS - oh - yes so regarding horse stance - it could potentially help improve postnatal jing to a small extent, but no more than most other exercises - and not when you're tired, or of a certain age or with another combination of factors... What can improve jing in a holistic way is Yang Sheng Fa

 

[anshino23]

10 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Yes - we're using a mental model here... you can think of it as an energetic substance moving... just as at highschool we're taught that electrons are like little planets spinning in an orbit around a nucleus of an atom - we know that it doesn't really work this way, but it's a helpful mental model.

 

 

If what I wrote above is a 'highschool understanding' of jing - then the quote above is like a kindergarten version - still useful, but very limited.

 

 

Both actually.

 

 

Sure - there seems to be a correlation between some aspects of 'kidney jing' and the endocrine system. (There is also some correlation between metabolic processes - ATP creation and Qi)

 

I understand that correlations are interesting and fascinating - but it's important that if we want to accomplish the aims of Daoism, that we need to work within their mental framework - you wouldn't use the meridian system to inform surgery, and you shouldn't use endocrine theory to actually work on jing.

 

If you're choosing to use the Daoist approach for self-transformation, it's best to use the Daoist map to walk that path. This is because the Daoist theory is much more nuanced - it's looking at the process as it happens before it becomes physically manifest.

 

So yes - there are lots of correlations - I also find them interesting and I believe more will come about as science improves its tools and processes - for example, their relatively new discovery of the importance of the fascial system - and even the brand new discovery of the interstitium...

 

But something like this:

 

 

Is troubling... as it's taking a holistic model and chopping it up to support a very narrow, simplistic model. This results in lots of problems. For example - remember that kidney Yin and kidney Yang create a balance... adding exogenous testosterone - or even forcing the body to produce endogenous testosterone upsets this balance... so in some cases you eventually end up with degeneration of the glands, extreme weight gain and growth of breast tissue (extreme kidney yin imbalance) - think ex-soviet shot-putters ...

 

So it's worth bearing in mind that it's all very nuanced... The guidelines and practices designed by the Daoists aren't the result of not having enough understanding and technology - but that they are the result of holistic insight and design... It's important to remember that the aim is spiritual growth - not strong bones - although strong bones will help spiritual growth, focusing on strong bones in isolation to spiritual growth might result in strong bones, but also a diminished capacity for spiritual growth.

 

So squatting heavy weights might increase testosterone and it might increase bone mass - but it will diminish your ability to Song - it will stop the capacity of your mind-fluid to enter deep into your tissues - as a result it will stop your ability to enter absorption, your ability to generate massive amounts of Qi, your ability to sink the Qi etc etc.

 

There are always cause and effect relationships that we simply don't understand unless we're at the stage of development where we have full causal insight. Until then all our attempts to change, improve or accelerated a traditional system will be coming from a very limited understanding and based on our preferences and predilections of our acquired minds!

 

Modern technology can't 'improve' Daoist practice - because it doesn't work at the holistic causal level. A fully realised Daoist master could use modern technology to improve practices - but that's because they do have a holistic insight at the causal level.

 

Hope that helps!

 

PS - oh - yes so regarding horse stance - it could potentially help improve postnatal jing to a small extent, but no more than most other exercises - and not when you're tired, or of a certain age or with another combination of factors... What can improve jing in a holistic way is Yang Sheng Fa

 

 

Wonderful, wonderful! Thank you for this illuminating reply. 

 

 

Quote

Modern technology can't 'improve' Daoist practice - because it doesn't work at the holistic causal level. A fully realised Daoist master could use modern technology to improve practices - but that's because they do have a holistic insight at the causal level.

 

Seems like the ideal is to find such a master.  

[freeform]

12 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

Seems like the ideal is to find such a master.  

 

Except you might find that they think the existing tools within the Internal Arts are better than modern tools... That's been my experience when I've asked... maybe it's because it has many generations of efficacy behind it?

[dwai]

I know some folks don’t like to mix systems, but to put the light/Shen/Qi/jing continuum in a body-based approach, Light is nondual and is the power of pure awareness which is the ground of being,  and Shen corresponds with the causal body,  Qi with the astral or energy body abs jing with the physical body. 

Most people believe the relationship is inverted - physical contains energy contains causal , if they believe it at all. 
 

The fact is quite the opposite. The physical body and physical universe is a fraction of ‘reality’.  

In the mahanirvana tantra, Lord Shiva tells “I can pack your entire material universe into a single mustard seed”.  I know obsessing about the body and it’s vagaries are natural because most of us identify with the physical body more than anything else. But when we realize our true nature is awareness, then these things simply fade away from focus. 

 

[anshino23]

12 minutes ago, freeform said:

Except you might find that they think the existing tools within the Internal Arts are better than modern tools... That's been my experience when I've asked... maybe it's because it has many generations of efficacy behind it?

 

Haha, that's a fair point. But I meant more in terms of how to setup your daily life using modern tools that could help cultivation. For instance, there's a lot of research lately showing that low-level light therapy (LLLT) and infrared (~670nm and ~800nm) is incredibly helpful for healing, the nervous system, etc. And no doubt getting enough sun exposure would be far more beneficial than that, and living in a temple or near one would be amazing, but for householders that live in the wrong environment for their energetic make-up, the advice of a genuine Daoist master in utilising modern tools to sort of "offset" those aspects would be amazing. 

 

But maybe they'd offset them with some Fu talisman rather than light therapy. I wouldn't know  

Edited December 18, 2019 by anshino23

[freeform]

11 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

But I meant more in terms of how to setup your daily life using modern tools that could help cultivation.

 

Yeah, that's true.

 

But in reality, most of the higher-level teachers are a complete conundrum... if asked something like this they might say 'why would you want to help cultivation!?'... Meaning that they see something in the quality of your mind and your approach to training that adding tools would be detrimental for practice - with another person they might suggest all kinds of extra modern tools and things... This is how they work because they can see at a causal level - what is appropriate and what is inappropriate...

 

Regarding modern tools... I know that using mains electricity is a thing in some schools

 

16 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

light therapy

 

Oh the Daoists (and the Hindus!) were onto it way before any modern research At a certain stage - the light of the moon and the light from the sun is used in particular ways to affect some parts of the deeper channel system - Daoist light therapy 

 

[freeform]

23 minutes ago, dwai said:

Most people believe the relationship is inverted - physical contains energy contains causal , if they believe it at all.

 

Yes exactly.

 

Daoist creation theory is very clear on what comes first!

 

The physical-first model is born of this yearning to marry their modern scientific world view with the ancient spiritual world view - it's quite a subtle, but profound error.

[freeform]

5 hours ago, anshino23 said:

Also, I'm curious. When is Jing the highest? I've heard differing views on this. For instance, some say that Jing is the highest in babies. But others say that for alchemical purposes, actually Jing is the highest at 16 years of age, and you can't begin proper alchemical training until that age. Well, what happens around 16 of age?

 

Actually the peak age is 7 in girls and 8 in boys - if you start training at that age, it's meant to be far easier to achieve advanced stages very quickly... but it does mean that you'll never have a normal life... and you would still need a very high-level teacher...

 

The cycles of change is an interesting aspect of the study of jing - yellow emperor's classic covers it. Everything from the moment of conception - through the period in the womb and throughout life.

 

When you're older it's harder - you have to go through a lot of difficult alchemical work to restore your prenatal jing and undo all that life you've managed to live

 

But at least you get to have a bit of worldly fun in!

[Miffymog]

God damn it!

 

I  love reading these ideas, which is why I enjoyed reading Damo's books, because they described many of these Eastern thoughts - but I just cant bring myself to believe in them I'm afraid.

 

There are some mathematical concepts about the possibility of time travel.

 

But there's an argument that the only universe is the one that is currently unfolding in this moment, along with all the energy contained in matter, both in movement and substance. So you can't travel to another one, as where would the energy for that one come from?

 

This is all kind of theoretical, but I'm definitely of the idea that time travel isn't possible, due to the above reason.

 

I then extend this concept to jing, qi and shen. I've heard the idea that energy of a higher vibration exists, and only when it reduces its vibration does it then become solid.

 

My only problem with this is I find it tricky to conceive of all this higher vibrational energy that has the potential to turn into physical energy, just sitting there in this state, just beyond reach. How much of it is there? How can it exist with out having any significant impact on our reality?

 

Is it that most of it has already condensed? Or is there just not much left in this higher state?

 

Fortunately, I don't need to worry about it too much. I reflect on that which impacts on my life and don't worry about things I can nether conceive nor experience.

 

But maybe one day I'll get a feel of it ...

[anshino23]

10 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Actually the peak age is 7 in girls and 8 in boys - if you start training at that age, it's meant to be far easier to achieve advanced stages very quickly... but it does mean that you'll never have a normal life... and you would still need a very high-level teacher...

 

The cycles of change is an interesting aspect of the study of jing - yellow emperor's classic covers it. Everything from the moment of conception - through the period in the womb and throughout life.

 

When you're older it's harder - you have to go through a lot of difficult alchemical work to restore your prenatal jing and undo all that life you've managed to live

 

But at least you get to have a bit of worldly fun in!

 

Wow, yeah, makes sense. I think Wang Liping was taught since 8 years old by several masters, at least according to the biography. Probably many masters did the same to ensure certain lines stayed intact. 

What does restoring prenatal jing entail exactly from an alchemical point of view? Is it at the point where Jade Fluid is turned in the orbit or at a later stage?

 

Don't know how much fun it was to be honest. At least I had such a big bite of it that what remains is a lot of world weariness from that. It was impermanent and ultimately all of it let to suffering. Paying the price. Karma. First Noble Truth....

 

But I guess part of the spiritual path or the essential part of is really knowing what to do and what not do. And that this gets more and more refined at higher levels. 

 

Though, maybe how I feel just reflects my kidney issues. Fun! 

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

What does restoring prenatal jing entail exactly from an alchemical point of view? Is it at the point where Jade Fluid is turned in the orbit or at a later stage?

 

Sorry - too much to get into!