Purpose of QiGong

[freeform]

20 hours ago, Piyadasi said:

 

How about Baguazhang? I've heard it's supposed to be 'even more spiritual' than Taiji. I've heard the opposite about Xin(g?) Yi. Is there any validity to that? Or are they just different?

 

Bagua has a neigong element to it - so it will open up certain 'more spiritual' channels that are difficult to open otherwise. But again it isn't in itself a spiritual practice. Opening the capacity for spiritual development isn't in itself spiritual. I think that's important to remember. You can have great capacity for spiritual growth - but not achieve any spiritual growth at all.

 

Each practice has its own benefits and downsides. Each one develops the body and mind in a different 'shape'. Often they are trained somewhat together. But that's tricky when you have to work

 

 

[Spotless]

On 2/2/2020 at 2:52 AM, freeform said:

Simply untrue - completely naive

 

It is surprising how little is known here regarding Qi Kung - next to nothing.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Spotless

[senseless virtue]

10 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Simply untrue - completely naive

 

It is surprising how little is known here regarding Qi Kung - next to nothing.

Excuse me Sir.

 

Are you perhaps attempting some self-identifying meta narration in which you directly mirror and expose your own understanding?

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Spotless said:

Simply untrue - completely naive

 

It is surprising how little is known here regarding Qi Kung - next to nothing.

Discussion is a lot more interesting when you make a point along with your disagreement.

[Spotless]

On 2/2/2020 at 2:52 AM, freeform said:

Taiji is almost infinitely deep in terms of practice - you can practice for 60+ years and still have depth to explore. Qigong generally has an end point in terms of depth of exploration. At a certain stage you will have ‘accomplished’ qigong and then it’s just a matter of upkeep.

This is so naive and shallow it is hard to consider a disagreement  - consider if I were to say the complete opposite ( which I am not).

 

How might you respond to someone saying:

 

Qi Kung is almost infinitely deep in terms of practice - you can practice for 60+ years and still have depth to explore. Taiji generally has an end point in terms of depth of exploration. At a certain stage you will have ‘accomplished’ Taiji and then it’s just a matter of upkeep

 

When you know next to nothing of Qi Kung except perhaps some martial play with it - you might want to consider your vast generalization and near utter dismissal of it.

 

Measure head frequently - carry salt

 

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Spotless

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Spotless said:

This is so naive and shallow it is hard to consider a disagreement  - consider if I were to say the complete opposite ( which I am not).

 

How might you respond to someone saying:

 

Qi Kung is almost infinitely deep in terms of practice - you can practice for 60+ years

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have a different definition of Qigong - but as far as I’m concerned - if you’re still attempting to open your channels and govern your Qi after 60 years then something’s gone wrong in your training.

 

1 hour ago, Spotless said:

When you know next to nothing of Qi Kung except perhaps some martial play with it - you might want to consider your vast generalization and near utter dismissal of it.

Bit dramatic 

 

You never struck me as the emotionally sensitive type before. I didn’t intend to offend you.

 

‘Utter dismissal’?

 

Where did I utterly dismiss anything? 
 

What I said is that there is an end point to Qi Gong - once you’ve mastered Qi in your body, you’ve mastered it.
 

That’s still a pretty difficult task and the vast majority of Qi Gong practitioners aren’t anywhere near mastery. But if you have the right teacher and the right methods and you put in several hours of daily practice then you should have mastered qigong in 15 to 20 years max. Yes you can learn other skills like fa Qi - but your skill will be limited if you don’t move onto Neigong and Neidan.

Edited February 3, 2020 by freeform

[Creation]

38 minutes ago, freeform said:

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you have a different definition of Qigong - but as far as I’m concerned - if you’re still attempting to open your channels and govern your Qi after 60 years then something’s gone wrong in your training.

 

38 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yes you can learn other skills like fa Qi - but your skill will be limited if you don’t move onto Neigong and Neidan.

In the interest of defining terms, is what you call accomplishing the goal of qigong the same as what Damo Mitchell calls "building the qigong body"?  And this is the end of the process of muscle-tendon changing?  If so, where does marrow-brain washing fit into your system?  Does that fall under the rubric of what you call neidan? 

 

And when you say open your channels, does that mean just the acquired meridians, or congenital also, in particular, what about the central channel?

 

[liminal_luke]

I kinda think that all these movement and meditation practices have infinite depth, because it´s not just what you do -- it´s the awareness with which you do it.  In other words, the point is not simply to move in such-and-such a way.  The point is to connect the mind with the movement of the body.  It´s not so different from meditations on the movement of the breath.  Breathing isn´t hard (for most).  Rock steady focus on the breath is another matter.  

 

Isn´t it true that increasing unity of body and mind facilitates ever increasing energetic development?

[Spotless]

Too Freeform

 

“What I said is that there is an end point to Qi Gong - once you’ve mastered Qi in your body, you’ve mastered it.”

 

This is an absurd statement - 

 

 

One way of looking at this is if you come to the conclusion that you did then your understanding and accomplishment in Taiji has to be quite limited and your understanding of Qi Gong almost none at all. Generally the case for most in either.

That is not to say you have not achieved a great deal but in spiritual practice it is often not what you have “achieved” but rather what you have unobstructed.

 

It appears you have no idea regarding what Spiritual Qi Kung is and not a whiff of how complete it is - your points so far are entirely from a low practice perspective and obviously no experiential depth.

 

The great news is that there is a great deal you have yet to grow into in these incredible practices.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Spotless

[Cleansox]

6 hours ago, freeform said:

 definition of Qigong - but as far as I’m concerned - if you’re still attempting to open your channels and govern your Qi after 60 years then something’s gone wrong in your training.

Just a question to understand your point: Was it your point to differentiate qigong from nei gong, nei dan, shen gong? 

 

If so, are there many styles out there that has a solid glass ceiling instead of progressing? 

 

 

[Piyadasi]

12 hours ago, Spotless said:

The great news is that there is a great deal you have yet to grow into in these incredible practices.

 

Why don't you enlighten us a bit more? Or point us in the right direction for further information?

 

So far you've only said how unbelievably wrong and misinformed freeform is, but not the why or the how or what the alternative perspective is.

 

What is "Spiritual Qi Kung"?

Edited February 4, 2020 by Piyadasi

[freeform]

8 hours ago, Spotless said:

Too Freeform

 

8 hours ago, Spotless said:

This is an absurd statement - 

 

8 hours ago, Spotless said:

your understanding and accomplishment in Taiji has to be quite limited and your understanding of Qi Gong almost none at all.

 

8 hours ago, Spotless said:

you have no idea regarding what Spiritual Qi Kung is

 

8 hours ago, Spotless said:

your points so far are entirely from a low practice perspective and obviously no experiential depth

 

8 hours ago, Spotless said:

The great news is that there is a great deal you have yet to grow

 

 

You seem very concerned about me! How sweet.

 

I tried - but clearly you have nothing to offer the discussion

 

 

[freeform]

10 hours ago, Creation said:

 

In the interest of defining terms, is what you call accomplishing the goal of qigong the same as what Damo Mitchell calls "building the qigong body"?  And this is the end of the process of muscle-tendon changing?  If so, where does marrow-brain washing fit into your system?  Does that fall under the rubric of what you call neidan? 

 

And when you say open your channels, does that mean just the acquired meridians, or congenital also, in particular, what about the central channel?

 

 

aaah - a proper discussion on a Daoist discussion board - how novel

 

Great questions.

 

Daoist names for things are very important.

 

So for example when you say "the goal of qigong"... 'Qi Gong' is the goal - we think of qigong as the practice, but it's actually describing the goal - practice is what achieves this goal. Same with Taiji, Neidan, Neigong, Shengong - even Dantien. When you look at Daoist terms through this lens (that the name of a thing is the 'final destination') - then some interesting insights start to come to light.

 

Building the qigong body is certainly a big part of the goal of Qigong - but only a part.

 

I think of it like this...

 

Ever seen a world-class pianist practice?

 

I've had the pleasure to.

 

And it's quite incredible - the subtleties they'll be practising are almost imperceptible to most people - they'll be working on like the 'pregnant pause' between notes... or like injecting a certain complex mix of feelings into a single chord.

 

But that's because they have mastery of playing the piano. They can, for example, have an in-depth conversation while playing the most amazing piece of music - their fingers a blur across the piano keys.

 

There is no effort in their playing. You could say "play the same thing but with a tinge of nostalgic sadness" and they do it - without thinking or planning or even any willful control - it's just there for them. It's like they're 100% fluent in communicating through the piano. This is mastery - Piano Gong

 

To achieve piano gong takes many years of hard, laborious work... The pianist I had the pleasure of meeting would practice (or actually be forced by his parents to practice!) for 6 hours a day from the age of 7 - whilst also going to school... when he finished with school, he'd practice 8 to 10 hours a day - every single day.

 

His hands, fingertips, wrists and forearms had a very interesting shape and quality. Because I have a (slightly weird) fascination with how the body changes with mastery of a skill, I asked if I could palpate his arms and feel the jing jin lines running to his fingers. Interestingly they were somewhat similar to a highly skilled internal arts practitioner with a 'steel wrapped in cotton' quality - although the lines were quite different. Unfortunately, the rest of his body is completely unconnected - but we're working on connecting his fingertips into his full structure - soon he'll be playing the piano with his dantien not his fingers.

 

The quality in his hands is equivalent to the quality of the qigong body. In that you need to build the physical foundations - and it takes time, is hard work and quite uncomfortable. But mastery isn't just the body! In the case of the pianist, he must understand music, his mind must become fluent in musical theory and practice - the ability to hear and perceive subtlety. The ability to hear and produce the qualities of emotion... starting with the big crude emotions - anger, sadness etc... then moving onto very nuanced, emotions - the bittersweet feeling of meeting an old girlfriend after many years - one who you parted with on good terms etc...

 

This is the development of Gong. And Qi Gong is similar.

 

But there is an endpoint in development if your aim is spiritual cultivation!

 

Once you can 'effortlessly play the piano whilst having an in-depth discussion on the side' - you've developed enough Gong to continue down the path.

 

9 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

The point is to connect the mind with the movement of the body.  It´s not so different from meditations on the movement of the breath.  Breathing isn´t hard (for most).  Rock steady focus on the breath is another matter.  

 

The point is - that even though it's extremely difficult,  for those that dedicate much of their life to it, it should be possible to move beyond watching the breath or connecting mind and body - in a reasonably short period (certainly under 20 years)... If you're still absorbing into the breath 60 years into dedicated practice then something has gone wrong - or you've not had correct teachings - or you've not had a good teacher etc. Once you've reached Samadhi, there is no point concentrating on the breath anymore - you've outgrown that practice!

 

It's the same with Qi Gong... once you've built the YJJ principles into your body, opened and cleared the major channels, built some Qi and have the quality of fluency and effortlessness in governing your Qi, you must move on - or you'll be stuck spinning your wheels - if spiritual cultivation is your aim!

 

So onto the specifics of your questions, Creation.

 

With the teachers I've trained under -

 

Qi gong is the beginning - building the body, clearing major pathogens, building a little qi, developing fluency in governing qi etc... Qi gong is a kind of outside-in practice - you move your outer body to affect your 'internal body'. Yes, it opens the major channels of the body - and usually the Du.

 

Neigong is the next step - you develop your internal body further. Neigong is internal mastery - you use the skill you've developed with qigong to now work inside-out. You might be completely static, but your internal body is fully alive, moving and transforming you. You start to work with congenital aspects. You start to open the deeper congenital channels - including the central channel. Some people call this 'spiritual qigong' - I assume this is what Pointless was referring to.

 

However, this level of practice does not develop your spirit - your Yuan Shen (which is what spiritual cultivation is)... It does develop your capacity to develop spiritually - but it doesn't develop the spirit - might seem pedantic, but it's very important to understand the difference.

 

Marrow washing straddles Neigong and meditative practice.

 

Neigong is when your channels become like thick conduits, able to transmit, receive and generate Qi beyond the 'ordinary' amount. Neigong is where your qigong body becomes stronger, even more 'physical' - this is where the steel wrapped in cotton starts to develop (and if you palpate someone's body as they're practising neigong, you can feel these 'steel cables' moving and sliding beneath the soft muscles) This is when your Dantien starts to form physically.

 

Neidan - is the step after that. Here you're dealing with congenital jing, internal transformations etc. Where before you worked to clear energetic pathogens from your channels, now you're clearing the root causes for those pathogens - causes that are beyond your current lifetime etc. And of course, as you progress with Neidan and meditative practice you start to work on the Yuan Shen level - and hey presto - you're doing spiritual cultivation! Anything before is only building the foundations to work on that level.

 

It's important to understand the terms and the progression of development of your teacher and your lineage - often terms will be different. Often there will be overlap between qigong and neigong etc. Terms are important - they're not metaphorical, in the sense that they always have very concrete meanings in their own contexts.

 

Yes, you'll have plenty of spiritual experiences before beginning cultivation on the Yuan Shen level - but this is not 'cultivation'. Again - might seem pedantic - but it's important to be clear about the difference.

 

 

 

 

 

 

3

5 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Just a question to understand your point: Was it your point to differentiate qigong from nei gong, nei dan, shen gong?

 

Yes - sort of.

 

5 hours ago, Cleansox said:

If so, are there many styles out there that has a solid glass ceiling instead of progressing?

 

Yeah - definitely. Depends where you're headed... (authentic) Qi gong builds robust health, emotional resilience, vitality, a sense of inner ease and comfort, mental focus etc... For most people that's more than enough! But that does not transform the very core of your being!

 

Neigong might help you achieve superhuman levels of vitality, intuition, 'abilities' a connection to different spiritual aspects of reality... but this still isn't cultivating the very core of your pre-heaven 'Self'.

 

Each practice has its place... you need emotional resilience, vitality and inner comfort... you'll need a large 'amount' of qi and a spiritual connection to progress to cultivating spirit... etc.

 

You can even see it in terms of body posture... first there is a lot of moving, sweating, shaking - then more gracefulness in movement - then more standing, mudras, maybe mantras - then more sitting, usually some more sweating, inner movement - then quiet sitting, stillness, no effort - then the same for days on end without breaks

 

Of course, you can keep doing qigong to keep the body and mind sharp, supple and aligned - but its capacity for further development has reached the glass ceiling - usually at the intermediate stage of practice.

[Rara]

2 hours ago, Piyadasi said:

Spiritual Qi Kung

 

Subjective, is what it is.

[rideforever]

.

Edited February 4, 2020 by rideforever

[Chainer]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Qi gong is the beginning - building the body, clearing major pathogens, building a little qi, developing fluency in governing qi etc... Qi gong is a kind of outside-in practice - you move your outer body to affect your 'internal body'. Yes, it opens the major channels of the body - and usually the Du.

 

Neigong is the next step - you develop your internal body further. Neigong is internal mastery - you use the skill you've developed with qigong to now work inside-out. You might be completely static, but your internal body is fully alive, moving and transforming you. You start to work with congenital aspects. You start to open the deeper congenital channels - including the central channel. Some people call this 'spiritual qigong' - I assume this is what Pointless was referring to.

 

However, this level of practice does not develop your spirit - your Yuan Shen (which is what spiritual cultivation is)... It does develop your capacity to develop spiritually - but it doesn't develop the spirit - might seem pedantic, but it's very important to understand the difference.

 

Genuinely interesting post, my compliments  

 

Lots of questions for someone as well versed and articulate but I'll stick to my favourite one: 

 

In terms of the ultimate goal of spiritual development - 

 

Do you (or able Daoists of your kind), believe that you must destroy your ego totally in the spiritual sense, let's say to refine you PO Soul, your Yin Qi out of existence, in the 10 Ox herding, 'black to white stages' sense of it (ie Zen)? Or do you think that you retain your ego, you sense of self, with all your secondary consciousness (sorry for the Falun Gong ref but i make it for a reason) et al, and just progress in terms of spiritual power, with a more nebulous and dangerous belief that the journey itself simply 'improves' you, you even surpass 'morality', in the ancient Indian sense of it? 

 

No matter who you are and where you are from, I come to recognise over the years that this question splits almost everyone into 2 distinct camps, as most Daoists seem to believe they retain the sense of themselves even at the highest levels of practise and consequently don't really bother. While most highly spiritual people have zero interest in energy body work, and go straight after destroying themselves, even handing themselves over to a 'higher power' first chance they get, much as that can be just as dangerous. 

 

However with your Yuan Shen ref above as the ultimate goal I suspect, kinda hoping in fact, you are going to find a middle ground...  

[dwai]

6 hours ago, freeform said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You seem very concerned about me! How sweet.

 

I tried - but clearly you have nothing to offer the discussion

 

 

@freeform I think @Spotless is suggesting that there is no distinction between qigong and neigong in his mind (I could be wrong of course, but knowing him, I can warrant a guess).

 

Even in the style of internal training I've undergone -- the grandmaster, Waysun Liao doesn't distinguish between qigong and neigong. He calls it all Daogong. The practice is called "Temple style tai chi" but it incorporates practices I've encountered from Neidan, Neigong, Qigong, other Daoist meditations. I was told that this is the way he learnt from a wandering Daoist monk in Taiwan, and that is how he transmits the training to two of his long-term students, who in turn transmitted it to me (and my other Kungfu brothers/sisters).

 

 I think it really depends on the teachers -- especially those teachers who immigrated to the West in the 1960s and 1970s, taught in the old way -- they didnt' have a damo mitchell to translate and organize the knowledge for a western audience. 

 

The main thing is, the proof is in the eating of the proverbial pudding...has one's practice been able to help them develop equanimity? Cultivate stillness and being present? Psychic powers are a curious side-effect...not the main objective.

 

More important is -- What is the quality of their life? Are they mainly happy and at peace in their lives? How do they interact with their environment (and people therein)?

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by dwai

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Chainer said:

Lots of questions for someone as well versed and articulate but I'll stick to my favourite one:

 

Really good question... although you are asking someone whose "understanding of Qi Gong almost none at all."

 

So I do have something to share, but I need to make it clear - that I'm not anywhere near this level of practice! So what I have to share is based on my (most likely) faulty understanding - so needs to be taken with a big pinch of salt.

 

So regarding the dissolution of the ego.

 

It actually depends on the lineage, timing and the particular attainment you want to achieve.

 

What I mean is that (to simplify things) we can separate practitioners and lineages in primarily two camps - lay practitioners and renunciates.

 

Lay practitioners will, in general, live in society - but take retreats away from society regularly. Sometimes these retreats can last years.

 

Renunciates leave their social lives behind completely. They will either take on the vows of a monk or go live in a mountain hut in the wilderness for the rest of their life.

 

What confuses matters is that we read classical texts and instructions, and often we don't know the context of the text - sometimes the practices described are for lay practitioners in society sometimes for lay practitioners on retreat and sometimes for complete renunciates. Generally, the practices developed for renunciates are dangerous and completely incompatible with normal life!

 

For example, you'll have renunciates that go into a kind of 'suspended animation' state - although their biological processes are active, they're as good as dead - but during this stage, they're very vulnerable... usually, you'll have people to come look after your wellbeing - make sure there aren't any rats eating your toes or insects taking residence in your nostrils - that kind of thing

 

Similarly, dissolution of the ego is not a pretty sight - you're not able to function in a normal way - everything has to be taken care of for you. If you don't have these things in place then you'll not last long.

 

As far as I understand the renunciate path is the more direct, faster path. You just need to juggle your circumstances. You don't necessarily even have to transform your character - you just have to develop your Yuan Shen.

 

The path that interests me more is the path of the lay practitioner... complete ego dissolution is not part of that path - but transformation is! Meaning that instead of shedding your ego, you balance it and cultivate it in such a way that the virtues (De) spontaneously arise and permanently transform one's nature - from self-focused to 'saintly'.

 

However even lay practitioners go on retreats, and 'dissolve their ego' for periods of time to achieve certain necessary aims at certain stages.

Edited February 4, 2020 by freeform

[freeform]

 

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, dwai said:

@freeform I think @Spotless is suggesting that there is no distinction between qigong and neigong in his mind (I could be wrong of course, but knowing him, I can warrant a guess).

 

Already covered:

17 hours ago, freeform said:

I’ll give you [spotless] the benefit of the doubt and assume you have a different definition of Qigong

 

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, freeform said:

Neigong [...] Some people call this 'spiritual qigong' - I assume this is what Pointless was referring to.

 

That's the extent of courtesy I'm willing to extend to a rude, disrespectful goon such as him

 

 

25 minutes ago, dwai said:

Even in the style of internal training I've undergone -- the grandmaster, Waysun Liao doesn't distinguish between qigong and neigong.

 

Already covered:

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, freeform said:

It's important to understand the terms and the progression of development of your teacher and your lineage - often terms will be different. Often there will be overlap between qigong and neigong etc.

 

However - Neigong is still not spiritual cultivation (in the term I use - which is the cultivation of the Original Spirit) - this cannot be done by energetic mechanics - as I'm sure you already know

 

You shared your perspective and made yourself understood in a polite and respectful manner - which to me demonstrates a level of ease and equanimity... Your @Spotless friend, however, failed in that miserably.

 

[dwai]

@freeform, everyone has off days.

 

TBH i find the neidan/neigong distinctions very arbitrary. I prefer instead the Xing and Ming cultivation paradigms. Before we can start off on xing, Ming cultivation is needed. But eventually for spiritual growth, xing is what we need to work with. 
 

As you know, my xing cultivation is via the Indic tradition of Advaita Vedānta. Though I’ve also experienced and practiced tantric yoga as well. 

All these traditions more or less lose their distinctive flavors as we start working with/on consciousness. Consciousness is one without a second and everyone has it  (whether they know it or not). 

[Cleansox]

54 minutes ago, dwai said:

@freeform

TBH i find the neidan/neigong distinctions very arbitrary. I prefer instead the Xing and Ming cultivation paradigms. 

Isn't Ming a specific term? 

As in working with pre-heaven energy? 

Or am I too limited to my tradition with that distinction? 

[dwai]

23 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Isn't Ming a specific term? 

As in working with pre-heaven energy? 

Or am I too limited to my tradition with that distinction? 

maybe this will shed more light ---

 

 

[Cleansox]

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

maybe this will shed more light 

Yes. 

I would join M-80 in his definition, in my experience it is very different from qigong and basic ldt work. 

[ReturnDragon]

17 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

Xing and Ming cultivation is to cultivate the mind(性) and body(命). It was practiced by the ancient Chinese Taoist. It is what I am practicing now and tried to be a semi Taoist.

Edited February 4, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Yes. 

I would join M-80 in his definition, in my experience it is very different from qigong and basic ldt work. 

I'm not suggesting that it is

I think people tend to get caught up in labels so much that they miss the underlying essence of what is being practiced (or what is being alluded to).

 

My own teacher is the highest level adept that I've seen -- his practice of more than 50 years has established him in a state of such bliss, that his very presence will trigger that in others. He teaches the ming way for most people. A few of us have also been shown the xing way (mind you, the xing/ming labels, I'm ascribing -- he doesn't refer to the practices in this way). 

I did find that most 'daoist' people don't seem to know about xing work at all. Which makes me think that it is either a very closely guarded 'secret' in the modern daoist circles, or simply unknown to most. Yet, as is described and explained, the Xing cultivation is more in the realm of Zen Buddhism or other non-dual traditions such as Advaita Vedanta/Kashmir Shaivism.