alchemystical Posted January 27, 2020 Preface: No limits on this discussion, all viewpoints welcome, no dogma is subscribed to by me. Can't say I know much about the Vedic culture as I'm just learning but a quick glance through the years and some points stand out which I'd like to discuss with the more knowledgeable members on board: How in the heck did people who apparently had a very rudimentary culture in terms of buildings etc.. have things that sound like war planes/some kind of flight craft equipped with weapons that seem either nuclear or laser based. Its all very Star Wars and the Vader/Veda thing doesn't escape me either. From what I've read they were powered by a different, non electrical power source that may have used mercury and a totally different view of physics/knowledge of the basis of reality. Obviously this has been seized upon by ancient alien people and totally mangled on top of the already shaky translations of Sanskrit (which is apparently supposed to be one of the most complex, in depth languages ever as its packed with nuance and subtlety which evades translation). Its quite perplexing for many that our ancestors in the past were more advanced than us in the present but things like the Pyramids in Egypt prove that man of the past was far more resourceful than we are now. Plus there is the whole "Where did the Vedics come from angle" which I'd welcome some more insight on. One thing I do firmly believe is that we're taught a load of mistruths and flat out lies when it comes to this culture and its significance for whatever reason but I do find it very fascinating. Loads of things I wonder including: What were their origins? Where did they come from? Whats the deal with the way their gods/goddesses look? Was their culture local or global like Christianity is now? How did they amass such insight without technology? Why did they live such seemingly basic lives? I could continue on... Your insight is welcomed. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alchemystical Posted January 27, 2020 As linked by @dwai in a previous thread that appears to have ascended: 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ralis Posted January 27, 2020 23 minutes ago, alchemystical said: As linked by @dwai in a previous thread that appears to have ascended: Sri Aurobindo wrote extensively on the Vedas which I highly recommend his writings on the subject. In his writings he clearly stated that he was a Vedic Rishi in a previous lifetime. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 27, 2020 1 hour ago, alchemystical said: Preface: No limits on this discussion, all viewpoints welcome, no dogma is subscribed to by me. Can't say I know much about the Vedic culture as I'm just learning but a quick glance through the years and some points stand out which I'd like to discuss with the more knowledgeable members on board: How in the heck did people who apparently had a very rudimentary culture in terms of buildings etc.. have things that sound like war planes/some kind of flight craft equipped with weapons that seem either nuclear or laser based. Its all very Star Wars and the Vader/Veda thing doesn't escape me either. From what I've read they were powered by a different, non electrical power source that may have used mercury and a totally different view of physics/knowledge of the basis of reality. Obviously this has been seized upon by ancient alien people and totally mangled on top of the already shaky translations of Sanskrit (which is apparently supposed to be one of the most complex, in depth languages ever as its packed with nuance and subtlety which evades translation). Its quite perplexing for many that our ancestors in the past were more advanced than us in the present but things like the Pyramids in Egypt prove that man of the past was far more resourceful than we are now. Plus there is the whole "Where did the Vedics come from angle" which I'd welcome some more insight on. One thing I do firmly believe is that we're taught a load of mistruths and flat out lies when it comes to this culture and its significance for whatever reason but I do find it very fascinating. Loads of things I wonder including: What were their origins? Where did they come from? Whats the deal with the way their gods/goddesses look? Was their culture local or global like Christianity is now? How did they amass such insight without technology? Why did they live such seemingly basic lives? I could continue on... Your insight is welcomed. Human history is certainly older than what is taught today. The biggest problem with studying history is the unscientific insertion of the Biblical creation myth, which messed up study of the chronology of civilizations and still passes off as 'gospel truth' today in the academic circles. 3 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 27, 2020 1 hour ago, alchemystical said: As linked by @dwai in a previous thread that appears to have ascended: That was very strange -- "lets start with a false assumption and not entertain any other data" -- and when that was challenged, delete the thread! 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted January 27, 2020 Aaaah, I see the Cognitive Dissonance Fairy has been visiting again... 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 27, 2020 3 hours ago, dwai said: Human history is certainly older than what is taught today. The biggest problem with studying history is the unscientific insertion of the Biblical creation myth, Whereas in India , no such thing ever happened and still today , Indian religious scripture has no effect on their understanding of history and they do not have unscientific insertion of religious scriptural creation myth or influence on 'scientific understanding ' . 3 hours ago, dwai said: which messed up study of the chronology of civilizations and still passes off as 'gospel truth' today in the academic circles. Thats right ..... evolutionists, geologists and the like still affirm that the world began in 5.500 bc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 27, 2020 1 hour ago, Nungali said: Whereas in India , no such thing ever happened and still today , Indian religious scripture has no effect on their understanding of history and they do not have unscientific insertion of religious scriptural creation myth or influence on 'scientific understanding ' . Actually Indian history is very well documented -- only not in the way westerners can recognize. Did you actually even watch the video? 1 hour ago, Nungali said: Thats right ..... evolutionists, geologists and the like still affirm that the world began in 5.500 bc. The problem is geologists and evolutionists don't seem to be getting across to historians who wrote about ancient India. Can you dispute the methodology or claims made in the video? That's what happens when people don't have substantive arguments to counter a position -- they'll resort to polemics, sort of like what you're doing. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 27, 2020 6 hours ago, alchemystical said: Preface: No limits on this discussion, all viewpoints welcome, no dogma is subscribed to by me. Can't say I know much about the Vedic culture as I'm just learning but a quick glance through the years and some points stand out which I'd like to discuss with the more knowledgeable members on board: How in the heck did people who apparently had a very rudimentary culture in terms of buildings etc.. have things that sound like war planes/some kind of flight craft equipped with weapons that seem either nuclear or laser based. Its all very Star Wars and the Vader/Veda thing doesn't escape me either. First, are you SURE they did have those things ? Its hard to answer a very general claim taken off various internet sources and woo woo , if that is where you got the info . For example , where you talking about 'Vimana' ? if so that isnt a tradition source of Vedic knowledge at all ; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaimānika_Shāstra Laser based weapons ? Where did you get THAT from ? Vader / Veda ... I am assuming that is humour ? 6 hours ago, alchemystical said: From what I've read they were powered by a different, non electrical power source that may have used mercury and a totally different view of physics/knowledge of the basis of reality. And where did you read that ? 6 hours ago, alchemystical said: Obviously this has been seized upon by ancient alien people and totally mangled on top of the already shaky translations of Sanskrit (which is apparently supposed to be one of the most complex, in depth languages ever as its packed with nuance and subtlety which evades translation). Yes, obviously . 6 hours ago, alchemystical said: Its quite perplexing for many that our ancestors in the past were more advanced than us in the present but things like the Pyramids in Egypt prove that man of the past was far more resourceful than we are now. Great word choice ; ' resourceful ' , I agree with this . I also think they where more advanced in things that really matter to us , not BS things like advanced technology, smart phones, gaming ...... 6 hours ago, alchemystical said: Plus there is the whole "Where did the Vedics come from angle" which I'd welcome some more insight on. From the melting pot of peoples and culture in South Central Asia ; people from the north (Steppe ) , probably Adronovans , kept coming down into the BMAC area stretching from west Kopet Dag foothills, SE through the river delta desert oasis network (Margiana ) over to north of Hindu Kush , Upper Oxus river and western Pamir Mts . They blended with the BMAC people, in a good blend , creating good society and advanced art and production ( The 'Varuna period' - my tag ) . This blend of 'proto Indo Iranians ' hit its height at the peak of BMAC culture. Then , or as it declined, more war like war lord invading people came from the north ( the 'Indra Mob' - also my tag ) , things where not as peaceful then, leading to a split , some went into NW India and composed the Vedas there from the earlier oral tradition with some newer stuff added and some stayed in the area, forming Yaz culture , the origins of 'Pishdadian Era ' /mythology and the source of the Avestan tradition , which eventually became Zoroastrianism and eventually migrated west, and then they composed Avesta from a similar earlier oral tradition, also adding stuff , later than the Vedas where composed ) . 6 hours ago, alchemystical said: One thing I do firmly believe is that we're taught a load of mistruths and flat out lies when it comes to this culture and its significance for whatever reason but I do find it very fascinating. Loads of things I wonder including: What were their origins? Where did they come from? see above 6 hours ago, alchemystical said: Whats the deal with the way their gods/goddesses look? They became a blend of imports and indigenous gods of India . Do you think they look strange ? I dont, not compared to other ancient Gods ! Like Egyptian, Aboriginal, South American . 6 hours ago, alchemystical said: Was their culture local or global like Christianity is now? Different extent through different time periods . Which time period do you mean ? Also Indian cultures before Vedic people appeared where extensive and far reaching trade and influence . BMAC people exported lapis lazuli ( from today's Afghanistan) and it ended up all the way over in ancient Egypt , even in early dynasties . Some made it to the NW coast of Africa . Also 'Vedic' peoples ancestors penetrated in to (today's ) western China . 6 hours ago, alchemystical said: How did they amass such insight without technology? Many indigenous have great 'insight' without hardly any technology at all . I think your question depends on a 'conditioned outlook' - people are smart and insightful, reliance on technology seems to impact on that and reduce it and smartness becomes very specialised and not general 6 hours ago, alchemystical said: Why did they live such seemingly basic lives? Which people and when ? What do you mean by 'basic lives' ? 6 hours ago, alchemystical said: I could continue on... Your insight is welcomed. It helps if you can get more specific . vague and general questions cant often be answered . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 27, 2020 2 minutes ago, dwai said: Actually Indian history is very well documented -- only not in the way westerners can recognize. Did you actually even watch the video? HA! Hands up how many here watched a one and a half hour video . 2 minutes ago, dwai said: The problem is geologists and evolutionists don't seem to be getting across to historians who wrote about ancient India. Can you dispute the methodology or claims made in the video? That's what happens when people don't have substantive arguments to counter a position -- they'll resort to polemics, sort of like what you're doing. I dont respond to arguments that rely on watching hours long videos or evn 1/2 hour. I am more into talking to people and giving references and if a video is used , talk about a point and cite the time . otherwise its as silly as me saying ; 'Everything I said is affirmed in these three books, you go read them ; (UNESCO publication) https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000094466 https://www.amazon.com.au/Roots-Hinduism-Early-Aryans-Civilization/dp/0190226927 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780873655453 But this is 'stained ' by being academic relying on archaeology, linguistics, history and genetics , all combined together and is not some youtube nor the rantings of some guru . Check out the validity of the authors Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted January 27, 2020 23 minutes ago, Nungali said: HA! Hands up how many here watched a one and a half hour video . I dont respond to arguments that rely on watching hours long videos or evn 1/2 hour. I am more into talking to people and giving references and if a video is used , talk about a point and cite the time . otherwise its as silly as me saying ; 'Everything I said is affirmed in these three books, you go read them ; (UNESCO publication) https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000094466 https://www.amazon.com.au/Roots-Hinduism-Early-Aryans-Civilization/dp/0190226927 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780873655453 But this is 'stained ' by being academic relying on archaeology, linguistics, history and genetics , all combined together and is not some youtube nor the rantings of some guru . Check out the validity of the authors I have spent many years studying this subject. it is clear that you are incapable of (and unwilling to) rebut the scientific evidence provided in the video. If your mind is so closed, what is the point of posting polemics? I’m not interested in wasting my time on such activities — and you go on my ignore list. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 27, 2020 Good . But that is not going to stop me answering others questions from a more reasonable perspective . How about YOU address the ancient Indian flying machine and lasers then ..... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ? No response to THAT I see . (and I am the one with the 'closed mind' am I ? ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 27, 2020 polemic /pəˈlɛmɪk/ Learn to pronounce noun plural noun: polemics a strong verbal or written attack on someone or something. the practice of engaging in controversial debate or dispute. Yes, I will write ' an attack ' on 'Indian flying machines' and I will support it with thngs like the information behind it, like the ref. I posted above ... for others education on the subject . The subject matter is controversial , so anyone engaging in the debate is ' engaging in controversial debate' and I will always dispute woo-woo where I see it . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rideforever Posted January 28, 2020 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimana Vimana flying machines are devices created by demi-Gods who have powers of the scale of the universe. This is not something to be compared with things the human monkeys have been able to create, like the flushing toilet. Indian spirituality was much greater in the past, the knowledge of chakras is very poorly understood and treated like a game these days, only very few teachers know more than that. Some Indian teachers like Prabhupada described this era as Kali Yuga, so low that one much find a simple and direct means to escape as no higher kind of path can work in an era as unintelligent as this one. In my opinion external technology is a sign of degeneration. A strong society is one with no external technology because the population itself is of very high quality and need no crutches to exist. A strong society or a good society is one in which the people themselves have individual quality which is created through great effort. There are millionaires and dollars flowing in to India and China today, arrogance and materialism and egoism flows. Great India people want stories of great deeds of the past; look at Kashmir today. I fear that whatever was left of Vedic culture will be obliterated. How many real yogis are left today? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alchemystical Posted January 28, 2020 @Nungali In the Ramayana it is said: "The Pushpaka Vimana that resembles the Sun and belongs to my brother was brought by the powerful Ravana; that aerial and excellent Vimana going everywhere at will ... that chariot resembling a bright cloud in the sky ... and the King [Rama] got in, and the excellent chariot at the command of the Raghira, rose up into the higher atmosphere.'" What does that sound like to you? The laser like weapon is the Brahmastra from the Mahabharata: “Dense arrows of flame, like a great shower, issued forth upon creation, encompassing the enemy… A thick gloom swiftly settled upon the Pandava hosts. All points of the compass were lost in darkness. Fierce wind began to blow upward, showering dust and gravel. Birds croaked madly… the very elements seemed disturbed. The earth shook, scorched by the terrible violent heat of this weapon. Elephants burst into flame and ran to and fro in a frenzy… over a vast area, other animals crumpled to the ground and died. From all points of the compass the arrows of flame rained continuously and fiercely." Both sound ridiculously out of place for the era. Awaiting your insight. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) Thanks for your response and citations. Let's look at your OP and the relevant question here ; " How in the heck did people who apparently had a very rudimentary culture in terms of buildings etc.. have things that sound like war planes/some kind of flight craft ... 2 hours ago, alchemystical said: @Nungali In the Ramayana it is said: "The Pushpaka Vimana that resembles the Sun and belongs to my brother was brought by the powerful Ravana; that aerial and excellent Vimana going everywhere at will ... that chariot resembling a bright cloud in the sky ... and the King [Rama] got in, and the excellent chariot at the command of the Raghira, rose up into the higher atmosphere.'" What does that sound like to you? For a start , I would like to see the citation from Ramayana so I dont have to read the whole epic, do you have a page or passage numbers . I am only familiar with the one below from Rig Veda * , but not this one above . Then I would check the translation that appears above and its source. I am also wondering about the missing bits ( the bits where it shows ...... ) and whether you edited it or someone else or what . * The Rig Veda (1.164.47-48) says: "Kṛṣṇaṃ niyânaṃ hárayaḥ suparṇâ, Apó vásānā dívam út patanti tá âvavṛtran sádanād ṛtásyâd, Id ghṛténa pṛthivî vy ùdyate Dvâdaśa pradháyaś cakrám ékaṃ, Trîṇi nábhyāni ká u tác ciketa Tásmin sākáṃ triśatâ ná śaṅkávo 'Rpitâḥ ṣaṣṭír ná calācalâsaḥ meaning, "Dark the descent. The birds are golden-coloured; up to heaven they fly, robed in the waters. They again descend from the seat of Order, and all the earth is moistened with their heaviness. Twelve are the fellies, and the wheel is single; three are the naves. What man hath understood it? Therein are set together 360 spokes, which in no way can be loosened." But going on what is above, to me, it doesnt wound like 'war planes . No weapons described . Putting the next citation next to it does make it sound more like one . But are they not two different sources colluded together to give an impression that the 'plane' contains the weapon ? Anyway , moving on, I dont see much unusual in this passage that is not in other mythologies ; Helios and the Sun chariot for example (remember these are IE people {and so where Greek ancestors} - they virtually invented the chariot ) here he is 'pulling the Sun' In the old Egyptian beliefs (who got chariots much later - they where invaded by them ) this journey was represented by the then pop mode of transport - a boat on the NIle What I do find interesting , and outside of this general mythology that some cultures share, is the variation of; the king got in it and went up . Thats unusual ! Or I might be wrong about that , maybe some others have 'gone for a ride' ? " at the command of the Raghira " - what is 'Raghira' ? All I got was ' Rajghira' (again, sic ? in citation ) and this interesting entry; "Amaranth or rajgira means “immortal” or “everlasting” in Greek because it contains more than three times the average amount of calcium and is also high in iron, magnesium, phosphorus, potassium and it is the only grain which contains Vitamin C " So I am guessing he is 'an immortal' . I havent mentioned this as its so obvious ( I thought) , but maybe not . This is myth , a religious story from scripture ... it might not be fact Quote The laser like weapon is the Brahmastra from the Mahabharata: “Dense arrows of flame, like a great shower, issued forth upon creation, encompassing the enemy… A thick gloom swiftly settled upon the Pandava hosts. All points of the compass were lost in darkness. Fierce wind began to blow upward, showering dust and gravel. Birds croaked madly… the very elements seemed disturbed. The earth shook, scorched by the terrible violent heat of this weapon. Elephants burst into flame and ran to and fro in a frenzy… over a vast area, other animals crumpled to the ground and died. From all points of the compass the arrows of flame rained continuously and fiercely." Both sound ridiculously out of place for the era. Awaiting your insight. Yes, both " DO sound ridiculously out of place for the era" ... so what does that indicate to you . ? A literal unusual out of place and time magical occurance . or myth and scriptural hype ? Multiple firings of arrows of flames dont seem unusual to me . The next part does seem unusual 'elephants bursting into flame' and so on . I think we have two choices here ; the first is that it is exaggeration about a war and one sides 'terrible weapons' ( think of things like Thor's hammer, Zeuss thunderbolt even a special boomerang that can go through the enemy on its own snaking path , cutting them all in two, in one throw ! But even before Pushpak Vimana, there is mention of flying chariots being used by various other gods: Surya, the Sun God, had his chariot, with Aruna as the charioteer; Indra, the wind god, had his own flying-cum-wheeled chariot. .... heroes can do stuff like that and victors and their stories of magnificent weapons abound in mythology . This is my view . The other view is that it is literal and terms like 'arrows of flame' where used as they didnt have other words to describe a new and unusual sight . I still want to check the translations though , eg terms like 'on all points of the compass ' ... the word 'compass' was actually used back then ???? The reason I am on about translation is, in dealings with Indians and 'experts' in Sanskrit ( which I am NOT in any way ) even amongst themselves they are n dispute and interpretations can differ wildly ; look at this from the wiki article : ( from Rig Veda 164 : 47 - 48 ) 47. kṛṣṇáṃ niyânaṃ hárayaḥ suparṇâ / apó vásānā dívam út patanti tá âvavṛtran sádanād ṛtásyâd / íd ghṛténa pṛthivî vy ùdyate 48. dvâdaśa pradháyaś cakrám ékaṃ / trîṇi nábhyāni ká u tác ciketa tásmin sākáṃ triśatâ ná śaṅkávo / 'rpitâḥ ṣaṣṭír ná calācalâsaḥ "Dark the descent: the birds are golden-coloured; up to the heaven they fly robed in the waters. Again descend they from the seat of Order, and all the earth is moistened with their fatness." "Twelve are the fellies, and the wheel is single; three are the naves. What man hath understood it? Therein are set together spokes three hundred and sixty, which in nowise can be loosened." ("trans." Griffith) Dayananda Saraswati interpreted these verses to mean: "jumping into space speedily with a craft using fire and water ... containing twelve stamghas (pillars), one wheel, three machines, 300 pivots, and 60 instruments. 'Imaginative ' More likely , Wiki ; " although more likely the 12 fellies are the 12 months in a year, and the 360 spokes are the days (actually 365) in a year. " Is that the only mention you know of ? Its fairly scant. What I was referring to earlier was this ( which is where the modern day woo woo and 'ancient Indian 'UFO tech came from ) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaimānika_Shāstra " It makes the claim that the vimānas mentioned in ancient Sanskrit epics were advanced aerodynamic flying vehicles. " Okay, if they where NOT, what where they ? They where mythological unaerodynamic flying vehicles . I mean, people LUV to imagine stuff like that as real ; Anyway, thats enough from me . Lets hear from an Indian ; " Behind all mythologies, there is usually some history. So, most probably, there was a great king called Rama in the ancient times, who did good deeds. " It may be mentioned that in the Sanskrit Ramayana of Valmiki, Rama was a great king, but not a god. He became a god later; in Tulsidas' Ramcharitmanas. So, Rama evolved from a man to a god in the course of two or three thousand years. Pushpak Viman is just a poet's imagination. Please remember that the Ramayana is a mahakavya (epic poem). A poet has, what is called, poetic licence. In other words, he can exaggerate. So, please don't take things like Pushpak Viman literally — there were no aeroplanes in ancient India. The first aircraft was invented by the Wright Brothers in America in 1903. We make ourselves a laughing stock before the whole world by claiming that in ancient India, there were aeroplanes, atom bombs and guided missiles. " We must understand what the Ramayana and the Mahabharata are. They are epic poems and as I mentioned earlier, a poet has the right to exaggerate as he has ‘poetic licence’. So, one must not take all things literally. Many things are imaginative. " Similarly, the claim that there were guided missiles and atom bombs in the ancient India (because there is a mention of brahmastra, agnyastra, narayanastra, etc., in the Mahabharata and the Ramayana) is also nonsense. These were only poetic imaginations. " Such people who talk such nonsense do not know the really great scientific discoveries of our ancestors, for example, the decimal system in mathematics, plastic surgery in medicine, etc. I have mentioned some of them in my articles, while we had undoubtedly made great achievements in science in the past, by mixing up what was true with what was untrue, we dilute the former. It is true that we were ahead of the whole world in science in ancient India. https://www.dailyo.in/voices/did-rama-pushpak-viman-head-transplantation-even-exist-markanday-katju-answers/story/1/26866.html Lets not taint a great people and a great civilisation who did discover great scientific things and help advance the world . And also lets not disgrace a great scriptural tradition like the Vedas through inappropriate understandings . Otherwise we are still looking for the magical sound weapon trumpets that collapsed the walls of Jericho or the magic boomerang that cuts a group of men in half with one throw . Edited January 28, 2020 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
