.

[xenolith]

No confusion.

I trust that you'll recognize that this is a matter of perception.

Did you read my post?

You would be well served to ask more substantive questions.

That's exactly what I said, except without any chakra reference.

No it wasn't and no chakra reference was made.

Reality is already here, all that's needed is awakening to it.

Duh, is there a point there?

 

"I do however find it disconcerting that you think that that's all there is to us. In my experience I certainly have this limited, conditioned part of me... but I also have a part of me that's infinite, unlimited, beyond conditioning, just containing everything..."

 

I didn't say that. Who did? You'd be well advised to provide an attribution to quotes that you use in your posts.

Edited March 6, 2008 by xenolith

[manitou]

I guess you're asking us for our personal definitions of self-realization and enlightenment?

My views on this continue to evolve but I'll give it a shot, briefly...

 

Each of us is a body equipped with a sensory appartus and associated with a process of thought.

The sensory apparatus is our only method of interacting with the environment and our process of thought is our only way of being aware of and processing that interaction. That means that all we can ever know or be aware of is limited by thought. Anything beyond our capacity for thought and experience is, well, outside our realm of experience for ever, by definition.

 

The movement of thought is such that it is never satisfied with "what is". This seems to be a consequence of the biological drive to survive (find more food, better shelter, copulation partner with better genes...) and the process of conditioning (you need to be smarter, stronger, better smelling... so that you can have more food, better partner and so on...).

This disatisfaction with "what is" extends to our understanding of spiritual matters, our sense of self, our understanding of God and the universe and so on...

 

Now, here comes the important question - "who am I?". What is it that is not satisfied with "what is" - show that to me. Localize it. Pin it down. You cannot -ever. That is because there is no me. There is the body and the sensory apparatus, but where is "me"? Me is the movement of thought centered around a collection of thoughts associated with conditioning, experience, memories, and so forth.

 

So this movement of thought surrounding the collection of memories and conditioning (ie "me") decides that there is something better. THis is because "what is", the current state of affairs is always made up of good and bad, pleasure and pain - this is a consequence of yin/yang, mutual arising. The thought arises that there is a state in which all of this conflict is resolved and there is neverending bliss. Where does this come from? Gurus, spiritual salesmen, old books and scripture, aversion to pain and suffering, you name it. But what is it really? It's just another movement of thought. Another concept derived from the known universe. Wanting what is beyond "what is". But the "me" can never go beyond itself because it is simply a construction made of thought. It has no reality beyond concept.

 

So I currently feel that this concept of perpetual enlightenment, or some state of permanent absence of thought or endless bliss is a concept of thought that is perpetually unattainable or in other words, bullshit.

I do believe that people have (and I have had) experiences of the interrelatedness of everything. I also think that one can see through the concept of individual self or separateness from other. That is, it is possible, and not too difficult, to realize that there is no "me". There is the movement of thought and this is centered around a perspective born out of memory and experience. THis awareness can be sustained and liberating. It can dramatically reduce suffering. It has for me. Yet I think there is always that biological drive to experience some sense of individual self for purposes of survival and the conditioning part is extremely difficult to let go completely but perhaps some do it eventually (Ramana, Nisargadatta, Gautama, perhaps, perhaps not).

 

I could define "the seeing through the illusion of separation" and "understanding the erroneous concept of self" as self-realization, perhaps. And at advanced levels it may completely shed all vestiges of conditioning. That would be the highest level. I could then define the idea of a permanent, blissful, thoughtless, ecstatic, higher energy state as enlightenment. If that's the case, I will state that self-realization happens to alot of us to various degrees, and enlightenment is bullshit mostly sold by charlatans. I don't really like to use those words, however, because it takes so long to define them and because so many people invest so much in the dream of "what could be". Probably an unpopular view but I'd rather be honest.

 

Just my current view and experience, FWIW...

 

 

maybe it's an awareness of who we are and of what we are a part

[mat black]

hmm, trying to put this enlightenment thing into words again haha, here's a shot at it anyway:

 

The Heavenly Lord said:

 

The empty and inexistent Original-Thusness (nature), is where Tao comes. It is real, uniform, and non-dual. The nature of it is pellucid and luminous, and it is round (perfect), bright, and self-sufficient.

 

Not falling into any views, being free from dust and defilements, having nothing more to learn, having nothing more to cultivate, understanding the Center completely, not going, coming, or staying, no choosing or excluding, neither joyous nor suffering, no death or birth, and no past or present, is the true thorough heartfelt-realization.

 

Observe all phenomena and realize that they are equal to the emptiness, eliminate the worldly delusions, and unite your body with the Original-Thusness.

 

Living beings are attached [to various things] so that discriminations arise. However, there is a perfect and penetrating truth, which you will find out when you master and digest the meanings of all things without missing any of them.

 

Chapter 27: Achieving the Reality

 

The Heavenly Lord said:

 

A commendable person who studies Tao is pure and empty so that he can embrace the oppositions, save others from dangers, relieve others from sufferings, be kind to everything, and eliminate all venomous and vicious thoughts. He regards all living beings as his own relatives, so that he always wishes to give foods and clothes to those suffering from hunger and cold, wishes to give treatments and medicines to those suffering from diseases, and wishes to reconcile those who have hatred and enmity towards each others.

 

The Heavenly Lord said:

 

Most living beings, being delusory, incorrectly perceive many and various existences; however, my Tao is originally free from existences.

 

Some living beings, being upside-down, incorrectly perceive various inexistences; however, my Tao is also free from them.

 

It is neither exist nor non-exist, and it is both exist and non-exist -- those who understand this can transcend all.

All beings are illusory created; they fall into various appearances because of their various causes. You should realize that enjoyments are equal to sufferings, and terminate all of them by One thought to reach the Non-action.

[xenolith]

matt quoted:

 

A commendable person who studies Tao is pure and empty so that he can embrace the oppositions, save others from dangers, relieve others from sufferings, be kind to everything, and eliminate all venomous and vicious thoughts. He regards all living beings as his own relatives, so that he always wishes to give foods and clothes to those suffering from hunger and cold, wishes to give treatments and medicines to those suffering from diseases, and wishes to reconcile those who have hatred and enmity towards each others.

 

Stream of Love. Highest regards tathigata matt.

[Buddy]

I trust that you'll recognize that this is a matter of perception.

 

I trust that you understand I don't have any reason to trust your perceptions

 

"You would be well served to ask more substantive questions."

 

Oh? Would I? I don't need to be well served. Perhaps mine went over your head.

 

"No it wasn't and no chakra reference was made. "

 

 

Crown chakra?

 

"Duh, is there a point there?"

 

Duh? Do you expect me me to respond like that is an adult question? You are a fake name. Why would you think I give a rat's ass what you you think?

 

"< do however find it disconcerting that you think that that's all there is to us. In my experience I certainly have this limited, conditioned part of me... but I also have a part of me that's infinite, unlimited, beyond "conditioning, just containing everything...">

 

I didn't say that. Who did? You'd be well advised to provide an attribution to quotes that you use in your posts."

 

Sorry, it's not my job to see that you can follow the conversation.

[三江源]

I just want to post a heads up to those of you intrigued by various types of enlightenment, ( that's all of us, right? ) - there's a great online book by Daniel Ingram in Ian's thread of that name, which really does give a great lowdown on the various Enlightenments, in some detail. It's the clearest thing I've read on the topic.

 

I'm not going to link it here, because I'm hoping the discussion - if there is to be any - will kick off in Ian's thread, so it is all in one place.

 

I hope some of you will read it and comment. I'm reading it currently, myself.

 

It's easy to read too.

 

 

Have fun!

[freeform]

My apologies, Steve, we do, indeed agree quite closely.

 

Illusion can actually be broken down quite quickly - it starts with the senses. The mind uses internal sensory representations to create 'thought'. Think of a person you like (what do they look like?) - now think of a person you dislike (what do they look like?), if you do this with some awareness, you might notice that you mad mental pictures, and the pictures were located differently - the position of the picture affects whether you like someone or not! There is a lot of scope to playing with this, but you can stop this 'thinking' entirely by going 'external'.

 

After reading this, you might want to give it a try (and I don't mean just Steve - but whoever might be interested)... pick a spot slightly above eye level and look at it. Notice yourself focusing in on it. Then begin to spread that focus - keep your eyes on the spot but notice what else is to the left of you, what's to the right, above and below - use the periphery of your vision. (you may notice yourself immediately relax when you do this) take a little bit of time to really expand your periphery, and see everything around you all at the same time. Once this stabilises you can begin to imagine that your entire body becomes a visual sense organ - notice how your entire body can perceive light - so whilst keeping your periphery open, also start seeing through your body... let this stabilise. There is a very expansive feeling that happens when you do this... This is just a taster, there is much more scope for exploration - for a start you have 4 other senses, and there is far more one can play with just the visual sense (as a hint - consider that not only your body is a sensory organ, but absolutely anything that can reflect light...)

 

Doing this really gets you out of your head, thoughts stop, awareness expands... practising something like this makes it very obvious what making 'illusions' is like and what being aware is like.

 

That form of expanded sensory awareness can be rather disorienting - (because orientation is a function of the ego mind) - the best I can describe it is it's like being a baby - unlimited curiosity.

 

Todd mentioned something else in another post - he mentioned putting awareness on awareness itself... becoming limitlessly curious about attention creates a spiral of self-actualization (I don't agree with being self-actualized - this has nothing to do with a static state, but this spiral-like movement)...

 

 

Actually, I think we're saying nearly exactly the same thing. We are literally everything and at the same time we are this little portal, limited to the finite nature of our senses and thought, through which the universe is aware of itself. We can experience to some degree that wholeness of "what is" while at the same time maintaining the more limited perspective that allows us to carry out our day to day functions and participate in life's joys and sorrows.

 

I didn't mean to imply that we are limited, quite to the contrary. I think that the limited perspective is the illusion. What I do mean to say is that "what is" is "what is" and it is a trick of the "me", the conditioned movement of thought centered around the memories stored in our brains, that is designed to try and find a better "what could be" that will always be beyond our grasp and keep us on the spiritual treadmill.

 

I feel that it is precisely that search for "what could be" which prevents enlightenment or self-realization or whatever you want to call it. It is the spiritual quest that prevents enlightenment. THis is why Todd is correct (in another thread - I've forgotten which one) that holding onto the questioning mind, the mind of inquiry, the mind that does not know is just the place that we struggle to reach with other methods, like meditation and so forth. Once "what could be" is dropped and one falls into "what is" in it's miraculous entirety then we can be the whole thing and transcend the limited perspective of one who is searching for something. Being with "what is" very fully is what allows the doer to merge with what is being done. It is not the answer that is of value, it is the question. The question, the lack of knowledge, is pregnant with possibility. The answer is dead because it is finite - there can never be a satisfactory answer.

Again, just my limited perspective - words can never do this stuff justice.

[cloud recluse]

"Self-Realization", a linear journey , a progression. So, a matter subject to conditions & states, limitations . Everyone , always, is going through a greater or lesser degree of self-realisation, more or less succesfully, subject to varying results .

.

Its an endless journey. Always , a new horizon to cross, a new experiment in as yet undetermined potentials. And a journey undertaken from many different perspectives. Enlightened or Unenlightened .

 

Enlightenment, Liberation. Freedom from conditions. Non-conditional freedom .

So, cant be a 'state' or vulnerable to states . Not an addition or new 'state', but the removal of a burden , a central confusion that is exhausting to maintain . The relinquishing of a self-defeating duality. The removal of grating futility from the Journey. Freeing up our participation in the journey, NO MATTER which part of the journey we are currently undergoing .

 

Two 'seperate' factors that are intimately interconnected but radically diferent. One of linear goals, one of Immediate Ground .

 

Confuse the linear with the immediate, & you spend a long time chasing your tail trying to 'get' Enlightenment

 

Regards, Cloud

Edited March 6, 2008 by cloud recluse