Money

[CloudHands]

It is commonly admitted that one can lack of money.

 

Is it possible to earn make (doesn't really fit either) too much money ? If it is what is too much ?

 

Curious about what do you think.

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by CloudHands
glad I raised the question

[zerostao]

money is not a necessity, a powerful illusion exists that it is. 

peer through the illusion, and see the free

 

I didn't answer your specific question, it is beyond my paygrade to give a qualified answer to that.

I did want to comment on your opening line.

[silent thunder]

Strong topic.  One I've spent considerable time with over the decades, revisiting it as my life has shifted from living hand to mouth, to building an established career with some money in savings, to approaching and preparing for retirement with a diversified stock portfolio and retirement accounts.

 

The path i followed when meditating on money, inevitably led me away from money as the focus (it always seemed more a springboard) toward the deeper question of 'what has intrinsic value?'.  What is valuable?  Or what determines value in living?

Health and Safety have supreme value to me.  Family and Community.  Flowing rivers of clean water, filled with fish and stones.  Expansive forests teeming with life.  These are so valuable as to be 'beyond valuable'.

 

And it may be a completely personal thing.  My answer may not fulfill anyone else's notion and I'd not expect it to, nor would I try to convince anyone.  Money in itself is an idea.  A collective agreement of intended value assigned to paper and metal coins (and recently to numbers in a banking computer system).

 

From where is real value derived?    The answer, for me, has never been from money.  But that may just be me. 

 

Money to me, equals options in society, not necessarily value though.  Money seems a means or method of transmitting value.  It seems a means of equivalency, yet where is the determination arising from at what value money possesses?

 

We refer to it as currency (which works for me as it implies flow).  I'm reminded of a quote about hoarding money... "Unused wealth, may as well not exist, it is functionally useless".  For money to be effective, it must flow.

 

It's value as I see it lies in and derives entirely from the collective social perception of its value... the social contract and agreement we all affirm daily when we use it to purchase that which has actual, functional value, and when we spend our effort and time to acquire some of it, to then be able to trade it for what has actual, functional value.

 

Food is valuable.  I cannot eat money, in any of its forms, but posession of money gives me the option to go trade for good food at the store and I cannot build a home out of money, but I may trade money for supplies to build it myself, or to entice another to build it for me.

 

I took my young son to a deli one afternoon where we ordered two awesomely huge sub sandwiches, chips, juice and a cookie for lunch one day.  When we got in the car to drive to the park and enjoy it, I first held up the bag of food booty and proclaimed. 

 

"All this yummy in exchange for one piece of paper!"

 

"Isn't it interesting?" I added.  "I traded the woman who made our lunch one piece of paper and in return she gave us all this food and three pieces of paper and some coins in return.  That is amazing to me.  We can't eat the money... well I guess we could eat the paper, we could physically manage it, but it wouldn't taste good and wouldn't give us nutrition, would it?"

 

he shook his head.

 

"Food keeps us healthy and vital.  Water keeps us alive and thriving.  Money is kind of valuable because we can exchange it for what is really valuable.  Money holds value only because humans all agree it is.  Money derives its value from our minds little guy."

 

"now let's go to the park and enjoy the value of some shady trees while we eat our booty." 

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by silent thunder
clarified a phrase

[liminal_luke]

It´s absolutely possible to have too much money.  There are even psychologists who specialize in the problems of the excessively moneyed.  How much is too much depends very much on the person -- as does how much is too little.  Some people are gifted (saddled?) with destinies that require riches.  There are philanthropists who receive great personal satisfaction, and do much good, putting money to work preserving the Amazon, funding cancer research, fighting hunger.  Other well-to-do folks spend on themselves in a way that gives them pleasure and I, for one, don´t begrudge them their wealth -- those Picassos aren´t gonna buy themselves.  

 

Many people have more money than is good for them.  Money can isolate people from the world and make people lonely.  It can enable sloth and all manner of vice and addiction.  Money is interpersonally tricky.  

 

I often think I could do with more money, but the truth is that I probably have just the right amount.

[thelerner]

Ode to money; the lubricant of barter, the measuring stick of perceived value. We create it, name it & play with it. A useful idea, worthy servant and poor master. It Is because we think it Is. And if you don't, I have a nice P.O Box in Brooklyn for you to send it to.

Even Einstein had problems with money. In 1904 working as a patent clerk he met my great great uncle, Manny the accountant who explained it to him. Using language Einstein would understand Manny wrote this:
M = E C^2. Which translates into Money equals Energy times Consumption Now and Future.

You see how energy is at the heart of money? And what is energy? The potential for work. In humans terms Energy makes our lives better and more enjoyable. Flip the equation and we see E= M/C^2. Present and future consumption divides our M and cuts our Energy.

Equations must be balanced and choices made. Still one can break out of the zero sum game through leverage. Creativity, creating new resources or combining old ones in new ways allow more work done with the same effort. This is how the wise tap the source of money.

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by thelerner

[CloudHands]

On 27/10/2013 at 5:06 AM, thelerner said:

Money is a tool- a powerful one; double edged too. With knowledge and discipline it can be a great one, providing greater opportunities, freedom and security.

 

I once wrote:

Ode to money; the lubricant of barter, the measuring stick of perceived value. We create it, name it & play with it. A useful idea, worthy servant and poor master. It Is because we think it Is. And if you don't, I have a nice P.O Box in Brooklyn for you to send it to.

Even Einstein had problems with money. In 1904 working as a patent clerk he met my great great uncle, Manny the accountant who explained it to him. Using language Einstein would understand Manny wrote this:
M = E C^2. Which translates into Money equals Energy times Consumption Now and Future.

You see how energy is at the heart of money? And what is energy? The potential for work. In humans terms Energy makes our lives better and more enjoyable. Flip the equation and we see E= M/C^2. Present and future consumption divides our M and cuts our Energy.

Equations must be balanced and choices made. Still one can break out of the zero sum game through leverage. Creativity, creating new resources or combining old ones in new ways allow more work done with the same effort. This is how the wise tap the source of money.

 

 

[CloudHands]

21 hours ago, zerostao said:

money is not a necessity, a powerful illusion exists that it is. 

 

 

Not a necessity I agree but more than a illusion. A collective convention is more than an illusion.

 

20 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Strong topic.  One I've spent considerable time with over the decades, revisiting it as my life has shifted from living hand to mouth, to building an established career with some money in savings, to approaching and preparing for retirement with a diversified stock portfolio and retirement accounts.

 

The path i followed when meditating on money, inevitably led me away from money as the focus (it always seemed more a springboard) toward the deeper question of 'what has intrinsic value?'.  What is valuable?  Or what determines value in living?

Health and Safety have supreme value to me.  Family and Community.  Flowing rivers of clean water, filled with fish and stones.  Expansive forests teeming with life.  These are so valuable as to be 'beyond valuable'.

 

 

 

I remember a guy, really a bad guy, a dangerous dark troubled soul. We discussed about how we feel at this stage of our life. He said he was down because he had no money. Later he completed his thought. Not that he liked money for the value of it but for its potential. Coming from him I understood that money is power. Power to do and also power on others. Is it something you easily accept that someones accumulate so much power over others ?

 

 

20 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

It´s absolutely possible to have too much money.  There are even psychologists who specialize in the problems of the excessively moneyed.  How much is too much depends very much on the person -- as does how much is too little.  Some people are gifted (saddled?) with destinies that require riches.  There are philanthropists who receive great personal satisfaction, and do much good, putting money to work preserving the Amazon, funding cancer research, fighting hunger.  Other well-to-do folks spend on themselves in a way that gives them pleasure and I, for one, don´t begrudge them their wealth -- those Picassos aren´t gonna buy themselves.  

 

Many people have more money than is good for them.  Money can isolate people from the world and make people lonely.  It can enable sloth and all manner of vice and addiction.  Money is interpersonally tricky.  

 

I often think I could do with more money, but the truth is that I probably have just the right amount.

 

I'm on the same page Luke.

 

19 hours ago, thelerner said:

Ode to money; the lubricant of barter, the measuring stick of perceived value. We create it, name it & play with it. A useful idea, worthy servant and poor master. It Is because we think it Is. And if you don't, I have a nice P.O Box in Brooklyn for you to send it to.

Even Einstein had problems with money. In 1904 working as a patent clerk he met my great great uncle, Manny the accountant who explained it to him. Using language Einstein would understand Manny wrote this:
M = E C^2. Which translates into Money equals Energy times Consumption Now and Future.

You see how energy is at the heart of money? And what is energy? The potential for work. In humans terms Energy makes our lives better and more enjoyable. Flip the equation and we see E= M/C^2. Present and future consumption divides our M and cuts our Energy.

Equations must be balanced and choices made. Still one can break out of the zero sum game through leverage. Creativity, creating new resources or combining old ones in new ways allow more work done with the same effort. This is how the wise tap the source of money.

 

Dear Lerner. I think that's the liberal view. The purpose is to make people believe that money is an honest marker of value and that it will go naturally as fair reward for a certain work/service/good sold.

I don't think it's true. Most essential works are often underpaid compared to other that doesn't relate to necessity. Farmers, builders, first hand health workers, nursemaid, teachers, cleaners, ... I don't think they are paid fairly compared to let's say a smartphone developer (no disrespect intended), maybe that's just me. Often someone is paid according to the money that will be extracted from the work he has made. But not everything is business related. What is the real price for someone taking care of your Ma or Grand-Ma and doing it the best he/she can ? Washing her, cleaning her with respect and care ? Actually I think there is no price for that.

[CloudHands]

 Much love for you fellows and happy new year by the way !

[silent thunder]

47 minutes ago, CloudHands said:

I remember a guy, really a bad guy, a dangerous dark troubled soul. We discussed about how we feel at this stage of our life. He said he was down because he had no money. Later he completed his thought. Not that he liked money for the value of it but for its potential. Coming from him I understood that money is power. Power to do and also power on others. Is it something you easily accept that someones accumulate so much power over others ?

 

There is a point, when one acquires a certain level of money, that money shifts in what it is a means to... it seems to shift its intrinsic value to me.  I have several friends/acquaintences who are exceptionally wealthy, and my wife worked for years in Venture Capital.  From my conversations with these folks, it seems there is a point where one becomes so wealthy that money is almost meaningless any longer as a commodity for acquiring stuff, and shifts instead into a commodity that allows them to wield influence.

 

One example, I recently learned of through a paper my son worked on for his 8th grade social studies class.  Bill and Melinda Gates have recently through their incalculable levels of wealth, funded research that resulted in a new testing method for Tuberculosis, (which I was shocked to find out is still epidemic in many parts of the world).  Previously, results for testing TB required 4-8 weeks.  The new testing method @98% accurate, yields results in several hours.  This seems an example where money has shifted out of the sphere of acquiring things, into the realm of influencing life.

 

The Koch brothers for instance, use their influence in ways that turn my stomach when I read of them...

 

In the case of my wealthy acquaintences and friends, they use what to me are massive amounts of money to influence the lives of people and animals and nature in stunningly wonderful ways, and they don't bat an eye at it. 

 

As with all things, it seems a case by case situation and requires my individual judgement to determine if the influence is beneficial or harmful.  Like any tool, money is neutral.  How we wield the tool is where the seeming benefit/detraction exists.

 

I can use a screwdriver and a hammer to fix a friend's faulty door, or to break into their shed and rob them.

 

In the case of my wife's work associates in Venture Capital, one was a man with a beautiful heart and admirable character, who seemed to simply and effectively be chasing 'that next level of wealth' for security and a sense of accomplishment.  The others in the firm mocked his 'softness' but kept him about for his adroit analysis and ability to perform in profit.

 

The others in the firm (half dozen or so) were utterly predatory, dark-hearted individuals who no longer received a rush from even a major profit acquisition, but seemed to thrive instead off the adrenaline rush of 'how much can I influence/coerce folks into doing things they are uncomfortable with, through my presence and my money?'.  It was this aspect of extreme wealth, that caused me much consternation when she announced she'd taken a job in that field.

 

I'm much contented to be able to share that after years of cajoling that we would be fine without her working for this place, (she did it for the sense of security) my wife, an artist in spirit, resigned from that firm four years ago, walking away from a six figure salary, her retirement package and her stake in their investments.  It cost us a definite, secure retirement in comfort... but that type of comfort, I have never found comforting in the least. 

 

Money is a convenient manner of transfering value from services to goods on the small level.

On the grand scale, it's a means to influence societies.

 

It's neither good nor bad to me.  Money equals options in human society... but in the narual world, I'm reminded of its inherent meaninglessness/valuelessness when I'm hiking through the high desert and grow thirsty. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by silent thunder
clarify a point

[CloudHands]

3 hours ago, silent thunder said:

 

There is a point, when one acquires a certain level of money, that money shifts in what it is a means to... it seems to shift its intrinsic value to me.  I have several friends/acquaintences who are exceptionally wealthy, and my wife worked for years in Venture Capital.  From my conversations with these folks, it seems there is a point where one becomes so wealthy that money is almost meaningless any longer as a commodity for acquiring stuff, and shifts instead into a commodity that allows them to wield influence.

 

One example, I recently learned of through a paper my son worked on for his 8th grade social studies class.  Bill and Melinda Gates have recently through their incalculable levels of wealth, funded research that resulted in a new testing method for Tuberculosis, (which I was shocked to find out is still epidemic in many parts of the world).  Previously, results for testing TB required 4-8 weeks.  The new testing method @98% accurate, yields results in several hours.  This seems an example where money has shifted out of the sphere of acquiring things, into the realm of influencing life.

 

The Koch brothers for instance, use their influence in ways that turn my stomach when I read of them...

 

 

Thanks for sharing. Many accurate points I share. I don't think either money makes people more evil, it acts like a reveler.

 

Where I could disagree is the screwdriver story. A screwdriver is a simple tool. It's not comparable money which is maybe a tool but also a system that by itself influence the society. Just like advertising. I think things would be very different if we were able to deal the cards without both of them.

 

We still play this life game as selfish fighting children and that's what we now are. I understand how one can be "ok" with that.

 

Thanks for that peaceful sensitive discussion.

Edited January 5, 2020 by CloudHands

[silent thunder]

That's a good point about simple tool versus systemic influence effect... rereading it reveals to me that the screwdriver analogy is an over-simplification.  Much appreciate that, and much appreciate exploring this topic. 

[zerostao]

I have a teacher who explained that time, energy, money were equal interchangeable trading pieces.

I don't go along with that either.

Of the three pieces-- I would sacrifice money before time or energy.

I highly respect my teacher and his teachings.

There are points of departure away from the conventional along my unique path.

Money is a convenient convenience.

However, to posit that because someone has more money than me (rest assured all of you do) that they somehow have power over me, that isn't the reality at all.

Convince me otherwise by demonstrating money's power over me.

 

Hold dig foran kurvin

 

[CloudHands]

21 hours ago, zerostao said:

Of the three pieces-- I would sacrifice money before time or energy.

 

Sure

 

21 hours ago, zerostao said:

However, to posit that because someone has more money than me (rest assured all of you do) that they somehow have power over me, that isn't the reality at all.

Convince me otherwise by demonstrating money's power over me.

 

It's a difficult challenge I don't know you enough...

Maybe not you, not many people achieve frugal self contentment (I assume you do).

Needs play a major role. Sometimes you want to have money to help someone you cherish. For instance, if you had kid(s) (assuming you have not) you'd think about it differently. Maybe later I'll come back 😈

If you look around people do all kind of stuff for money, name something... it's just a matter of amount to find someone that will do it.

 

21 hours ago, zerostao said:

Hold dig foran kurvin

 

 

What does that mean ?