Daoist associations?

[SirPalomides]

9 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

 

That is because you haven't yourself spent any time on the DDJ thread at all! Who was the first person to write down any comprehensive work on Daoist thought and practices? What great written work is used as a foundation knowledge by virtually all Dao sects that have anything about them? Who is celebrated as the Father of Dao and a top Immortal?

 

1. Daoism did not exist at the time the DDJ was written and compiled. That book was adopted into something called "Daoism", and its reputed author adopted as the father of this Daoism, by people you rail against as the Funny Hats and Robes Brigade. Your attitude here is like fundamentalist protestants railing against scholars while depending entirely on translations and texts produced by generations of countless scholars.

 

2. Numerous important practices and principles of Daoism come from sources older than, and independent of, the DDJ.

[liminal_luke]

Daoist practice, if it means anything at all, leads to internal shifts -- in the body, the mind, consciousness itself.  These shifts don´t necessarily announce themselves in the clothes someone wears, a person´s social associations, or even their knowledge of Daoist manuscripts.  I think the question of whether or not to join up with groups of people claiming Daoist affiliation is a personal one: will my connection with this person or organization further my spiritual growth?  Most would agree it´s helpful to have a teacher.  Beyond that, the decision gets trickier.  I´m glad spiritual organizations exist for those who feel drawn to that path.  To each their own. 

[SirPalomides]

Also, Flowinghands, what the heck does participating in an internet thread have to do with someone's understanding of the DDJ or Daoism? Are you actually asserting that the core of Daoism is your thread on this forum?

Edited February 3, 2020 by SirPalomides

[SirPalomides]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

Daoist practice, if it means anything at all, leads to internal shifts -- in the body, the mind, consciousness itself.  These shifts don´t necessarily announce themselves in the clothes someone wears, a person´s social associations, or even their knowledge of Daoist manuscripts.  I think the question of whether or not to join up with groups of people claiming Daoist affiliation is a personal one: will my connection with this person or organization further my spiritual growth?  Most would agree it´s helpful to have a teacher.  Beyond that, the decision gets trickier.  I´m glad spiritual organizations exist for those who feel drawn to that path.  To each their own. 

 

I agree with that. In this case we are talking about teachers who present themselves, and ground their legitimacy in, their relation to specific lineages and traditions, and it is legitimate to discuss how what they're doing accords with those traditions. And if there is a departure, that is not necessarily a bad thing- I am sympathetic to the idea that strict Quanzhen monasticism is not necessarily something readily importable into, say, Houston Texas, but a modified- relaxed? Quanzhen-derived practice could be.  But the departure should be acknowledged.  

[SirPalomides]

As an example of why I think this is important- if I take this three year course (online or in person)- and am ordained as a Zhengyi daoshi, will I be prepared to competently offer a Jiao ritual, or at least play a supporting role in one? My guess, based on everything I've seen about this key rite, is definitely not. It takes years of training and practice. Suppose a Zhengyi priest comes to town and says to me, "So, you're daoshi of my lineage, wonderful! I'll be offering a three day Jiao ritual for the community here. Can you assist with X performance?" Me: "Uh... I don't know all those steps." Priest: "Oh, okay. How about playing Y flute melodies?" Me: "Uh... uh..." I can imagine the three-year course can cover some of this, but hardly in a way that would be up to snuff.

[senseless virtue]

56 minutes ago, Nathan said:

2. I already did answer your question, but here it is again:

"They are no longer here. They never taught nor ordained Westerners and Americans. They didn't have to deal with the PRC. They don't much have a say anymore. Regardless, it seems that the requirement for celibacy is not set-in-stone within Quanzhen or Longmen."

This certainly doesn't answer my question, but it does highlight how a spiritual disconnection is apparent.

 

The immortals and enlightened masters are here, now and always. Anyone can search their own heart for that connection and pray for their blessings.

 

Whether any answers are directly intelligible is a matter of spiritual maturity and sincerity.

 

It's not unprecedented (in any true spiritual lineage) that lineage founders act as guardians and arrive every once in a while to instruct faithful disciples. Same goes for sanctioning the altering of regulations if it needs to be done to accommodate changing times.

 

One prominent example of the latter is Tibetan Bön Buddhism. Their dzogchen teachings were previously transmitted only in secret and kept hidden, but lineage guardians came to the dreams of the head monk and told that the teachings would perish if not opened up to everyone. This level of heart-to-heart communication is what happens in living traditions.

Edited February 3, 2020 by virtue

[silent thunder]

She who recognizes the miracle of the ordinary... connects with dao.

 

"Can you realize the miracle playing out in a pile of dog shit,

slowly melting in a pool of fetid water warmed by the sun?"

 

There are more miracles playing out in a square yard of 'ordinary earth'

than in all tomes, ebooks and manuscripts of history,

in all the libraries of man.

 

To argue over the finger is to miss what the finger points to... and yet.

What glory in the act of a finger, being capable of pointing...

[flowing hands]

4 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

 

1. Daoism did not exist at the time the DDJ was written and compiled. That book was adopted into something called "Daoism", and its reputed author adopted as the father of this Daoism, by people you rail against as the Funny Hats and Robes Brigade. Your attitude here is like fundamentalist protestants railing against scholars while depending entirely on translations and texts produced by generations of countless scholars.

 

2. Numerous important practices and principles of Daoism come from sources older than, and independent of, the DDJ.

 

What!! Then why did Lei Erh write about Dao? Where are you getting such nonsense from? You desperately need to look at the history of Dao and educate yourself. The term 'Dao' is made up of two pictograms; a leg meaning to walk and an ancient shaman wearing ceremonial head dress of deer antlers. The deer antlers were thought to help with communication with the spirits. So we have 'to walk in a wise way'. Robes and funny hats came a long time after Lei Erh was given the title of the father of Daoism.

Your attitude here is that of complete ignorance. There is no significant work that remains older than the DDJ, only Huang Di and the  I Ching, which deal with neidan and divination. There is no significant Daoist work that deals with all the aspects of Dao in the entire history of Dao other than the DDJ or the writings of Zuang Shi, these remain the principle works of Daoism. I am relying on my teacher. Others here may rely on sects of antiquity, 1000 times passed on and probably is completely different to the original. Mine is from the original source.

[SirPalomides]

2 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

Others here may rely on sects of antiquity, 1000 times passed on and probably is completely different to the original. Mine is from the original source.

 

This is exactly the way fundamentalist Baptists talk. Good luck with that!

[flowing hands]

2 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

 

This is exactly the way fundamentalist Baptists talk. Good luck with that!

 

You really have no answer other than a stupid one, good luck with being so ignorant!

[SirPalomides]

1 minute ago, flowing hands said:

 

You really have no answer other than a stupid one, good luck with being so ignorant!

 

Don't get grumpy, dude. Wu wei, be water, etc. etc. etc.

[flowing hands]

4 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

 

Don't get grumpy, dude. Wu wei, be water, etc. etc. etc.

 

 I'm not grumpy nor am I a dude, I am convinced you wouldn't even know the proper meaning of wu wei or where it comes from and how it is expressed in nature.

[SirPalomides]

10 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

 

 I'm not grumpy nor am I a dude, I am convinced you wouldn't even know the proper meaning of wu wei or where it comes from and how it is expressed in nature.

 

Trust me, I know what I'm talking about. I read the Tao of Pooh once.

[Walker]

15 hours ago, flowing hands said:

@Walker I am not a fan of the robe wearing silly hat brigade that call themselves Daoists, but it seems to me that you do an awful lot of calling out of people on TDB's. The litmus paper for any aspiring Dao follower is of course not what sect they belong to, not what sects they've googled up info on, not whether they are celibate or not, not whether they have travelled to China, Taiwan and other countries and tried out some sects there, not whether they have read the Daoist Cannon in English or Chinese. No, on here, TDB's the litmus paper for me is, have they spent many a time on the threads to do with the DDJ or Xuan Shi? Why? One might ask oneself. Because knowing a true understanding of the DDJ gives a person a real foundation and a root; a root that doesn't need a robe, a silly hat and all the other trappings that these systems have.

So tell me Walker, when was the last time you posted on the 81 verses of the DDJ?

 

Oh. You are back. Hello, Flowing Hands.

 

I did not know you wanted to discuss the Daodejing with me. 

 

I am happy to do so if you open up a thread for this purpose.

 

But first, so that we may embark upon a new discussion having closed the book on our previous, as-yet-unfinished discussion, please go to this thread and answer my questions directed at you there. As of now, they still sit unanswered.

 

Then, once we have gotten that out of the way, I am happy to try and speak to you about the Daodejing.

 

 

___________

 

As for the rest of this thread, I fear today I do not have the time to type up another open course on basic knowledge of Daoist religion. I will address these things later. 

[SirPalomides]

19 hours ago, Nathan said:

Celibacy and renunciation are not western concepts

I missed this part. Whoever wrote this doesn’t seem to know much about the West. Even in the US there are Catholic, Orthodox, and even Anglican monasteries. In the Houston area even. Someone who wants to help bring Daoism to the West should at least have a basic grasp of Western religious heritage. And again, if this person wants to say, “Daoism hasn’t put down enough roots in America to support monasticism” I can sympathize with that statement but don’t go making stuff up.

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by SirPalomides

[freeform]

18 hours ago, virtue said:

The immortals and enlightened masters are here, now and always. Anyone can search their own heart for that connection and pray for their blessings.

 

Spot on.

 

And if they're not, then the school has sadly lost the connection to their living lineage - and turned into a pantomime.

[flowing hands]

On 2/4/2020 at 6:46 AM, Walker said:

 

Oh. You are back. Hello, Flowing Hands.

 

I did not know you wanted to discuss the Daodejing with me. 

 

I am happy to do so if you open up a thread for this purpose.

 

But first, so that we may embark upon a new discussion having closed the book on our previous, as-yet-unfinished discussion, please go to this thread and answer my questions directed at you there. As of now, they still sit unanswered.

 

Then, once we have gotten that out of the way, I am happy to try and speak to you about the Daodejing.

 

 

___________

 

As for the rest of this thread, I fear today I do not have the time to type up another open course on basic knowledge of Daoist religion. I will address these things later. 

I begged the Immortal master your questions and he basically said 'it is not for you to be testing him it is for him to test you' . There is certainly no need to open up a new thread we have had threads going on each verse for years. As I have said the root and fundamental understanding of Dao is knowing the DDJ, so its all there spill the beans, lets see what you know.

[Walker]

5 hours ago, flowing hands said:

I begged the Immortal master your questions and he basically said 'it is not for you to be testing him it is for him to test you' . There is certainly no need to open up a new thread we have had threads going on each verse for years. As I have said the root and fundamental understanding of Dao is knowing the DDJ, so its all there spill the beans, lets see what you know.

 

I see. Well you will have to answer the questions I linked to above if you wish to discuss anything else with me. As it stands, I see no reason more reason to believe you talk to Laozi than I see reason to believe that Billy Graham talks to Jesus.

 

Ta-ta!

[flowing hands]

On 06/02/2020 at 12:52 AM, Walker said:

 

I see. Well you will have to answer the questions I linked to above if you wish to discuss anything else with me. As it stands, I see no reason more reason to believe you talk to Laozi than I see reason to believe that Billy Graham talks to Jesus.

 

Ta-ta!

 

Well its up to you, the Immortal Master will teach his lesson one way or another. It is not for you to be calling me or him out on a whim to please you. Who do you think you are? You have a perspective; if you remember I PM'd you some months ago, I could foresee out of all the thousands of members here, it would be you who would put up the most obstruction to my work in telling what is true about the Heavens. So I warned you not to interfere for this was the work that the Immortals asked me to do. So some time I started talking about how Christianity and Jesus were false  and you were unable to stop yourself from interfering with what I was doing. Self control, humbleness and wisdom don't seem to be your strongest virtues. If you want your answers you can go to the temple and beg for yourself and in the process you can learn about yourself. So I shall wait again and bide my time, until the right opportunity arises. The root and foundation of all Dao sects is a true understanding of the DDJ. If somone is a true Dao, they will be spending most of their time on the discussion of this work. They may spend the rest of their life trying to work out its meaning and timeless secrets, but this is what a Dao follower will do. It will give reason as to why one should be following that way, why one is doing certain practices and why one should not be doing others. So far all I've seen of you is clever words, I want to see what you actually know, whether you have any foundation. So far I have never seen you or the other decenters over on proper Dao teachings. I won't make a judgment, but.........We will see.

[doc benway]

On 2/5/2020 at 2:39 PM, flowing hands said:

I begged the Immortal master your questions and he basically said 'it is not for you to be testing him it is for him to test you' .

This is so far from the spirit of Daoism and the Dao De Jing, I'm not sure what more to say...

 

 

On 2/5/2020 at 2:39 PM, flowing hands said:

As I have said the root and fundamental understanding of Dao is knowing the DDJ, so its all there spill the beans, lets see what you know.

I disagree, as would many Daoist practitioners.

Certainly the Dao De Jing is a wonderful exposition of Daoist thought and action.

Practitioners, however, take Daoist practice as the root and fundamental understanding. 

My Daoist teacher from Taiwan always emphasized practice over reading.

When asked if he could recommend a translation of the DDJ for me to study his response was, 'don't waste your time with books, practice!'

I respect those who prefer to look for the Way in verse or religious ritual but my path, and those of many practitioners, is experiential.

 

[Cleansox]

16 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

 

If somone is a true Dao, they will be spending most of their time on the discussion of this work. 

Not spending most of their time meditating? 

[Walker]

 

On 2/3/2020 at 11:06 PM, Nathan said:

1. My Shifu Patrick, grew up in a Chinese Monastery, raised by a Chinese man, in San Francisco and was trained in Ch'an and Zheng Yi Dao (I received his father's lineage as well). He reads, writes, and speaks fluent Chinese (of several dialects). He has spent YEARS in China wandering, and training. 

 

If Lovitt has mastered several Chinese dialects, that is an extremely impressive feat for a foreigner, and hard work even for people born in China, Taiwan, Malaysia, and so forth. Kudos to him. 

 

However, 

 

Being raised by a Chinese man does not mean a person will know what the Quanzhen monastic precepts are. I have made acquaintance with literally thousands of people raised by Chinese parents. I would guess that about 0.01% of them know about Quanzhen precepts by virtue of having a Chinese parent.

 

Also, being trained in Ch'an and Zhengyi Daoism by no means indicates that one's education will discuss--even for a minute--the Quanzhen precepts. Ch'an monks and nuns can be almost guaranteed to have little to no knowledge of Quanzhen monastic strictures. Zhengyi Daoists are likely to know somewhat more, but as this is not a matter central to their own lineage, their knowledge is not likely to be thorough unless they have close relationships with Quanzhen Daoists or have taken special time to research Quanzhen monasticism. 

 

On 2/3/2020 at 11:06 PM, Nathan said:

No one sold me ordination for thousands of dollars. I underwent a Daoist Seminary for three years, at the culmination of which I was ordained. Yes, the Seminary costs money. If you become a Catholic Priest you have to pay for Seminary School. This is a moot point. people have to eat......

 

My point is not that it is necessarily wrong that you had to pay for your Daoist education (it is not necessarily right, either, and your notion that money must change hands in exchange for Daoist teachings is incorrect--I say this out of extensive personal experience).

 

Rather, my point is that if you have graduated from a Dragon Gate "seminary" that tells you you have a role that does not exist in Dragon Gate Daoism, and has also clearly failed to teach you even the basic Daoist vocabulary that describes these roles to you, then there is something wrong with this seminary, and what it is providing does not justify thousands of people's dollars and years of people's lives. 

 

On 2/3/2020 at 11:06 PM, Nathan said:

I'm not even going to get into the minutiae of what constitutes Daoshi from Daozhang. It looks like Walker's red-herring and strawman riddled posts have an axe to grind.

 

In addition to shocking ignorance for a man who proudly and repeatedly declares himself to be an ordained member of not one but two Daoist orders, you also display a bizarre resistance to filling some of the massive lacuna in your education by learning the basic knowledge any member of your orders would be expect to learn in the very beginning. 

 

So, no, the differences between daoshi and daozhang are not minutiae, they are important.

 

Let me explain (not so much for you, Nathan, because at this point your mind seems to be made up, but for others who are curious) why this might be important: 

 

Although Daoists certainly have their "main teachers," it is common for Daoists in different lineages to actually learn from a great number of teachers over the years. This is in part because Daoists often wander in order to seek out new teachers and teachings, and also because wandering masters may visit one's own village, city, or rural temple. 

 

The different names that Daoists have and the ranks/experience levels that they indicate are fundamentally important to know, because they suggest to Daoists what kind of things one might learn from a teacher one has not met before, and also what kind of respect it might be wise to show.

 

For instance, if the Four Dragon school is really qualified to initiate Zhengyi daoshi, it is feasible that one day a graduate of this program could travel to a new city and be told by a well-meaning acquaintance, "oh, you are a Zhengyi daoshi? Did you know there is a temple here, too, run by so-and-so who is a daozhang from such-and-such province in China?" The ears of a Zhengyi daoshi who knows his/her basic vocabulary would perk up upon hearing this, because it would mean that fate and good fortune during his or her travels have presented the possibility of learning from a much more experienced member of the tradition. 

 

The same sort of thing exists in Quanzhen Daoism. I already went into detail about 律師/lvshi, the highly-trained Daoists who are masters of the monastic precepts. There are other words that indicated different types of training and mastery, among the most important of which are 高功/gaogong. Gaogong are Quanzhen's ritual masters. In traditional training, reaching such a level is generally said to take at least a decade of extremely rigorous training in both performing rituals as well as internal practices. Fundamentally, a gaogong is one who is not simply good at playing the music, chanting the scriptures, and doing all of the steps, bows, mudras, and so forth of ritual. No, far beyond this, a gaogong's internal training and 德 are understood to mean that he or she can truly act as a conduit between the realms of humans and immortals, and as such when a real gaogong performs a ritual, this person knows if and when the immortals have responded, because this person sees them, directly.

 

Returning to the question of why it is not a question of minutiae to know these terms, imagine if one were a young, wandering Quanzhen Longmen monk or nun with an interest in ritual service. One could, if fate and fortune allowed, one night take up residence in a temple on a distant mountain or village, only to be told during a pleasant chat with the monk at that temple, "ah, I did not expect a person as young as yourself to have such a sincere desire to learn Dao! You've clearly learned well from your master, and I can tell that you study diligently. You won't believe this, but so-and-so gaogong from such-and-such holy mountain just came out of retreat and is going to be passing through here in a couple of days. Why don't you stick around so you get a chance to meet him/her? Who knows, you might find that you have yuanfen with this master--who knows what he/she might teach you?"

 

These sorts of scenarios are real (again, personal experience) and they're a key part of a person's path, which cannot be planned. A self-declared "Daoist priest" who thinks that knowing different names of Daoist roles and ranks is "minutiae" would have no idea what gaogong meant, and therefore be incapable of judging whether or not it would be a good idea to hang around the temple for another week to see if the chance to possibly meet a great master materialized or not. Even worse, he or she could meet this master and think nothing of it. Far worse, he or she might meet such a master and think, "pfffft, who gives a shit? Gaogong-schmaogong, I already went to Daoism school and I'm already fully trained and ordained."

 

All of the above will be, for the sincere, food for thought. Allow me to add one more morsel in the form of a warning and lament:

 

There is a Daoist at White Cloud Monastery called 孟至嶺, currently the vice-secretary of the China Daoism Association. I have met him and he is a monk who, in earlier times, did devote himself to serious training, including long-term retreat in the mountains northern China. He is an extremely intelligent man, and widely versed in much of Daoism's precious wisdom and knowledge. Unfortunately, his wisdom was not sufficient to prevent him from getting involved in a terribly harebrained and immoral scheme a few years ago, which was the following:

 

The White Cloud Monastery, sometime around 2010 or 2011 made it known that it was opening an official gaogong class for foreigners. Now, when I first heard this, naturally I thought, amazing, the White Cloud Monastery itself will be teaching foreigners everything they need to know to be fully-qualified gaogong, and the erudite Daoist Meng Zhiling himself is overseeing this program? Great! 

 

That was before I learned the details. In fact, whereas a real gaogong needs to train for ten years or more, the White Cloud Monastery decided that these foreign gaogong would be minted in ten days. They did not even need to speak Chinese, much less read it. All they did was chant the scriptures in pinyin and take a few basic Daoist theory classes during their holiday class in China's most important Daoist temple. After ten days they all got their robes and diplomas stating that they were gaogong. I even saw the photos, with Meng Zhiling standing there lending the event official sanction of the China Daoism Association. 

 

This fiasco is yet another example of why it is supremely ignorant to call the basic knowledge of Daoist roles and ranks "minutiae." Those foreigners, without knowing as much, have made fools of themselves, and the Daoists like Meng Zhiling who were involved in this course knowingly made fools of themselves.

 

If we return to the above scenario of the traveling Daoist in a temple, imagine if he or she did wait an extra five days for the gaogong to arrive, only to be shocked to discover that this was not a Chinese but a foreign gaogong. The young Daoist might be intrigued at first, and maybe a bit skeptical, thinking, "Could a foreigner really reach this level? Well, why not, we are all part of the same Dao, and besides, perhaps in other lands they too have great wisdom to share. I guess I'll go introduce myself!" Now imagine the young Daoist's surprise when he or she quickly realizes that this visiting gaogong does not speak a word of Chinese. A little bit mystified, the young Daoist might quietly inquire with various other people in the temple, only to be told in confidence, "look, I hate to say this, but while that foreigner is a terribly nice person, he isn't really a gaogong--he just paid a few thousand US dollars to take some silly class at White Cloud Monastery and they gave him these robes and a certificate. Like I said, he's a nice guy, but if you're looking for a real teacher, you won't find one here."

 

A Daoist who has the basic vocabulary knowledge needed to have the above discussion thereby skips the misfortune that would come from being lured into a bullshit game of lineage-for-sale and Daoist-title-for-sale. An aspirant who has decided all of this is superfluous "minutiae" misses opportunities to learn from real teachers, and increases greatly his/her chances of being deceived by charlatans and pretenders.

 

Thus,

 

Building a vocabulary is jibengong. 

 

 

On 2/3/2020 at 11:06 PM, Nathan said:

Walker, are you a Longmen Priest? Why so emotional? Why has this struck a nerve with you? Why the defamation, character assassination, and ad hominem?

 

I will only answer the third question, "why has this struck a nerve with you." 

 

I feel a responsibility to speak up and offer my perspective when I see misinformation, partial information, and confusion around basic knowledge and tenets of Quanzhen Daoism being presented as facts on a message board where most people have not yet had the opportunity to do the kind of study they would need to do in order to be ale to spot the glaring mistakes and lacuna. I have seen enough people waste huge amounts of time, money, energy, and enthusiasm due to the mistakes that come from not being able to tell the difference between--for instance--a daogong who has trained for ten years and a gaogong who has trained for to days. Given that what Wang Chongyang and Qiu Chuji clearly wished for people go be able to obtain from the teachings they left to the world may simply be lost to those who step into the worlds of confused and dishonest teachers (of which there are many), I am taking quite a bit of my time to do my best to present gleanings from my own extensive wanderings and studies.

 

I do not, actually, hope that people will read what I've written and immediately write off you, Lovitt, Zhang, and the Four Dragons school. Rather, I hope that they might say to themselves, "hmm, I should definitely keep the old Daoist requirement that students observe teachers for three years in mind before I commit to formally entering a master-disciple relationship, bowing into a lineage, or signing up for a school that is meant to turn me into a daoshi. I can use that time to closely observe my own heart and its contents as well as the behavior and teachings of the teacher in question. I can also use that extra 1,000 days to study more basic background knowledge with patience, circumspection, and dis-passion, so that I will be more prepared for the huge step that I might wish to take. After all, it does seem wise to avoid rashly rushing into things. Never know what's hidden behind first impressions."

 

On 2/3/2020 at 11:06 PM, Nathan said:

Here is a response directed towards yourself Walker. Take it as you like it.

"If somebody asks you those questions they show their ignorance. There are no Taoist lineage that mandate celibacy and renunciation unless they are specifically focused on that, which ours is not. Zhang Shifu was very clear in our platform statement that we are a non-monastic platform because she understood that when Taoism came to the west it would need to be accessible to western people. Celibacy and renunciation are not western concepts nor are they the point when following the Dao. If you go back to the Tang Dynasty or even the Ming Dynasty you might find that they advocated it, but that was within their cultural context and it fell out of favor. But in Zhengyi The priests always married and had kids, because it’s 100% Dao. Zhang Shifu being the secretary general of the China Taoist Association makes all concessions and rules for all ordained Taoist worldwide. She does not mandate and as the Abbot of this lineage neither do I. People who think you cannot be Quanzhen and married are just bookworms who read too much and know too little about how things really work today" 
 

 

Did Lovitt write this? I can say that whoever wrote that is deceiving you, although I cannot say I know why that person is deceiving you. I wish I did not have to use my time dealing with so many false statements (if you, Nathan, did your homework you would be able to spot them yourself), but here goes:

 

There are no Taoist lineage that mandate celibacy and renunciation unless they are specifically focused on that, which ours is not.

 

Nathan, did you not read this article? Search for the word "celibate." 

 

Zhang Shifu was very clear in our platform statement that we are a non-monastic platform because she understood that when Taoism came to the west it would need to be accessible to western people. Celibacy and renunciation are not western concepts nor are they the point when following the Dao.

 

SirPalomides already dispatched with this nonsense in a post above, but I reemphasize that this is fluff. Both celibacy and renunciation are concepts that have existed in numerous cultivation traditions in the west for millennia. Whoever wrote this is a lazy thinker and clearly thinks you are, too, Nathan. 

 

As for Zhang Mingxin's supposed conclusions, how on earth would she know? How much time has she spent in western countries, and which ones? How many western languages does she speak and read, and which ones? How has she gone about making a study of western people's in order to arrive at the conclusion that violating the basic principles of her order in order to attract disciples would help to make Daoism accessible to westerners? Why was this even necessary when it would be perfectly fine for Zhang Mingxin to have western disciples who do not claim to be Dragon Gate daoshi, and instead simply learn from her in the role of lay disciples? Do you have answers for any of those questions? If so, what are they?

 

If you go back to the Tang Dynasty or even the Ming Dynasty you might find that they advocated it, but that was within their cultural context and it fell out of favor.

 

Whoever is writing here seems to think that you cannot or will not do any research to investigate their ahistorical claims. Wang Changyue (王常月), one of the most important Dragon Gate Daoists of the final dynastic period of China, the Qing dynasty, revived the precepts that had been used during the Yuan and Ming. In other words, the precepts were strongly in favor during the Qing dynasty and remain strongly in favor for serious monks and nuns to this very day. 

 

But in Zhengyi The priests always married and had kids, because it’s 100% Dao.

 

Priests did not always marry and have kids in Zhengyi Daoism, although those that did were probably in the great majority. I do not know what "100% Dao" means, but it seems like the writer is trying to suggest that monastic celibacy is less than 100% Dao. Many people make such claims. However, I do not know why such people would claim to be inheritors of Wang Chongyang, Ma Danyang, Qiu Chuji, Wang Changyue, et al's teachings.

 

Zhang Shifu being the secretary general of the China Taoist Association makes all concessions and rules for all ordained Taoist worldwide.

 

Utter nonsense. The CDA is a bureaucratic/administrative arm of the Chinese Communist Party whose main mission is to maintain the power of the Chinese Communist Party. All else is secondary or tertiary. Rising to any level in the CDA indicates that the CCP sees loyalty to the party in a person, and is an indication of the ability to play politics, with spiritual achievements being ancillary. Even if a person with real spiritual achievements becomes a high-ranking or even the top-ranked member of the CDA, that does not mean that he or she "makes all concessions and rules for ordained Taoists worldwide." That claim is spurious and preposterous. I doubt even Zhang Mingxin herself would ever claim to have this power. Whoever wrote that to you is putting her up on a pedestal and projecting things onto her that do not reflect reality in any way, shape, or form Zhang Mingxin is definitely not the supreme lord of Daoists worldwide. You really need to take more responsibility for your own education and stop letting whoever you're talking to fill you ear with this silliness. 

 

People who think you cannot be Quanzhen and married are just bookworms who read too much and know too little about how things really work today" 

 

Mmm-hmm. There is a phrase in Chinese, Nathan, which goes:

 

讀萬卷書

行萬里路

 

There is no crime in being a bookworm. In fact it behooves a disciple of Daoism to be one. It also behooves a disciple of Daoism to travel far and wide, in order to get a lay of the land, meet many other Daoists, and hopefully encounter a few qualified teachers. 

 

You are far behind on both of these tasks.

 

You need to work harder, "Daoist priest."

 

On 2/3/2020 at 11:23 PM, Nathan said:

Abbess Bright-Heart seems to not mind all of these lovely, married Longmen Priests and people behind her.

 

 

Those who have spent time in China know that photos like this are key to obtaining promotion in the communist cadre hierarchy. Of course, it may be an innocent group photo. The fact that photos of Lovitt visiting Qingzhen have been bandied about on the CCP's United Front Work Group's own website suggests that the communist party sees worldwide promotion of Daoism under the CDA's control as a useful soft power tool, in the vein as the Confucius Institute.

 

Of course, Zhang Mingxin may simply be an innocent little dear that I am unfairly picking on.

 

But then again,

 

Are there really innocent little dears in the top echelons of the CCP? 

 

Hmm. 

 

On 2/3/2020 at 11:49 PM, Nathan said:

They are no longer here. They never taught nor ordained Westerners and Americans.

 

This stunning utterance, Nathan, suggests that you have little understanding of the concept of lineage in Daoism in general, to say nothing of your own lineage. Freeform already addressed this post with wisdom. I suggest you reflect with sincerity upon what you are saying.

 

If the teachings of your lineage's founders are meaningless to you, it is probably time to question what the meaning of you being in that lineage is, and how you look by repeatedly reminding people that you are a part of this lineage, as though that gives you some kind of authority. 

 

On 2/3/2020 at 11:49 PM, Nathan said:

They didn't have to deal with the PRC. They don't much have a say anymore. Regardless, it seems that the requirement for celibacy is not set-in-stone within Quanzhen or Longmen.

 

The founders of the Quanzhen dealt with the armies of Genghis-fucking-Khan. Warfare and oppression raged throughout China for as long as the Quanzhen has been around. People's desires were always there, as were the risks inherent all of the violent eras in which Quanzhen continued its existence. In other words, the PRC is not an excuse for anything, and even if it were an excuse for eliminating the core teachings of Quanzhen monasticism, it is no excuse for eliminating those rules for people in Texas, which last time I checked is pretty damn far away from the CCP's central offices Beijing. 

 

Again, "they don't have much say any more" suggests you severely misunderstand the meaning of lineage. The "seminary" you attended has committed a grievous oversight if it failed to convey to you the way Daoists view their ancestors. 

 

You have much left to learn. 

 

On 2/3/2020 at 11:49 PM, Nathan said:

I'll ask again: "Where is it proscribed for a Longmen Priest to marry?" If you can't find a law, or an edict, saying so, then it isn't so. If bright-Heart says it's Kosher,  (And She's the one that decides what's kosher and for whom) then by golly it is to me.

 

1. Again, Zhang Mingxin is not overlord of Daoism, so no, she does not unilaterally decide "what is kosher" for anybody.

 

2. You have used up so much of my time with your misinformation, Nathan. The sad thing is that you will probably reject everything I am about to show you out of hand and go off on a tangent about how I have called you names or used ad hominems. Whatever. This is really for the benefit of those who are looking on and aren't sure who to believe.

 

You want laws?

 

Here.

 

Do you know of the State Administration for Religious Affairs, which outranks the China Daoism Association? It SARA who crack the whip on the CDA and make sure that the bureaucrats in robes do as their told (they also sent a guy to come check up on me once when I was living in a remote Daoist temple). Here, State Administration for Religious Affairs' own website:

 

全真派由金代王重阳创立，全真道士必须受戒方能名登“仙籍”。全真派道士为出家道士，不结婚、素食，住在道观里。

 

This means:

 

"The Quanzhen lineage was founded by Wang Chongyang in the Jin dynasty. Quanzhen daoshi must receive precepts, and only then can they have their names listed on the "Immortal Register." Quanzhen lineage daoshi are monastic ["left family"=出家/chujia] daoshi. They do not marry, they eat a vegetarian diet, and they live inside of Daoist temples."

 

Want more? How about from another Chinese government website:

 

现今，道教两派之中，全真恪守古训，苦心厉志，不立家室，禁绝荤辛；而正一则允许成家，除斋醮活动期间，一般不禁绝荤辛饮酒，但求心净而已。

 

This means:

 

"Nowadays, of the two Daoist lineages, the Quanzhen scrupulously abide by the ancient disciplines, painstakingly and with strong will. They do not establish families, and they proscribe the eating of [meat and plants categories as hun]. Conversely, Zhengyi allows marriage, and except for during the periods of zhai-jiao [rituals], they typically do not proscribe eating meat and [hun plants] or drinking alcohol. They only seek to keep the mind pure. 

 

Want another Chinese government website? I'm getting tired of this, so last one:

 

两派的信仰并无差异，只是在教规教戒上有所不同。全真派要求素食、出家（不结婚）、住观，正一派则无这些规定。

 

"The two lineages [Quanzhen and Zhengyi] have no differences in terms of beliefs. Only in terms of their religious rules and strictures do they have differences. The quanzhen lineage requires a vegetarian diet, leaving-the-family (they do not marry), and living in temples. The Zhengyi lineage, conversely, does not have these rules."

 

 

__________________

 

Nathan, here is a question you might consider asking your teacher: 

 

What were the monastic precepts (戒) transmitted by your great-grand-teacher Fu Yuantian (傅圓天) in Sichuan on Mt. Qingcheng in 1995?

 

As Lovitt is fluent in many Chinese dialects and is running a Dragon Gate "seminary," he should have no trouble listing explaining these strictures to you and your classmates. The information is widely available. 

 

 

__________________

 

Damn near missed lunchtime trying to educate these youths. 

[SirPalomides]

When it comes to teachers of Asian religions operating in the West, anti-intellectualism is a sure mark of a charlatan. Discouraging students from studying what you’re not spoon feeding them, and trying to shame inconvenient questioners as “bookworms”, is a classic method used by gurus to cover their incompetence, deceit, and abuse. There is of course a point where getting out of your head and into practice is necessary but shutting down questions and criticism is something else. A popular slogan- taken well out of context- among dubious Western Zen masters is “transmission outside the scriptures”. As the Roshi John Dairo Loori liked to point out, you have to know what’s in the scriptures before going beyond them.

 

Unfortunately Daoism is still at a very fragile, embryonic state in the West, with solid information hard to come by. This allows all sorts of scammers, megalomaniacs, and predators to operate unchallenged. Buddhism in the West has this problem too but there are many qualified, knowledgeable teachers and practitioners around who assist in cutting through the bullshit. That’s why we should be exceptionally grateful for folks like Walker waging what must feel like a pretty lonely, thankless battle.

[ReturnDragon]

13 hours ago, Walker said:

一般不禁绝荤辛饮酒
typically do not proscribe eating meat and [hun plants] or drinking alcohol.

辛(xin) is spicy food.

[ReturnDragon]

On 2/3/2020 at 8:18 AM, SirPalomides said:

2. Numerous important practices and principles of Daoism come from sources older than, and independent of, the DDJ.

I believe that the older Daoism sources was originated from Confucianism. It was before the DDJ Daoism. Then, people have to distinguish the two in practice. 

Edited February 8, 2020 by ReturnDragon