Is karma( or cause and effect ) the ultimate teacher / punisher ?

[kyoji]

I saw this quote from Camus today

(check picture at bottom of this post) , and I started thinking about it for a while, and I started conceptualizing Kamma itself as Punisher / Teacher. 
 

I am pretty sure it veers away from Camus’ point, but I’m gonna pour out some of my inner ramblings and thoughts here anyways in hopes it stirs something up In some of you lovely people here at TDB. 
 

 

Soooooo...

 

The mind that we have to live with is in some sense, the fruit of all of our actions. This is why we are ourselves are our own punishers / punishment.    No outsourcing to a god OR fellow man is even required as far as I am concerned. It is much easier albeit, to shake our fists at the sky pretending the we had no part to play in the dramas of our lives , or in the state of mind we live with, preferring to instead blame it on randomness, fate, god.... the list goes on..  Why a good portion of the religious feel the need to point fingers on moral subjects is beyond me... and why people on the other side would point back at the religious, and fight tooth and nail over trivialities surrounding morality seems completely absurd to me, and like a colossal waste of time / life.  
Let Kamma (Karma) do it’s thing! people will be judged accordingly by the results of their actions alone, isn’t it so ? This sort of “justice“ let’s say might not be as swift as you feel a facebook comment section battle, or some kind of heated altercation is, but I think it is in some sense  a much sweeter, and truer  form of Justice than the form you think you serve from having opinions/convictions, that you spew venomously at your opposition.  

 

This world is not at all random,  yet our feeble human minds inability to order it makes it feel very chaotic at times. I think we have all experienced this type of dis-order on some level.  Your time is much better spent focussing on yourself and figuring out how to live your life skillfully than it is stuck judging everyone else but yourself.  

 

You don’t even know how to live your life the right way , what makes you think  you can figure out somebody elses well ?

 

I don’t think I would have ever changed my ways for any god I was just told to believe in on blind faith, or even at the outrage of my fellow man.  What it took for me to change my ways was all of  the negative Kamma i received from past transgressions and misdeeds, which  led me to a period  of complete suffering and pain, until I could no longer live with it. 
 

It was the birth of the  “why?” 
 

An attention to detail needed to develop,  paired with a brutal honesty about my actions and there affect on the life of myself and “others”. 
 

This could only come about because of the mistakes I made , leading to this immense suffering, which progressed into a need to understand the suffering in order to bring it to its end. 
 

I Studied the past to understand the present, and worked with the present to dictate and pave the future towards a more skillful and harmonious way of being.
 

When we are judging morally , is it because we want to be right and feel righteous ? Or is it because you want to help somebody in some way shape or form, so that they do not have to live with the terrible consequences of their actions ? If it is the latter, it you cannot dissuade someone from wrong doings in an easy going and loving way, let them make their mistakes. Do not hold onto anger or resentment for this person, it is not good for them , and it is certainly not for yourself.  Let Kamma kick their ass and mop the floor with them , it is the only way some people learn.. it was the only way for me anyways. 
 

Anyways that is enough rambling for now. Now it’s your guys’ turn !!! Hoping to get some interesting dialogue going. I hope this was coherent and clear, in a bit of a funny head space today so I’m hoping this did not come out as too all over 

 

your brother in dao,

 

kyoji

 

Edited January 26, 2020 by kyoji

[thelerner]

Old thread that never took off.

Is karma( or cause and effect ) the ultimate teacher / punisher ?

bump.

 

I'd say yes, but its by no means the only teacher.  Or the only force out there.  Nor do I think it's intelligent, or necessarily fitting into our concept of human justice.

[kyoji]

On 10/8/2020 at 12:09 PM, thelerner said:

Old thread that never took off.

Is karma( or cause and effect ) the ultimate teacher / punisher ?

bump.

 

I'd say yes, but its by no means the only teacher.  Or the only force out there.  Nor do I think it's intelligent, or necessarily fitting into our concept of human justice.

what do you mean by "our concept of human justice"?

 

Ahah, this post o'mine feels like it was from another life. Yet, I agree with the sentiment almost more today than I did when I first posted it.

 

Some people just do not learn via collective knowledge very well, and need to feel scorched finger tips in order to not touch hot embers. Of  course, even the sensation of burning flesh is not enough for some. It is funny how many people are complaining about a lack of good teachers out there.. I feel like what is really lacking are all the good students.  We need less teacher training, and more training to be a good student.

 

 

[thelerner]

1 hour ago, kyoji said:

what do you mean by "our concept of human justice"?

 

I was thinkin our concept of human justice tends to be Disney-esque.   We view the world from a short term, highly personal lens.  Thus there's a strong tendency to feel victimized, when.. it's life. 

 

If one assumes life is supposed to be fair, then you'll be victimized twice.  That's not to say we're powerless but its a big world with a 1,000 players and 1,000 things in motion.  Sometimes we're trampled.  Hopefully when it happens we can get up and keep going. 

 

Guess I'm thinking its a mechanized universe that doesn't care.  But that doesn't mean we shouldn't.  Probably points to we need to care more. 

 

 

[RiverSnake]

Karma is You. 

[kyoji]

6 minutes ago, RiverSnake said:

Karma is You. 

Elucidate ? are you underhandedly calling me nothing but a result of cause and effect, without any imperial self?  I would myself consider that to only be half true!

 

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by kyoji

[silent thunder]

5 hours ago, kyoji said:

I feel like what is really lacking are all the good students.

this.

 

When I began to open to learning, and to listening.

Listening with my whole being... all of Life revealed itself as Teacher.

[kyoji]

On 11/5/2020 at 9:41 PM, silent thunder said:

this.

 

When I began to open to learning, and to listening.

Listening with my whole being... all of Life revealed itself as Teacher.

 Shoshin (初心)  or Beginners Mind was the most important thing for me to cultivate..

For the expert, the possibilities are not many, whereas for the beginner they are aplenty.

 

 

[Luxin]

On 27/01/2020 at 4:40 AM, kyoji said:

Let Kamma (Karma) do it’s thing! people will be judged accordingly by the results of their actions alone, isn’t it so ?

Ball against wall.
What goes out
comes back.

 

[kyoji]

On 11/10/2020 at 1:16 PM, Luxin said:

Ball against wall.
What goes out
comes back.

 

( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°)

[old3bob]

 

 

[kyoji]

17 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

 

White Bird must fly,

Or she will die!

[old3bob]

46 minutes ago, kyoji said:

White Bird must fly,

Or she will die!

 

agreed up to a point but there is a purity which karma can never reach or degrade bind and thus is eternally free and deathless, even if or when not manifesting in that way.

Edited November 15, 2020 by old3bob

[stirling]

As long as we are seeing from the relative view, Karma will always catch and snag us where we have clinging and aversion. The "path" (if such a thing ever existed) is as simple as seeing what the dharmakaya, from which all arising phenomena and their interaction borne situations arise, shows us about WHERE we are snagged and where our concretions of ideas are. 

 

What arises is always pointing back to the empty NON-arising quality of things as they truly are.

 

Karma exists and happens until it is experientially understood and the completely pervasive that there is no-one to have or, literally, embody Karma.

Edited November 15, 2020 by stirling

[doc benway]

Karma can be both a teacher and punisher, a bit like gravity...

It’s all in how we look at it.

[old3bob]

indeed, like a curse later being seen as a blessing, or even a blessing later being seen like a curse...depending on we how react to them.

[kyoji]

Is it weird to believe in a personal will, and complete determinism at the same time? 

 

@old3bob @steve @stirling

3 hours ago, steve said:

Karma can be both a teacher and punisher, a bit like gravity...

It’s all in how we look at it.

 

Is the skill in which we use, adapt, and react to such a force important just the same as our perspective?

[old3bob]

13 minutes ago, kyoji said:

Is it weird to believe in a personal will, and complete determinism at the same time? 

 

@old3bob @steve @stirling

 

Is the skill in which we use, adapt, and react to such a force important just the same as our perspective?

 

perspective should inform but what is done with the information is paramount...

 

[doc benway]

46 minutes ago, kyoji said:

Is it weird to believe in a personal will, and complete determinism at the same time? 

 

@old3bob @steve @stirling

 

Is the skill in which we use, adapt, and react to such a force important just the same as our perspective?

 

I wouldn’t say it’s weird.

Personal will doesn’t necessarily negate complete determinism.

 

I guess one could say the skill is important to practitioners.

[stirling]

2 hours ago, kyoji said:

Is it weird to believe in a personal will, and complete determinism at the same time? 

 

You can believe in both at the same time, however both are just thoughts happening now. Beliefs don't have any reality of their own. Where are either of those ideas in the quiet empty stillness in between thoughts?

 

 

Quote

Is the skill in which we use, adapt, and react to such a force important just the same as our perspective?

 

Skill is the same illusion as volition. Even intention only arises in this moment. Where are skill or perspective in the quiet empty stillness in between thoughts? Who is there to have any of these qualities there? Self is just another idea happening now, when the idea passes, so does self.

[Luxin]

error post, pardon me.

Edited November 16, 2020 by Luxin
error

[old3bob]

a fine warning below:

 

ByYutangLin  "Teaching of "Non-form" indicates non-attachment to form. Misinterpreted, it is adopted as holding to absence of form. Abiding in no forms at all, one falls into the abyss of void. Only in no grasping to form or non-form lies true liberation".

 

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by old3bob

[kyoji]

 

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

a fine warning below:

 

ByYutangLin  "Teaching of "Non-form" indicates non-attachment to form. Misinterpreted, it is adopted as holding to absence of form. Abiding in no forms at all, one falls into the abyss of void. Only in no grasping to form or non-form lies true liberation".

 

 

I'm not sure  I follow really. Is this similar to the idea of two truths, the ultimate and the conventional, and not leaning towards one extremity/ the four extremes?

 

17 hours ago, stirling said:

 

You can believe in both at the same time, however both are just thoughts happening now. Beliefs don't have any reality of their own. Where are either of those ideas in the quiet empty stillness in between thoughts?

 

 

 

Skill is the same illusion as volition. Even intention only arises in this moment. Where are skill or perspective in the quiet empty stillness in between thoughts? Who is there to have any of these qualities there? Self is just another idea happening now, when the idea passes, so does self.

 

Where is your silence while engaged in thought? Where is your stillness when in motion?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

51 minutes ago, kyoji said:

 

I'm not sure  I follow really. Is this similar to the idea of two truths, the ultimate and the conventional, and not leaning towards one extremity/ the four extremes?

 

 

listed that quote because of the near constant remarks in so many posts about "emptiness" which to me can be empty of meaning unless one knows 1st hand what it means, thus the emptiness idea can turn into  a problem.. and is not unlike what Lin Yutang  is trying to point out imo... 

Edited November 16, 2020 by old3bob

[kyoji]

 

28 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

listed that quote because of the near constant remarks in so many posts about "emptiness" which to me can be empty of meaning unless one knows 1st hand what it means, thus the emptiness idea can turn into  a problem.. and is not unlike what Lin Yutang  is trying to point out imo... 

It seems to me that a lot of time voidness and emptiness do indeed get confused for one another... I guess it mostly just depends on context, but what doesn't !!!

 

I saw the emptiness ( I think/believe) in my fleeting glimpse, and I can only conceptualize it after the fact as the all ground of everything in it's unmanifest form, and when the light entered myriad things were born of it.  I don't think that makes the realm of the manifest any less real than the ground it emerges from.

 

This is all I can offer further on this specific subject, and I don't know if this remark stays on topic or not. Language is tricky.