Daoist associations?

[Walker]

On 2/9/2020 at 1:57 AM, SirPalomides said:

Unfortunately Daoism is still at a very fragile, embryonic state in the West, with solid information hard to come by. This allows all sorts of scammers, megalomaniacs, and predators to operate unchallenged. Buddhism in the West has this problem too but there are many qualified, knowledgeable teachers and practitioners around who assist in cutting through the bullshit. That’s why we should be exceptionally grateful for folks like Walker waging what must feel like a pretty lonely, thankless battle.

 

I think what you say is true. The situation is perhaps slowly improving, but increasing interest in Daoism also seems to mean more opportunities for less-than-qualified "teachers" to hang their shingles all over the internet. Please don't feel there is any need to be especially grateful towards me. I'm just taking time to share some things that my teachers generously took time to share with me, out of a sense of responsibility, and with the knowledge that I can at best paint only a partial picture. Hopefully the spotlight can get off of individuals as soon as possible and help people to engage with authentic teachings and teachers directly. Heaven help the poor soul who attempts to walk the Daoist path on the basis of what random Joe Schmoes on the internet say!

Edited February 10, 2020 by Walker

[moment]

On 2/3/2020 at 8:56 AM, virtue said:

This certainly doesn't answer my question, but it does highlight how a spiritual disconnection is apparent.

 

The immortals and enlightened masters are here, now and always. Anyone can search their own heart for that connection and pray for their blessings.

 

Whether any answers are directly intelligible is a matter of spiritual maturity and sincerity.

 

It's not unprecedented (in any true spiritual lineage) that lineage founders act as guardians and arrive every once in a while to instruct faithful disciples. Same goes for sanctioning the altering of regulations if it needs to be done to accommodate changing times.

 

One prominent example of the latter is Tibetan Bön Buddhism. Their dzogchen teachings were previously transmitted only in secret and kept hidden, but lineage guardians came to the dreams of the head monk and told that the teachings would perish if not opened up to everyone. This level of heart-to-heart communication is what happens in living traditions.

 

I sincerely believe that, the opening to all the process of, the heart-felt stuff may save the world!

Edited February 10, 2020 by moment

[Walker]

On 2/9/2020 at 3:12 AM, ReturnDragon said:

辛(xin) is spicy food.

 

真可恥，一個半吊子的不到一半還要堅持在這邊誤人子弟. I recommend you consult a dictionary next time before you interrupt me. In Buddhism and Daoism, 五葷 and 五辛 are synonyms (synonym is English for 同義詞). They refer to a class of plants with qi that is considered especially turbid (濁/zhuo) and which are possessed of what would be called aphrodisiac qualities in English. The most well-known are garlic, onions, and tuber onion (韭菜/jiucai, also called "poor man's Viagra" in China). In the context of Daoism and Buddhism, the character 辛 does not mean "spicy." There is no prohibition in Quanzhen Daoism against eating spicy food. Hot peppers are commonly found in monastery cuisine, as is ginger, which some people would say has a spicy flavor. 

 

Lying little ChiDragon, your own signature says "Fallacies are not worth to be mentioned," and yet almost everything you mention is a fallacy. Did you come back here just "to show your own ignorance?" Well, 建議你做好個心理準備吧, because I will keep pointing at your ignorance, so that no unlucky people hurt themselves listening to your bullshit reverse breathing instructions and your 現炒現賣 "DCXM" lies.

[ReturnDragon]

若佛子，不得食五辛：大蒜、荅蔥、慈蔥、蘭蔥、興渠，是五種，一切食中不得食。若故食者，犯輕垢罪。

原文網址：https://kknews.cc/culture/l8rp9e.html

[moment]

1 hour ago, ReturnDragon said:

若佛子，不得食五辛：大蒜、荅蔥、慈蔥、蘭蔥、興渠，是五種，一切食中不得食。若故食者，犯輕垢罪。

原文網址：https://kknews.cc/culture/l8rp9e.html

Lay Buddhists do eat onions and garlic, but anything from the Allium family (onions, garlic, spring onions, etc.) are avoided by monks, etc because they hinder meditation by causing intestinal gas.
It’s pretty hard to reach a state of Samadi with a bloated stomach.
In Buddhism:
These foods stir the emotions and hinder clear thought, and so should be moderated.

Edited February 10, 2020 by moment

[Taomeow]

10 hours ago, moment said:

Lay Buddhists do eat onions and garlic, but anything from the Allium family (onions, garlic, spring onions, etc.) are avoided by monks, etc because they hinder meditation by causing intestinal gas.
It’s pretty hard to reach a state of Samadi with a bloated stomach.
In Buddhism:
These foods stir the emotions and hinder clear thought, and so should be moderated.

 

These allium vegetables are actually believed (quite correctly) to mildly increase libido in men (by releasing nitric oxide from S-nitrosoglutathione and prolonging relaxation of aortic rings, both of which facilitate and improve erectile function), not give one gas.  What does give the monks and lay folks alike gas is usually beans, fresh bread etc., which are not forbidden.  Being gassy is not thought of as an impediment to enlightenment, being horny is.   

 

 

[SirPalomides]

9 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

These allium vegetables are actually believed (quite correctly) to mildly increase libido in men (by releasing nitric oxide from S-nitrosoglutathione and prolonging relaxation of aortic rings, both of which facilitate and improve erectile function), not give one gas.  What does give the monks and lay folks alike gas is usually beans, fresh bread etc., which are not forbidden.  Being gassy is not thought of as an impediment to enlightenment, being horny is.   

 

 

 

For those curious, a very harsh passage from the Surangama Sutra:

 

Ananda, all living beings can live if they eat what is sweet, and they will die if they take poison. Beings who seek samadhi should refrain from eating five pungent plants of this world[onions, garlic, leeks, scallions, and shallots].If these five are eaten cooked, they increase one's sexual desire; if they are eaten raw, they increase one's anger.Therefore, even if people in this world who eat pungent plants can expound the twelve divisions of the sutra canon, the gods and immortals of the ten directions will stay far away from them because they smell so bad.

However, after they eat these things the hungry ghosts will hover around and kiss their lips. Being always in the presence of ghosts, their blessings and virtue dissolve as the days go by, and they experience no lasting benefit.

People who eat pungent plants and also cultivate samadhi will not be protected by the Bodhisattvas, gods, immortals, or good spirits of the ten directions; therefore, the tremendously powerful demon kings, able to do as they please, will appear in the body of a Buddha and speak dharma for them, denouncing the prohibitive precepts and praising lust, rage, and delusion.

When their lives end, these people will join the retinue of demon kings. When they use up their blessings as demons, they will fall into the Relentless Hell.

Edited February 10, 2020 by SirPalomides

[Taomeow]

44 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

 

For those curious, a very harsh passage from the Surangama Sutra:

 

Ananda, all living beings can live if they eat what is sweet, and they will die if they take poison. Beings who seek samadhi should refrain from eating five pungent plants of this world[onions, garlic, leeks, scallions, and shallots].If these five are eaten cooked, they increase one's sexual desire; if they are eaten raw, they increase one's anger.Therefore, even if people in this world who eat pungent plants can expound the twelve divisions of the sutra canon, the gods and immortals of the ten directions will stay far away from them because they smell so bad.

However, after they eat these things the hungry ghosts will hover around and kiss their lips. Being always in the presence of ghosts, their blessings and virtue dissolve as the days go by, and they experience no lasting benefit.

People who eat pungent plants and also cultivate samadhi will not be protected by the Bodhisattvas, gods, immortals, or good spirits of the ten directions; therefore, the tremendously powerful demon kings, able to do as they please, will appear in the body of a Buddha and speak dharma for them, denouncing the prohibitive precepts and praising lust, rage, and delusion.

When their lives end, these people will join the retinue of demon kings. When they use up their blessings as demons, they will fall into the Relentless Hell.

 

Mighty harsh, but that's pretty common when anyone in the position of making decisions about what people should and shouldn't eat reinforces the message by all manner of scary scenarios that non-compliance is supposed to bring.  In other dietary laws laid down by other authorities there's similar passages regarding pork and shrimp and lobsters and eel, and then there's other systems forbidding the consumption of the sacred animals or else promoting it (took the Japanese a harsh emperor's edict to start eating beef), and Colonel Johnson had to eat a tomato on the steps of the Congress in front of a crowd of spectators to convince Americans that tomatoes are not poisonous, and in Russia there were massive potato riots when the czar Peter the Great tried to get the peasants to plant this crop (devil's seed to the pious), and the Chinese used to refer to things like cheese, yogurt and butter as "rotten milk of the rotten barbarians," and taoists and taoist influencers of Zen proved without a shadow of a doubt that the consumption of grains feeds the "three worms" (aka "three corpses" or "three monsters") in the human body and causes many sins to appear which the same monsters then proceed to report to the Jade Emperor (classic entrapment).  And then there's King James-invented war on tobacco ("the habit of the barbarian races offensive to God and pleasing the Devil") and the German kaisers' war on coffee (in favor of beer), and a failed attempt by that Turkish sultan who ordered all sacks containing the country's entire supplies of coffee ("hated by Allah") to be drowned in the Bosphorus Strait (causing a rebellion and winding up being stuffed in a sack and drowned in the Bosphorus Strait himself) and and and...

 

...so, yeah.  If someone was to listen to all dietary prohibitions from all religious authorities all at once, the pious would starve, or else eat nothing but junk food -- there's never been any prohibitions on eating petroleum-derived chemicals, so I guess those must be the way to go in order to avoid all those demon kings et al.    

[liminal_luke]

.

Edited February 10, 2020 by liminal_luke

[SirPalomides]

I'm not dietician and I can't speak for the health benefits/ injuries caused by onions, but I feel pretty doubtful that onion-eating is a sure path to hell. Of  course that might be what the hungry ghosts swirling around my lips want me to think.

[Walker]

@liminal_luke Can you please put your question in a new thread? I'll be happy to share some thoughts in a dedicated thread. This one's topic is pretty far from dietetics, and even though it has swung that way it'd be nice to steer it back while creating a place more focused on food. 

[flowing hands]

On 2/7/2020 at 3:32 PM, steve said:

This is so far from the spirit of Daoism and the Dao De Jing, I'm not sure what more to say...

 

 

I disagree, as would many Daoist practitioners.

Certainly the Dao De Jing is a wonderful exposition of Daoist thought and action.

Practitioners, however, take Daoist practice as the root and fundamental understanding. 

My Daoist teacher from Taiwan always emphasized practice over reading.

When asked if he could recommend a translation of the DDJ for me to study his response was, 'don't waste your time with books, practice!'

I respect those who prefer to look for the Way in verse or religious ritual but my path, and those of many practitioners, is experiential.

 

 

Seems like you need to spend some time over on the DDJ threads! If you understand the DDJ it's all about practice and realisation. Perhaps that's why there are so many crap Daoist practitioners out there. 

[doc benway]

23 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

 

Seems like you need to spend some time over on the DDJ threads! If you understand the DDJ it's all about practice and realisation. Perhaps that's why there are so many crap Daoist practitioners out there. 

 

Understanding and realization are two different things.
One does not necessarily lead to the other.

I'm very pleased with where I'm at in my practice and understanding.

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[flowing hands]

9 hours ago, steve said:

 

Understanding and realization are two different things.
One does not necessarily lead to the other.

I'm very pleased with where I'm at in my practice and understanding.

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

It's funny how people in general don't read properly and put their own slant on things. It is so common. One needs realisation before it is possible to have understanding, or visa versa. One needs to practice techniques to both understand and have realisation.

Whether you think the DDJ, as many do in the west, is a dry old book of philosophy is entirely your own perspective and your level of understanding and if you are content with that, then that's fine. 

One must remember that Lei Erh spent most of his young life in the mountains under the guidance of many great cultivators, shamans and masters. His words are therefore of great importance and the secrets they hold offer to the true cultivator, true realisation; Immortality. Anyone who is a cultivator of self leading to the Dao, would miss the greatest manual on cultivation they could possibly read. That's where those two words come in again.

I have studied the DDJ for nearly forty years and been given formal tuition in its understanding for almost as long. It is the root and foundation for true cultivators of the Dao.

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, flowing hands said:

It's funny how people in general don't read properly and put their own slant on things. It is so common. 

Isn't it?

Do you ever see this tendency in yourself?

Are you looking in that direction?

Do you routinely and consistently turn the light around?

 

4 hours ago, flowing hands said:

One needs realisation before it is possible to have understanding, or visa versa. One needs to practice techniques to both understand and have realisation.

 

Whether you think the DDJ, as many do in the west, is a dry old book of philosophy is entirely your own perspective and your level of understanding and if you are content with that, then that's fine. 

Your slant

 

4 hours ago, flowing hands said:

One must remember that Lei Erh spent most of his young life in the mountains under the guidance of many great cultivators, shamans and masters. His words are therefore of great importance and the secrets they hold offer to the true cultivator, true realisation; Immortality. Anyone who is a cultivator of self leading to the Dao, would miss the greatest manual on cultivation they could possibly read. That's where those two words come in again.

I have studied the DDJ for nearly forty years and been given formal tuition in its understanding for almost as long. It is the root and foundation for true cultivators of the Dao.

There are many wonderful manuals on cultivation.

Different perspectives speak more clearly to different seekers.

We are all unique individuals who need different things and, for some, that can change over time.

For others, one resource may be enough.

When we push what works for us on others and denigrate what they feel is working for them, it is a sign of a closed mind, a sign of a certain degree of ignorance.

I'm very pleased you have found what works for you.

I've found something a bit different that works more effectively for me...  are you able and willing to embrace that reality or must it always come back to a belief that you have the answer and I'm a fool?

 

[flowing hands]

On 2/11/2020 at 12:57 PM, steve said:

Isn't it?

Do you ever see this tendency in yourself?

Are you looking in that direction?

Do you routinely and consistently turn the light around?

 

Your slant

 

There are many wonderful manuals on cultivation.

Different perspectives speak more clearly to different seekers.

We are all unique individuals who need different things and, for some, that can change over time.

For others, one resource may be enough.

When we push what works for us on others and denigrate what they feel is working for them, it is a sign of a closed mind, a sign of a certain degree of ignorance.

I'm very pleased you have found what works for you.

I've found something a bit different that works more effectively for me...  are you able and willing to embrace that reality or must it always come back to a belief that you have the answer and I'm a fool?

 

 

If we look at the nature of spirituality, there are so many differing ways to look at things and many different teachings. Where people are in their lives tends to lead them on a certain path and perspective. People particularly like to take from one tradition and then from another. This they feel makes their learning more whole. One might say  as you have, that this is an open minded path and a path that leads to greater understanding. What I say is, it all depends on what those teachings are saying. Many teachings are misleading, and those that are involved in them are completely unaware. What ever you follow, It works for you because you hold that perspective and you are at that point in your life. But a complete teaching like Lei Erh's verses requires a fundamental change in perspective and a perspective that holds onto nothing. It is complete and the traditional aim of Dao followers was to attain Immortality. Now, the DDJ teaches you that and how you can obtain it. I've have never said you are a fool that's your own slant and the way you interpret my words. Don't go down the same path as many here, who tend to invent things because of their own differing perspectives. The DDJ may not do it for you, that's certainly fine by me. no words or persuasions on my part would be able to reach you and is a waste of time in so far as you are not on that wave length to appreciate its real value as an instruction manual on many ways. That is why it is so complete above all other writings IMO.

I might add, if you belong to a Dao sect, they normally have evenings/times where people can come and discuss the verses of Lei Erh, linking the words with self cultivation practices and perspectives, for it from those words that such practices have emerged. Although certain teachers teach practices many don't actually know the origin of those practices and to a certain extent why one really does them. Many have been changed and the slant changed by particular teachers.