The laws of parsimony - how to wield Occam’s razor

[dwai]

Quote

Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor) is a principle from philosophy. Suppose there exists two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the one that requires the least speculation is usually correct. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation.

Occam’s razor can be used quite effectively to cut through bs that one will invariably have to deal with in spirituality.

 

A general rule of thumb I found to be effective is that any spiritual teaching or system that overcomplicates it’s understanding or practice is less effective than another which employs less complexity. 
 

The materialist model of reality is the most complex of all models out there. This employs lifeless matter organizing itself into complex patterns which mysteriously come alive and produce consciousness. 
 

On the other hand the traditional Spiritual eastern models of reality almost all suggest that consciousness is the basis of the universe and matter merely appears and disappears in it. 
 

IMHO the eastern models are less complex and require less assumptions. On that basis, the materialist model is less likely to be ‘correct’. 
 

Would love to see more discussions on this topic  

[freeform]

4 hours ago, dwai said:

IMHO the eastern models are less complex and require less assumptions. On that basis, the materialist model is less likely to be ‘correct’.

Honestly - I’m not sure the eastern system is any less complex - especially once you get into the details within each system.

 

However there’s this funny clumsiness of science when it comes to studying living beings or processes... scientists claim to understand a lot, but in reality understand almost nothing.

 

When it comes to the less ‘alive’ aspects of matter, science is clearly exemplary. But living systems - almost nothing...

 

That to me is the bigger evidence for the materialist world view being flawed.

[CloudHands]

4 hours ago, freeform said:

Honestly - I’m not sure the eastern system is any less complex - especially once you get into the details within each system.

 

However there’s this funny clumsiness of science when it comes to studying living beings or processes... scientists claim to understand a lot, but in reality understand almost nothing.

 

When it comes to the less ‘alive’ aspects of matter, science is clearly exemplary. But living systems - almost nothing...

 

That to me is the bigger evidence for the materialist world view being flawed.

 

That is very possible. That or too many people like to brag and I'm not sure about the ratio.

 

More seriously (or less seriously, I don't know....)  We're living the golden age of astro and particle physics and handling material of that kind is rather subtle 

Edited December 27, 2019 by CloudHands

[dwai]

7 hours ago, freeform said:

Honestly - I’m not sure the eastern system is any less complex - especially once you get into the details within each system.

 

However there’s this funny clumsiness of science when it comes to studying living beings or processes... scientists claim to understand a lot, but in reality understand almost nothing.

 

When it comes to the less ‘alive’ aspects of matter, science is clearly exemplary. But living systems - almost nothing...

 

That to me is the bigger evidence for the materialist world view being flawed.

The complexity in the very first premise of materialism trumps all other details. Eastern systems that are more complex in theory are inherently less plausible than those that aren’t imho.  
 

[freeform]

23 minutes ago, dwai said:

The complexity in the very first premise of materialism trumps all other details.

You may well be right... I’m not sure what’s more complex.

 

For me, the strength of the eastern approach is that it invites you to prove its premise by experiencing it in yourself by following a process...

 

Wheras you’ll have to take a physicists word for it when they say they can prove the existence of quarks, leptons, bosons and all the other weird and wonderful ‘building blocks’ of reality 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

You may well be right... I’m not sure what’s more complex.

 

For me, the strength of the eastern approach is that it invites you to prove its premise by experiencing it in yourself by following a process...

 

Wheras you’ll have to take a physicists word for it when they say they can prove the existence of quarks, leptons, bosons and all the other weird and wonderful ‘building blocks’ of reality 

 agreed...

btw I read the “building blocks” you wrote as “building bollocks” and was chuckling under my breath and then re-read it correctly  

[silent thunder]

Mental models were convincing for a time while experiencing awareness in a certain perspective, but no mental construct seems able to hold together with any feasability lately (last six years or so).  Doubt has become a constant, (and relievingly welcome) companion to all mental activity as the process unfolds of itself in recent years.

 

Mom believed and taught me that the universe is a Pot, made by God who is The Potter.  He used magic to imbue the Pots with Life.  This was feasible yet wholly unsatisfying, inherently skewed to me, even as a young child, but for a time, I dutifully tried to accept it.  Eventually, by middle school, in an effort to put to rest my misgivings and to find answers to the questions none of the elders in my church were willing or able to answer.  I read the Bible for myself... and that was the end of my ability to pretend that the model presented by that type of mind, reflected truth.

 

Dad saw the world as the 'Dumb Machine'.  Inherently meaningless dumb particles streaking, floating, crashing and squeezing at immense pressure, eventually, through random statistical improbabilities of staggering proportions, resulting in life.  This pot never held water for me, due to certain experiences of a deeply intangible and spiritual nature.

 

Some friends suggested a blend, that God had made the Machine of our Universe, imbued it with certain laws, then left it utterly alone to its own devices to putter along on its own inertia toward some grand (or meek) finale.

 

Lately Doubt is my model.  I don't know, my mind in its localized awareness state, can't know... and that's just fine.

 

A most constant and deeply welcome mental companion (and interstingly to me, an unsought and unmanufactured companion).  I no longer have any ability to prop up certainty models of the universe, in fact, without seeking or straining, they fall away of themselves with simple observation and my own raw being.

 

When it comes to mentally ascerting the nature of all reality, certainty is untenable and rather inherently repulsive and whenever it begins to solidify, doubt infuses it with fluidity and it melts warmly, (like an inner smile though, not a bitter pill).

 

Visions of life, thoughts, smells, items I touch, trees, insects, mountains, people, animals... they have form to my senses, colors and textures... yet all are revealed as vaporous, passing intangibles in their essential nature, no matter how precious, or repulsive their form, smell and sound may seem.

 

Awareness is the only thing that abides beyond doubt... for now.

 

Awareness is... the rest... well, it takes care of itself. 

Fog rises in morning, dissipates in mid morning and returns pre dawn.

 

Awareness abides.

 

Maya is a compelling model, the innocent arising and play of senses and mental constructs.  It's a compelling play.  But inherently vaporous, insubstantial and without the awareness that seemingly fuels it... is...?

[dwai]

5 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Mental models were convincing for a time while experiencing awareness in a certain perspective, but no mental construct seems able to hold together with any feasability lately (last six years or so).  Doubt has become a constant, (and relievingly welcome) companion to all mental activity as the process unfolds of itself in recent years.

 

Mom believed and taught me that the universe is a Pot, made by God who is The Potter.  He used magic to imbue the Pots with Life.  This was feasible yet wholly unsatisfying, inherently skewed to me, even as a young child, but for a time, I dutifully tried to accept it.  Eventually, by middle school, in an effort to put to rest my misgivings and to find answers to the questions none of the elders in my church were willing or able to answer.  I read the Bible for myself... and that was the end of my ability to pretend that the model presented by that type of mind, reflected truth.

 

Dad saw the world as the 'Dumb Machine'.  Inherently meaningless dumb particles streaking, floating, crashing and squeezing at immense pressure, eventually, through random statistical improbabilities of staggering proportions, resulting in life.  This pot never held water for me, due to certain experiences of a deeply intangible and spiritual nature.

 

Some friends suggested a blend, that God had made the Machine of our Universe, imbued it with certain laws, then left it utterly alone to its own devices to putter along on its own inertia toward some grand (or meek) finale.

 

Lately Doubt is my model.  I don't know, my mind in its localized awareness state, can't know... and that's just fine.

 

A most constant and deeply welcome mental companion (and interstingly to me, an unsought and unmanufactured companion).  I no longer have any ability to prop up certainty models of the universe, in fact, without seeking or straining, they fall away of themselves with simple observation and my own raw being.

 

When it comes to mentally ascerting the nature of all reality, certainty is untenable and rather inherently repulsive and whenever it begins to solidify, doubt infuses it with fluidity and it melts warmly, (like an inner smile though, not a bitter pill).

 

Visions of life, thoughts, smells, items I touch, trees, insects, mountains, people, animals... they have form to my senses, colors and textures... yet all are revealed as vaporous, passing intangibles in their essential nature, no matter how precious, or repulsive their form, smell and sound may seem.

 

Awareness is the only thing that abides beyond doubt... for now.

 

Awareness is... the rest... well, it takes care of itself. 

Fog rises in morning, dissipates in mid morning and returns pre dawn.

 

Awareness abides.

 

Maya is a compelling model, the innocent arising and play of senses and mental constructs.  It's a compelling play.  But inherently vaporous, insubstantial and without the awareness that seemingly fuels it... is...?

Beautiful