Is karma( or cause and effect ) the ultimate teacher / punisher ?

[stirling]

1 hour ago, kyoji said:

 

I'm not sure  I follow really. Is this similar to the idea of two truths, the ultimate and the conventional, and not leaning towards one extremity/ the four extremes?

 

You didn't ask me obviously, but I just want to add that the IDEA of emptiness/ripga/nature of mind is not emptiness/rigpa/nature of mind. Grasping at ANYTHING, including a reified "emptiness" is not it. Once seen and understood, and once "self" is finally seen through, you can't really get lost in anything (void included). So, as you suggest, it is a relative/conventional idea to be careful of falling into the trap of reifying "emptiness" as a concept or influence on behavior. 

 

Quote

Where is your silence while engaged in thought? Where is your stillness when in motion?

 

Imagine you weren't aware of temperature as a quality of reality. People would say that they were cold or hot, and you would have no idea what they meant and think they were crazy. Then, one day, the quality of temperature becomes known to you as something that seems to underly all of your experiences. You could now incline your mind toward your sense of temperature and be aware of it at any time it occurs to you. Eventually, perhaps, you could even ALWAYS be present with this quality. 

 

Silence (as a "quality of emptiness") is always present. Emptiness/rigpa/nature of mind is always present. There is always this quiet empty stillness, even when walking, or on a busy street corner, or as a thought arises and passes. It is the one pervasive constant of reality.

 

In relative terms the silence is an underlying quality to ALL arising and passing of phenomena. You can taste this stillness in meditation, in the quiet moments in between thoughts. In those moments there is resting in enlightened mind, and how things are seen is not different than enlightened mind, though NOT enlightenment itself, which is insight.

[stirling]

30 minutes ago, kyoji said:

I saw the emptiness ( I think/believe) in my fleeting glimpse, and I can only conceptualize it after the fact as the all ground of everything in it's unmanifest form, and when the light entered myriad things were born of it.  I don't think that makes the realm of the manifest any less real than the ground it emerges from.

 

Have you seen it since? Do you think you would recognize it again if you saw it? 

[kyoji]

Just now, stirling said:

 

Have you seen it since? Do you think you would recognize it again if you saw it? 

It seems to me to be a repeatable experience, and the methods are few.. However, no I cannot say with absolute certainty that I will have that same experience again, although I  could certainly recognize it should I.

 

5 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

You didn't ask me obviously, but I just want to add that the IDEA of emptiness/ripga/nature of mind is not emptiness/rigpa/nature of mind. Grasping at ANYTHING, including a reified "emptiness" is not it. Once seen and understood, and once "self" is finally seen through, you can't really get lost in anything (void included). So, as you suggest, it is a relative/conventional idea to be careful of falling into the trap of reifying "emptiness" as a concept or influence on behavior. 

 

 

Imagine you weren't aware of temperature as a quality of reality. People would say that they were cold or hot, and you would have no idea what they meant and think they were crazy. Then, one day, the quality of temperature becomes known to you as something that seems to underly all of your experiences. You could now incline your mind toward your sense of temperature and be aware of it at any time it occurs to you. Eventually, perhaps, you could even ALWAYS be present with this quality. 

 

Silence (as a "quality of emptiness") is always present. Emptiness/rigpa/nature of mind is always present. There is always this quiet empty stillness, even when walking, or on a busy street corner, or as a thought arises and passes. It is the one pervasive constant of reality.

 

In relative terms the silence is an underlying quality to ALL arising and passing of phenomena. You can taste this stillness in meditation, in the quiet moments in between thoughts. In those moments there is resting in enlightened mind, and how things are seen is not different than enlightened mind, though NOT enlightenment itself, which is insight.

I didn't ask, but I appreciate you stimulating thought/conversation nonetheless Hmm, I do find your thoughts hard to follow 100% , so figure me in my novice ways. Is movement not always present as well? Is the seed of one always contained in the other ? (i.e. the taiji? )

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

 

In Hinduism it would basically be said that the eternal Self does see through the self...I don't think many Buddhists would accept that...

Also in Hindusim the term "mind" is not enlightened per-se as the Self is although it may be stilled,  for it is inherently dualistic which is as far as it can go..

[kyoji]

19 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

In Hinduism it would basically be said that the eternal Self does see through the self...I don't think many Buddhists would accept that...

Also in Hindusim the term "mind" is not enlightened per-se as the Self is although it may be stilled,  for it is inherently dualistic which is as far as it can go..

but does this seeing mean that self must be abandoned just because it is temporary,  and not lacking ultimate reality?

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, kyoji said:

but does this seeing mean that self must be abandoned just because it is temporary,  and not lacking ultimate reality?

 

nope,  a raft may be set down and also picked back up...to beat around the bush of a Buddhist saying.

[silent thunder]

7 hours ago, kyoji said:

Where is your silence while engaged in thought? Where is your stillness when in motion?

*bow* 

Thank you.

 

Synchronicity.

[kyoji]

36 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

nope,  a raft may be set down and also picked back up...to beat around the bush of a Buddhist saying.

"I" like that 

25 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

*bow* 

Thank you.

 

Synchronicity.

 

you're welcome, m'friend.

[stirling]

21 hours ago, kyoji said:

It seems to me to be a repeatable experience, and the methods are few.. However, no I cannot say with absolute certainty that I will have that same experience again, although I  could certainly recognize it should I.

 

It is unlikely that it will ever appear as an "experience" in the same way, however the underlying quality of emptiness (if there is insight) will show up when the mind is quiet and empty. Experiences are never the same, but the underlying quality is always the same.

 

Quote

I didn't ask, but I appreciate you stimulating thought/conversation nonetheless Hmm, I do find your thoughts hard to follow 100% , so figure me in my novice ways. Is movement not always present as well? Is the seed of one always contained in the other ? (i.e. the taiji? )

 

Phenomena are constantly arising and passing in a constant outpouring, but they are always "empty" of anything that has any intrinsic (belonging to itself) existence. The existence of any thing existing as a separate entity is illusory, but the label-less phenomena arise naturally and constantly, just as the emptiness does.

[old3bob]

illusion per-se can not arise out of reality/truth, thus the only illusion there can be is in incomplete or limited perception...and I'd add that such is not convoluted rocket science.

Edited November 17, 2020 by old3bob

[stirling]

Quote

 

The Parable of the Raft

 

"Imagine, friends, a man in the course of a journey who arrives at a great expanse of water, whose near bank is dangerous and whose far bank offers safety. But there is no ferryboat or bridge to take him across the water. So he thinks: "What if I collected grass, twigs, branches and leaves and bound them together as a raft? Supported by the raft and by paddling with my hands and feet, I should then be able to reach the far bank."

 

“He does this and succeeds in getting across."

 

“On arriving at the far bank, it might occur to him: "This raft has been very helpful indeed. What if I were to hoist it on my head or shoulders, then proceed on my journey?". Now, what do you think? By carrying it with him, would that man be doing what should be done with a raft?"

 

“’No, sir," replied his audience.

 

“’So what should he do with the raft? Having arrived at the far bank, he might think: "Yes, this raft has been very useful, but now I should just haul it onto dry land or leave it floating in the water, and then continue on my journey." In this way the man would be doing what should be done with that raft."

 

“The dharma too is like a raft. It serves the purpose of crossing over, not the purpose of grasping."

 

“When you understand that the dharma is like a raft, and that you should let go even of positive things (dhamma), then how much more so should you let go of negative things (adhamma).” [MN 22]

 

 

Once the river is crossed the dharma isn't needed, and doesn't really even make sense from the perspective of the absolute.

 

Quote

“The awakened mind is turned upside down and does not accord even with the Buddha-wisdom.” - Hui Hai

 

It is a relative teaching, ultimately, a raft intended to get the student across the river.

[stirling]

8 minutes ago, old3bob said:

illusion per-se can not arise out of reality/truth, thus the only illusion there can be is in incomplete or limited perception...and I'd add that such is not convoluted rocket science.

 

Right? It's is simply a shift in perspective, not the seeing of something that wasn't always there. It doesn't actually even require effort, but instead the ceasing of effort.

[kyoji]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

illusion per-se can not arise out of reality/truth, thus the only illusion there can be is in incomplete or limited perception...and I'd add that such is not convoluted rocket science.

Perception is always limited.

 

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

It is unlikely that it will ever appear as an "experience" in the same way, however the underlying quality of emptiness (if there is insight) will show up when the mind is quiet and empty. Experiences are never the same, but the underlying quality is always the same.

 

 

Phenomena are constantly arising and passing in a constant outpouring, but they are always "empty" of anything that has any intrinsic (belonging to itself) existence. The existence of any thing existing as a separate entity is illusory, but the label-less phenomena arise naturally and constantly, just as the emptiness does.

Idk, the Jhanas are pretty darn repeatable. 

 

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Right? It's is simply a shift in perspective, not the seeing of something that wasn't always there. It doesn't actually even require effort, but instead the ceasing of effort.

Of course it was always there... But it means jack shit to one, if one never finds it.

[kyoji]

Are you two beyond becoming? @old3bob @stirling

Edited November 17, 2020 by kyoji

[old3bob]

18 hours ago, kyoji said:

Are you two beyond becoming? @old3bob @stirling

 

There is only one  Self in the many. 

That Self knows the Self,  (and of the many)

Thus is freedom.

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by old3bob

[stirling]

21 hours ago, kyoji said:

Idk, the Jhanas are pretty darn repeatable.

 

They are repeatable, but are they the SAME every time? Is any moment ever the same as another? 

[stirling]

It would be complicated to answer the question as asked. How about:

 

In this moment there is Rigpa. There is no "I" that contains it.

[Luxin]

On 27/01/2020 at 4:40 AM, kyoji said:

Your time is much better spent focussing on yourself and figuring out how to live your life skillfully than it is stuck judging everyone else but yourself.

Indeed. As time has gone on the more I see that others are none of my business. My true business is me, which sounds self-centred but really isn't. Only a person themself can make any progress with their life. Others can inspire us, but we alone have to do the work.

[natural]

9 minutes ago, Luxin said:

Indeed. As time has gone on the more I see that others are none of my business. My true business is me, which sounds self-centred but really isn't. Only a person themself can make any progress with their life. Others can inspire us, but we alone have to do the work.

 

I have led many a horse to water and damn if I had any luck in making them drink.

On the other hand I have followed along behind horses on many occasions who sought water when they wanted it, and got their fill despite me trying to lead them otherwise.

I won't even begin to discuss the intelligence of mules...