Nungali Posted January 19, 2020 (edited) This first appeared in another thread posted by Apech but I think it deserves its own separate one . It is a complex but interesting phase in history . Just for discussion. Edited January 19, 2020 by Nungali 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gendao Posted January 19, 2020 (edited) Interesting, although not nearly as sensational as the headline implies. It's not like these bodies were found in central/Eastern China where all the major population centers have always been. No, they were found in Gumugou, in the far NW corner of China by the Kunlun and Tianshan mountains. Now if these bodies had been found maybe just ~300 miles further west in ME/central Asian countries/US military targets like Afghanistan...where there are still people who look like this: Then there wouldn't be nearly as much "cognitive dissonance" in people. Edited January 19, 2020 by gendao 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted January 19, 2020 What! Afghanistan is full of photoshopped THOTs! I never knew. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 19, 2020 (edited) 22 hours ago, Nungali said: This first appeared in another thread posted by Apech but I think it deserves its own separate one . It is a complex but interesting phase in history . Just for discussion. My first question is , when these people lived in Tarim Basin , was that China then ? Ingress into that area seems more obvious from the west . Chinese records know of these people 'from the western region ' , but was that ' China' back then - where 'barbarians' living in the western region or was there a region to the west that was 'barbarian ' country ? I am wondering if the northern people ( 'Tocharian' A) came into the area, as vid shows , with an Andronovo origin - 'IE Steppe People' and the southern settlement came in via 'Bactria' / Pamirs - 'Iranian speakers' . Stories (myths, scripture, etc ) tell of a very old culture in Pamirs . [My contention is it has passed into human memory as Airyana Vaeja (meaning and old remembered 'Homelend', before their descendants moved west into Margiana / south Central Asia, which eventually became their Urheimat homeland - 'Yaz' , now accepted as the area of the Pishdadian Era / Iranian mythology . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaz_culture http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/legendary/index.htm ] If we follow up into the NE of the Oxus tributaries, they penetrate into Pamirs and further provide alternative eastern route from Pamirs into south Tarim Basin - the main route in from the west . https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9529874,71.9121029,572857m/data=!3m1!1e3 What could have happened is longer ago than presently realised , people moved from 'Iran' into south Central Asia, Oasis hopped, via Margiana over to the Oxus, then went up the tributaries into Pamirs (and north) where they established their settlements, then onto the SW Tarim Basin where the same 'Oasis hopping' along the south edge of a desert was possible ... and perhaps even better . * Climate may have been way better warmer and less dry as well ( the Avesta describes an ancient climate change - cold and that means more snow and ice and less rain ) . Climate change drove movement back westwards out the high mountains back into Oxus Valley / Margiana and eventually to Yaz (by now the 'Iranians' had strong influence from northern IE, (who have said to have 'run' BMAC at its final stages, before movement into India) . This 'record' (from myth and scripture) ends at the end of the Yaz period - it breaks off and doesnt start again. But they seemed to know of far away lands to the west ( their ancient and unremembered home ) , and north of the Zargos and up to near Turkey. They emerged in history around the times of Assyrians as 'Pasa' (origins of Persians) from the Zargos down into eastern Mesopotamia. ( And then went back east and claimed their old areas as eastern satrapies of Achaemenid Empire ) The movement of Andronovo people into North Tarim is probably represented by the upper right arrow [ Aside ; are not 'Caucasians' still living in that area of Western China ? https://www.quora.com/Is-there-an-ethnic-group-in-Western-China-that-is-mostly-Caucasian ] Interesting to note the ephedra included in burials , the vid relates it to Soma ; some people think ephedra is soma , apparently a draught is easily purchased today in Tajikistan markets and that is made from ephedra Edited January 19, 2020 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 19, 2020 (edited) " "cognitive dissonance" in people ", Eh ? 20 hours ago, gendao said: Interesting, although not nearly as sensational as the headline implies. It's not like these bodies were found in central/Eastern China where all the major population centers have always been. I agree with the words , but why then did you choose a map that shows ingress of Chinese into that area ??? In any case, the reason that there are huge and diverse Caucasian ethnic groups in western China is that area was never China in the first place . Quote No, they were found in Gumugou, in the far NW corner of China by the Kunlun and Tianshan mountains. Now if these bodies had been found maybe just ~300 miles further west in ME/central Asian countries/US military targets like Afghanistan...where there are still people who look like this: Then there wouldn't be nearly as much "cognitive dissonance" in people. 'Interesting' selections you made to represent those people Not sure of your point , since Caucasians live and lived much further east , much closer to China https://www.quora.com/Is-there-an-ethnic-group-in-Western-China-that-is-mostly-Caucasian Edited January 19, 2020 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gendao Posted January 20, 2020 3 hours ago, Nungali said: I agree with the words , but why then did you choose a map that shows ingress of Chinese into that area ??? In any case, the reason that there are huge and diverse Caucasian ethnic groups in western China is that area was never China in the first place . Not sure of your point , since Caucasians live and lived much further east , much closer to China https://www.quora.com/Is-there-an-ethnic-group-in-Western-China-that-is-mostly-Caucasian It was taken from this article: Quote "The dominant haplogroup," they write, "in the Xiaohe people was the East Eurasian lineage C" which corresponds with a likely origin in South Siberia. But there were also "two West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups H and K." In looking more closely at the lineages and mutations, however, Li and colleagues noted that several of the samples had mutations that are either rare in modern people or are not found in modern gene banks. They further analyzed Y chromosome haplogroups to attempt to identify major branches of the male line. But all seven males in the study belonged to a haplogroup that is widely distributed throughout Eurasia. "Considering the presence of haplogroups H and K in the Xiaohe people and the geographical distribution of shared sequences, we conclude that the west Eurasian component observed in the Xiaohe people originated from western Europe, and maternal ancestry of the Xiaohe people might have close relationships with western Europeans," The arrows might simply signify the "direction" of the Silk Road (as labeled in the map)...not migration? And China as a nation (or any national boundaries) is irrelevant with regards to genetic groupings. Nationality and "ethnicity" are entirely independent. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 20, 2020 16 hours ago, gendao said: It was taken from this article: The arrows might simply signify the "direction" of the Silk Road (as labeled in the map)...not migration? And China as a nation (or any national boundaries) is irrelevant with regards to genetic groupings. Nationality and "ethnicity" are entirely independent. Wot ? China exported silk to BMAC 2000 BC ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gendao Posted January 21, 2020 6 hours ago, Nungali said: Wot ? China exported silk to BMAC 2000 BC ? I dunno, I didn't draw the map, dude... Nor are ancient migrations remotely my specialty. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 21, 2020 No, but you posted it , and I was wondering why THAT one , out of all the maps you could have used . The info on it seems misleading . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 21, 2020 I suppose it was just the first map thaat came up on one of your google searches, thats why . Anyway , I have the paper that comes with it now , so I will read it myself, perhaps that explains why the map has 'silk route' written on it . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
