Purpose of QiGong

[Cleansox]

Although my tradition is Chinese, I have had good use of Kashmir Shaivism in understanding that which unfolds after the Ming practice have started to kick in. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Cleansox

[dwai]

28 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Although my tradition is Chinese, I have had good use of Kashmir Shaivism in understanding that which unfolds after the Ming practice have started to kick in. 

Yes. Once the mind settles, a clarity arises -- and then the true (and hidden in plain sight) meanings of teachings start becoming apparent.

[ReturnDragon]

FYI The 6 minutes video demo was to show the result from the practice of Tai Chi or Qigong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBAHRqOtJDQ

The continuation of the movements for a long duration of time shows the endurance of the physical strength with no fatigue . The none hesitation of the moments shows the mind is fully in control.

As one can see that the body was from the result of xing and ming cultivation,  the body was in complete control of the mind. This is, only, a way of showing the result from the xing and ming cultivation. Of course, there are other ways to show it as well.

Edited February 4, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[Spotless]

Building the Qi Gong body - “Mastery” of Qi 😎

 

This approach to Qi Gong as a sort of push ups exercise is unfortunate. It is common in the martial arts and is low Qi Gong - barely scratching the surface even at its most WOW levels. 

 

Qi Gong is much like Yoga - as stated in my first or second post here - Real Yoga

 

To think it has an end point is to think of it like Western Yoga Calisthenics - not yoga and not Qi Gong - but it will make you feel great.

 

High Qi Gong is a way of life - it consists of sitting and standing meditation and the movements and postures - these are all adjuncts to inner work and transformation. To this the idea of “mastery of Qi” as and endpoint - this would put a wall to the inner door. - such ego does not go far in this practice. Qi Gong and Yoga are not a-z practices - they are ongoing life long - and go far into Awakening and beyond.

 

it is interesting to note that everyone has said their teacher does not distinguish the general term - yet Qi Gong was laid out by some as a very finite study however intricate it was basically limited to mechanical devise - this is a Qi Gong that is like Western Yoga - feel good nice stuff but lacking any understanding of the much larger teaching upon which it sits.

 

The subsequent posts have confirmed again and again low form “Qi Gong” and a very materialistic limited view and this necessarily effects the perception of the practice as a “move though” element in a list of fragmentary teachings.

 

It is certainly possible to accomplish extraordinary energetics - but in this vein they will only serve to further isolate you from inner work while seducing you that the opposite is true.

 

 

[Bindi]

it seems to depend on the aim. Endlessly unfolding energy development or developing the yangshen spirit. I’ve had this conversation with dwai before, and at least at that point he thought developing the yangshen spirit was dualistic, therefore a lesser goal than nondualiy which at that point was his ultimate goal. And I’ve never heard spotless talk about the yangshen spirit, only about ever greater unfolding magnetic energy. 
 

[Ad_B]

11 hours ago, freeform said:

 

"Cleansox said:

If so, are there many styles out there that has a solid glass ceiling instead of progressing?"

 

 

 

Yeah - definitely. Depends where you're headed... (authentic) Qi gong builds robust health, emotional resilience, vitality, a sense of inner ease and comfort, mental focus etc... For most people that's more than enough! But that does not transform the very core of your being

 

 

Thankyou for your very insightful and interesting posts on the topic and with reference to the bit quoted, its no small thing and quitean achievement for the ordinary person myself included.

 

Regarding that, I'd say I'd imposed my own glass-ceiling in having acheived those things somewhat but being happy enough to simply continue cultivating and practising the 'jī běn gōng' basic skills and fundamentals and getting them right.....nourishing them and true!  the very core of my being is not transformed except that it is intrinsically happier which is also a very big thing but isn't contentment a goal in itself?

 

Thanks for your insights.

[dwai]

50 minutes ago, Bindi said:

it seems to depend on the aim. Endlessly unfolding energy development or developing the yangshen spirit. I’ve had this conversation with dwai before, and at least at that point he thought developing the yangshen spirit was dualistic, therefore a lesser goal than nondualiy which at that point was his ultimate goal.

I still stand by that -- developing the immortal fetus is a great liberation if you see it from the perspective of what @Small Fur posted in 

 

It can also be a great prison if you're looking to be a  universe traversing 'literal immortal' who can do magical deeds of great power. All genuine spiritual traditions will take the student to a point where they will be given an option -- "Become a 'master' of the universe (or a spiritual overlord/protector of a particular world or realm) -- ie become a deity (in essence), or cut through the allure of such power-trappings and become forever free by realizing your True nature. 

 

Anyone who chooses to become that 'literal immortal' will come back to a karma-land to have to work through their karma, and eventually become free, however good that kind of 'immortality' might be -- see @silent thunder's beautiful post on it here -- 

 

Those who have seen this/been offered this will know. But then again there are those (like my Master) who keep choosing to come back again and again for the sake of the sentient beings who are stuck in samsāra, due to their compassion. These are called Bodhisatvas. 

[Bindi]

34 minutes ago, dwai said:

I still stand by that -- developing the immortal fetus is a great liberation if you see it from the perspective of what @Small Fur posted in 

 

It can also be a great prison if you're looking to be a  universe traversing 'literal immortal' who can do magical deeds of great power. All genuine spiritual traditions will take the student to a point where they will be given an option -- "Become a 'master' of the universe (or a spiritual overlord/protector of a particular world or realm) -- ie become a deity (in essence), or cut through the allure of such power-trappings and become forever free by realizing your True nature. 

 

Anyone who chooses to become that 'literal immortal' will come back to a karma-land to have to work through their karma, and eventually become free, however good that kind of 'immortality' might be -- see @silent thunder's beautiful post on it here -- 

 

Those who have seen this/been offered this will know. But then again there are those (like my Master) who keep choosing to come back again and again for the sake of the sentient beings who are stuck in samsāra, due to their compassion. These are called Bodhisatvas. 

As I understand it the yangshen connects to the Dao, and ultimately I am inclined to trust this source as my guide, every other thought or realisation is still a subjective belief, even an ‘aha’ moment, no matter how sensible or compelling it sounds. 

[freeform]

11 hours ago, Spotless said:

This approach to Qi Gong as a sort of push ups exercise

 

11 hours ago, Spotless said:

It is common in the martial arts and is low Qi Gong - barely scratching the surface

 

11 hours ago, Spotless said:

like Western Yoga Calisthenics

 

11 hours ago, Spotless said:

basically limited to mechanical devise

 

11 hours ago, Spotless said:

The subsequent posts have confirmed again and again low form “Qi Gong” and a very materialistic limited view

 

11 hours ago, Spotless said:

they will only serve to further isolate you from inner work

 

Oops! I just violated your copyright!!

 

 

 

As far as I can see you're just repeating the same pointless crap - just slightly more sober and a little less rude.

 

So congratulations! You've managed to tone down the rudeness! Your "High Qi Kung" is clearly doing you good

 

But all you've demonstrated is willful ignorance and an inability to form a coherent argument and make yourself understood...

 

Just as Pointless as before.

Edited February 5, 2020 by freeform

[freeform]

9 hours ago, Ad_B said:

its no small thing and quitean achievement for the ordinary person myself included.

 

I think it's a huge achievement.

 

In fact, I think the transformation of the very core of who you are is a foolhardy endeavour!

 

Many people think that spiritual transformation is all bliss and gratitude and coasting through life on a cloud of angels - but it's really not.

 

To develop Gong - to build this inner ease and comfort in your mind and body - to have this emotional resilience and wellbeing, no matter the circumstances - to have enough vitality so you can be patient, smart focused and relaxed even under pressure - all of this is a crowning achievement for any life. And no spiritual transformation is needed for that!

 

In this case, the glass ceiling is simply a nice skylight - keeping out the draft and lighting up your life

[freeform]

9 hours ago, dwai said:

It can also be a great prison if you're looking to be a  universe traversing 'literal immortal' who can do magical deeds of great power.

 

 

That's what you thought Daoist practices were all about?

 

 

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

Endlessly unfolding energy development or developing the yangshen spirit.

 

Yes exactly. And we may never know what "endlessly unfolding energy development" actually means - because Spotless doesn't seem capable of making himself understood. All I can figure from him is that it's just better than all the low-level westernised callisthenics the rest of us are talking about

[Cleansox]

Interesting. 

The shaolinmaster.org site seems to differ between qigong useful for martial arts and higher form and beyond form qigong, useful for spiritual practice. 

 

So the main argument is not whether there are methods where you can reach different goals, it is about nomenclature? 

 

FYI: In the tradition I follow, also Shaolin, when you are practicing for health it is qigong and when you push through the glass ceiling it is Shen Gong. 

 

Although in general, we only talk about the name of the methods. 

[Chainer]

17 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Really good question... although you are asking someone whose "understanding of Qi Gong almost none at all."

 

So I do have something to share, but I need to make it clear - that I'm not anywhere near this level of practice! So what I have to share is based on my (most likely) faulty understanding - so needs to be taken with a big pinch of salt.

 

Many thanks for your reply, that was kind of you. No need to run your self down, ever - you are a lot higher up the food chain then lots of folks on here, whether you know it or not. 

 

17 hours ago, freeform said:

As far as I understand the renunciate path is the more direct, faster path. You just need to juggle your circumstances. You don't necessarily even have to transform your character - you just have to develop your Yuan Shen.

 

The path that interests me more is the path of the lay practitioner... complete ego dissolution is not part of that path - but transformation is! Meaning that instead of shedding your ego, you balance it and cultivate it in such a way that the virtues (De) spontaneously arise and permanently transform one's nature - from self-focused to 'saintly'.

 

So its the 2nd one then.. the trip improves you a long the way, and you emerge a better, more virtuous form of yourself. You become Saintly..

 

I respect that, and wish you well - its nice to actually come across a Daoist who has thought it through even that far in this day and age, as most folks simply don't read far enough ahead to realise there is some big stuff they are playing with here. Most don't have a goal, they don't even know the choices available, let alone know that they actually NEED to make one, sooner rather than later. 

 

As you have responded, as a courtesy the comment I would add is that its a REALLY good idea too know what the choice you are making actually means, the result of putting your spiritual development on the 'long finger' of the Yuan Shen path, delivering decades into the future.... and whats going to happen in the meantime, when you start to make real progress, in the sense of your 'developed energy body vs the modern world'...

 

So.. let's say your animal passions have started to be transformed into their relevant virtues through some (very) high level of Daoism and no longer act as major vehicles for the dregs of your PO soul (whether inherited or self inflicted) to feck with you, attack you emotionally, take you over, lead you astray, make you sick.

 

You are no longer forgetful, your fridge blindness has gone to the point that you can visualise the location of everything you own, you know what every light switch in your house actually does intuitively. You have surpassed clumsiness to the point you can tap dance on a curtain pole whilst playing Candy Crush, and you move with a grace and power that generates millions of followers on your own, not for profit, Youtube channel. 

 

Important moments in your life are no longer interrupted by the urgent need to service bodily processes, deal with random accidents, equipment failures, or the tedious needs of others. Every con or betrayal you suffer, every miss-placed love interest, friendship or fake master that you give you hard earned coin to, every opportunist side hustle or rip off micro business you donate too is simply a magical lesson for your soul to learn a long the way, you are just working out your grand daddies karma, nasty old bastard that he was..   

 

You no longer crave attention or do anything to generate 'likes', you don't artificially induce pointless conflict with strangers in order to get a boost to your mood, you see through your own projections of guilt and innocence in others as little more than your own cute little hangups as a child, every living thing you engage with induces a warmth and compassion in your chest that makes it impossible to even dislike them let alone be harassed and punished by your own anger toward them.

 

And most importantly your sexual obsessions have gone, your fetiches now little more than a mild appreciation of the truly beautiful soul rather than the total fascination of the heat and sweep of the human form, and no longer have you any desire to compete, to possess, to dominate, to humiliate, to punish or make dependant, as that crap is now frankly just 'beneath' you.  

 

But it don't quite work out that way. 

 

Your PO soul is still sitting there, mad as hell, scheming away, dancing around in your dreams, whispering self destructive crap in your ear, which you never actually hear. Indeed your have suppressed it to the point you have no longer any fecking clue what its up to, and everything you do seems the most decent and reasonable thing in the world, a force for good... but it still don't work... 

 

In short, unless you are truly blessed ancestrally, you get to fight against yourself for the rest of your life, knowing the stronger your energy body gets, the stronger it gets... hence why folks tend to find real practise tends to make there life worse until they man-up and face the problem, cause it ain't going away by itself. Ever.    

 

If you are going to do it that way, then think about making friends with it, or at least putting 'some 'manners on' the bastard, restrict its food and playtime to an acceptable compromise. Works for some I know, much as you will need to turn to the ancient Indian stuff to see that written down with any clarity, in Zen they leave it simply as 'seeing into your own true nature'.... cause they don't like scaring people in Zen, at least not at the beginning.  

 

If you don't mind some well meant advice - find a spiritual practise that works for you NOW, something you can do in parallel with whatever flavour of energy work you practise. Don't have to be much, don't get the sense it will be hard for you, as long as you start now. 

 

Lastly, have to say, much as I respect the 'saintly' vibe, I'd never be willing to put up with the 'suffering' that has gone with it through the ages, at least more than I have too.

 

[dwai]

4 hours ago, freeform said:

 

 

That's what you thought Daoist practices were all about?

  not me..,but many do. You only have to know how to look for such worthies  

[freeform]

4 hours ago, Chainer said:

No need to run your self down

 

oh no it’s nothing like that - I’m just as up myself as anyone else!
 

It’s simply an acknowledgement of where my focus is at the moment. Many people talk about things they’ve no actual experience with - and I much rather be upfront about that.
 

4 hours ago, Chainer said:

So its the 2nd one then.. the trip improves you a long the way, and you emerge a better, more virtuous form of yourself. You become Saintly..

 

I respect that, and wish you well - its nice to actually come across a Daoist who has thought it through even that far in this day and age

 

I personally find that Daoist internal arts have by far the clearest, most direct route to accomplish this sort of transformation.

 

Most traditions try to get the Po aspects out of the way long enough for them to launch into the spiritual realms and get out of the earthly realm. The Daoist arts have a clear way of transforming the Po attachments and all the other aspects back to their congenital state... and their congenital state expresses itself as the 5 virtues.

 

There are lines within Daoism that also bypass this... many Buddhist lines bypass this... so do a lot of the paths from the Vedic line. This results in the sort spiritual cultivators that have no problem with not only unvirtuous  but highly unethical behaviour - the ‘Buddha Boy’ being a prime example, if reports are to be believed.

 

Often the lack of true transformation of Xing is masked by blissful, compassionate, loving states - which is rather confusing. Which is why a genuine teacher that has avoided these pitfalls is a must.
 

4 hours ago, Chainer said:

If you don't mind some well meant advice - find a spiritual practise that works for you NOW, something you can do in parallel with whatever flavour of energy work you practise.

 

Yes you’re right - and I do

 

I sit in stillness and enter samadhi type states for longer and longer periods. But life has a way of making that very difficult!

[freeform]

3 hours ago, GSmaster said:

I am really surprised spotless picks up on you

I don’t mind a bit of good humoured rudeness - as long as it’s coming from the right place and generates a good discussion.
 

But I simply don’t have time for reactive, self-intoxicated emotional bullshit - especially when it’s coming from a so-called spiritual cultivator. I’ll happily call that shit out whenever it’s directed at me

[freeform]

5 hours ago, Chainer said:

Lastly, have to say, much as I respect the 'saintly' vibe, I'd never be willing to put up with the 'suffering' that has gone with it through the ages, at least more than I have too.

It only looks like suffering to others

 

Or so I’ve been told!

[liminal_luke]

@freeform @Spotless

 

Both of you are clearly dedicated, accomplished spiritual practitioners.  That´s the way I see it anyway, even if you don´t think that way about each other.  I´d feel lucky to have either of you as a teacher.

 

I was going to say much more, the gist of which you´ll probably both intuit, so I guess I´ll stop.

 

LL

Edited February 5, 2020 by liminal_luke

[liminal_luke]

double post

Edited February 5, 2020 by liminal_luke

[Chainer]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

 

oh no it’s nothing like that - I’m just as up myself as anyone else!

 

 Yeah I know mate - little bit of British irony for you, no offence, besides little bit of self belief is no harm, keeps you on the path and folks kinda expect it, do it myself even..   

 

3 hours ago, freeform said:

Often the lack of true transformation of Xing is masked by blissful, compassionate, loving states - which is rather confusing. Which is why a genuine teacher that has avoided these pitfalls is a must.

 

Nice and very true, all devotional and religious states are to be surpassed, in Zen they call that the state of reverence, meant as an insult to beginners, one of the biggest traps there is. 

 

3 hours ago, freeform said:

I sit in stillness and enter samadhi type states for longer and longer periods. But life has a way of making that very difficult!

 

Yeah 'life' ain't going to care for you doing that, but thats as good a hint as any - whatever you hate, whatever you find hard, whatever is the most difficult to stick with is what you need to do the most. Just focusing on what you enjoy and/or good at leads fecking nowhere fast.. Trick is to do something similar all the time not just in your zazen, to learn to turn down/off you ego much as you can every day, then the fun will really start..  

 

Have a sense the 'secret of the golden flower' might work you, look it up if you don't know it already, its kinda 'Rinzai Zen 101 with benefits' but most get something out of it as the detailed explanations of what to do with your eyes and ears are legend...  

 

3 hours ago, freeform said:

It only looks like suffering to others

 

Or so I’ve been told!

 

Lol.. no, in the sense of my post - if you ain't suffering, you ain't doin right... Zen was established as the school of 'sudden enlightenment' for a reason  

 

Enjoyed the chat, thank you. 

 

[freeform]

11 hours ago, Chainer said:

Yeah 'life' ain't going to care for you doing that, but thats as good a hint as any - whatever you hate, whatever you find hard, whatever is the most difficult to stick with is what you need to do the most. Just focusing on what you enjoy and/or good at leads fecking nowhere fast.. Trick is to do something similar all the time not just in your zazen, to learn to turn down/off you ego much as you can every day, then the fun will really start..  

 

Yes - spot on!

 

11 hours ago, Chainer said:

Have a sense the 'secret of the golden flower' might work you, look it up if you don't know it already, its kinda 'Rinzai Zen 101 with benefits' but most get something out of it as the detailed explanations of what to do with your eyes and ears are legend...

Yeah I’m quite familiar with golden flower. It’s just not a part of what I’m working through at the moment. I have several teachers and lots of very specific practices I have to do and things I have to achieve - according to the specific path of transformation for the lineage I’m in.

 

11 hours ago, Chainer said:

 

Enjoyed the chat, thank you. 

Me too. Thank you 🙏🏼

[Yonkon]

Thank you all for contributing, this forum is truly something special.

I learned a lot but also i have thousand more questions as a result. 

 

A main theme that i picked up is that it is wise to choose a certain style/school and commit to it.

I feel overwhelmed with the diversity of styles but one thing seems to attract me the most:

 

"Zifa Gong", "Katsugen", "Spontaneous Qigong" - There are many names for it and this topic attracts me endlessly and i always come back to it. There are many names of this "automatic healing force" but sadly i can't find any in depth and high quality material about it. There are no courses in my area and i have no luck finding a book about this topic.

 

So if any of you can help me out i would be very grateful. I really want to explore this phenomena but i don't know where to start.

 

 

 

 

[Earl Grey]

Once again: @freeform demonstrates professional and completely accurate mastery through understanding, while Pointless utilizes the old technique of confusing people with jargon and self-aggrandizing language as he attempts to speak condescendingly with authority, but possesses no skill whatsoever.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Earl Grey

[ReturnDragon]

If one wants to know what is the purpose of Qi Gong,  should one narrow down what is the definition of Qi Gong first? FYI Tai Chi is a very good from of Qi Gong.

Someone had mentioned "Qi Gong body." It is equivalent to a "Tai Chi body," as my own definition, for a Tai Chi practitioner. Someone had  a good laugh at that when the first time was heard.

 

[freeform]

On 05/02/2020 at 11:57 AM, Cleansox said:

FYI: In the tradition I follow, also Shaolin, when you are practicing for health it is qigong and when you push through the glass ceiling it is Shen Gong.

Yup - exactly.

 

Although there is much more to Qi development than just health. But yes - when you then use the Qi for development of the spirit - it’s now Shengong (“spiritual qigong”)
 

In my opinion nomenclature is important - as important as knowing where you are on a map when travelling in a strange land.

 

Jing to Qi = Qigong 

 

Qi to Shen = Shengong

 

On 06/02/2020 at 9:42 AM, Yonkon said:

A main theme that i picked up is that it is wise to choose a certain style/school and commit to it.

I feel overwhelmed with the diversity of styles but one thing seems to attract me the most:

 

"Zifa Gong", "Katsugen", "Spontaneous Qigong"

The important thing is that Zifa Gong and all the various types of spontaneous movement styles are not a complete ‘path’ or even a complete style.
 

It’s Qi interacting with your nervous system - which helps to clear a lot of mental emotional and even physical baggage... but once that crap has been cleared you need to move on to something else, otherwise you’re wasting your time and possibly damaging your health.