Mo Pai Alternatives?

[ballzan]

So I was a student of Jim Mcmillan something like 12 years ago when I was around 16, at the time I took him at his word not having read The Magus of Java or heard anything conflicting. Now years later there are a lot of things that just seem off, level 1 just seems bare, and 2 goes against many Qi Gong and Nei Kung beliefs that proper breath is important. Also in The Magus of Java (which Kostas has admitted in an interview was embellished to make it a better read) they seem to disagree on things which shouldn't be the case for low level students. When speaking with Jim I remember asking if he could give any demonstrations and his words being "I don't have the Yin built up to do it without my master" he also mentioned that it takes many more years to accumulate equivalent Yin to post level 1 Yang collection. This doesn't make sense at all, Nei Kung is supposed to be more about Yin and Yang balance but yet seems that Mo Pai is still very Yang first and lacks proper technique to build Yin at the same speed.

 

So now to my question, are there any good alternatives to Mo Pai? No so much interested in the 'abilities'  of Mo Pai but rather than retaining consciousness after death portion (supposedly one must reach level 3/4) to obtain in Mo Pai. In Kostas books if anything he said is to be believed, is that there were 3 different lineages, one being Mo Pai, so there must be similar and better systems out there but I can't seem to find any good information, seems that Mo Pai reigns supreme despite having no knowledge (that can be confirmed) from the actual school. It's hard to tell the good schools from the fake so if anyone know of any that would be great.

Edited February 8, 2020 by ballzan

[gatito]

There's no evidence whatsoever that consciousness ceases at the point of death.

 

If you want to experience the reality of that yourself first-hand, a time-tested way is via learning to meditate and by practicing diligently for a few years.

 

[MegaMind]

56 minutes ago, ballzan said:

So I was a student of Jim Mcmillan something like 12 years ago when I was around 16, at the time I took him at his word not having read The Magus of Java or heard anything conflicting. Now years later there are a lot of things that just seem off, level 1 just seems bare, and 2 goes against many Qi Gong and Nei Kung beliefs that proper breath is important. Also in The Magus of Java (which Kostas has admitted in an interview was embellished to make it a better read) they seem to disagree on things which shouldn't be the case for low level students. When speaking with Jim I remember asking if he could give any demonstrations and his words being "I don't have the Yin built up to do it without my master" he also mentioned that it takes many more years to accumulate equivalent Yin to post level 1 Yang collection. This doesn't make sense at all, Nei Kung is supposed to be more about Yin and Yang balance but yet seems that Mo Pai is still very Yang first and lacks proper technique to build Yin at the same speed.

 

So now to my question, are there any good alternatives to Mo Pai? No so much interested in the 'abilities'  of Mo Pai but rather than retaining consciousness after death portion (supposedly one must reach level 3/4) to obtain in Mo Pai. In Kostas books if anything he said is to be believed, is that there were 3 different lineages, one being Mo Pai, so there must be similar and better systems out there but I can't seem to find any good information, seems that Mo Pai reigns supreme despite having no knowledge (that can be confirmed) from the actual school. It's hard to tell the good schools from the fake so if anyone know of any that would be great.

 

According to John there are approximately 10 others living on earth that have fused yin and yang.

 

There are none in Tibet, or India, according to him they are all in China.

[doc benway]

54 minutes ago, ballzan said:

So now to my question, are there any good alternatives to Mo Pai? No so much interested in the 'abilities'  of Mo Pai but rather than retaining consciousness after death portion.

 

Tibetan Buddhist and Bön tantra and dzogchen lineages teach practices to retain awareness in the bardo. In the Bön teachings, the Mother Tantra has practices of dream and sleep yoga, phowa, bardo, and tummo. The lineages are credible, traceable, and the teachers accessible. 

[MegaMind]

3 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Tibetan Buddhist and Bön tantra and dzogchen lineages teach practices to retain awareness in the bardo. In the Bön teachings, the Mother Tantra has practices of dream and sleep yoga, phowa, bardo, and tummo. The lineages are credible, traceable, and the teachers accessible. 

 

There are lots of Christian monks that are willing to teach you how to dedicate your life to Jesus.

 

That doesn't mean their teachings actually produce results you can quantify.

[gatito]

11 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Tibetan Buddhist and Bön tantra and dzogchen lineages teach practices to retain awareness in the bardo. In the Bön teachings, the Mother Tantra has practices of dream and sleep yoga, phowa, bardo, and tummo. The lineages are credible, traceable, and the teachers accessible. 

 

Again, there is no evidence that consciousness disappears at the point of death.

 

What do you imagine happened to our ancestors before someone invented your religion?

 

[gatito]

9 minutes ago, MegaMind said:

 

There are lots of Christian monks that are willing to teach you how to dedicate your life to Jesus.

 

That doesn't mean their teachings actually produce results you can quantify.

 

 

Nor does it mean that there are no quantifiable results.

[MegaMind]

Just now, gatito said:

 

Nor does it mean that there are no quantifiable results.

 

It's not unreasonable to want to verify a practice actually does something before dedicating your life to it.

[gatito]

1 minute ago, MegaMind said:

 

It's not unreasonable to want to verify a practice actually does something before dedicating your life to it.

 

 

Of course.

 

Even so, the meditative path to enlightment lasts only 6 - 24 months if you dedicate yourself to it properly.

 

[MegaMind]

1 hour ago, gatito said:

 

Of course.

 

Even so, the meditative path to enlightment lasts only 6 - 24 months if you dedicate yourself to it properly.

 

 

If that were true I would think there would be hundreds of thousands if not millions of living Buddhas.

[gatito]

Indeed.

 

Perhaps there are..?

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

Tibetan Buddhist and Bön tantra and dzogchen lineages teach practices to retain awareness in the bardo. In the Bön teachings, the Mother Tantra has practices of dream and sleep yoga, phowa, bardo, and tummo. The lineages are credible, traceable, and the teachers accessible. 

 

2 hours ago, MegaMind said:

 

There are lots of Christian monks that are willing to teach you how to dedicate your life to Jesus.

 

That doesn't mean their teachings actually produce results you can quantify.

 

Quantify?  Perhaps not.  But that´s hardly the only way -- and maybe not the best way -- to judge a practice tradition.  A person could take up a practice for a week or two, perhaps in the form of widely available online courses, and get personal experience.  This wouldn´t be enough experience to "retain awareness in the bardo" but it would be enough to give someone a sense for whether or not they wanted to continue.  

[MegaMind]

2 minutes ago, gatito said:

Indeed.

 

Perhaps there are..?

 

We have lots of guys like this:

 

 

[gatito]

Just now, MegaMind said:

 

We have lots of guys like this:

 

 

 

Do you really?

 

I guess most buddhas wouldn't hang around in those environments.

 

So, if you're looking for one, you'd probably be wise to look elsewhere.

 

 

[MegaMind]

Just now, liminal_luke said:

 

 

Quantify?  Perhaps not.  But that´s hardly the only way -- and maybe not the best way -- to judge a practice tradition.  A person could take up a practice for a week or two, perhaps in the form of widely available online courses, and get personal experience.  This wouldn´t be enough experience to "retain awareness in the bardo" but it would be enough to give someone a sense for whether or not they wanted to continue.  

 

If we can't quantify it and measure it, then really all we have is personal testimony that it actually does something.

 

Just eat this communion wafer, and drink this grape juice, and magically it turns into demi-god/human flesh and blood in your stomach.

 

Just accept Jesus as your personal savior and you go to heaven.

 

It's true! 

 

Walk by faith and not by sight!

 

A better approach to this is finding a system that can be quantified, and you can explore yourself first hand.

 

It is better to base your beliefs on objective evidence and self observation than faith and personal testimony.

[MegaMind]

Just now, gatito said:

 

Do you really?

 

I guess most buddhas wouldn't hang around in those environments.

 

So, if you're looking for one, you'd probably be wise to look elsewhere.

 

 

 

Not me personally.

 

We have a lot of guys like that, as in those are the most common sorts of people pursuing spiritual traditions.

[gatito]

6 minutes ago, MegaMind said:

 

Not me personally.

 

We have a lot of guys like that, as in those are the most common sorts of people pursuing spiritual traditions.

 

 

In your world, perhaps...

 

[liminal_luke]

7 minutes ago, MegaMind said:

 

It is better to base your beliefs on objective evidence and self observation than faith and personal testimony.

 

Unless the personal testimony in question is one´s own.  

[gatito]

Just now, liminal_luke said:

 

Unless the personal testimony in question is one´s own.  

 

 

Exactly.

[MegaMind]

Just now, gatito said:

 

In your world, perhaps...

 

 

Unless you are a figment of my imagination, it's your world as well.

[gatito]

15 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

 

Quantify?  Perhaps not.  But that´s hardly the only way -- and maybe not the best way -- to judge a practice tradition.  A person could take up a practice for a week or two, perhaps in the form of widely available online courses, and get personal experience.  This wouldn´t be enough experience to "retain awareness in the bardo" but it would be enough to give someone a sense for whether or not they wanted to continue.  

 

Have you considered the possibility that everyone naturally retains awarenes after death?

 

[MegaMind]

4 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Unless the personal testimony in question is one´s own.  

 

Well what you see and observe is meaningful to you, but not so much other people.

 

For instance if you saw real aliens, and you tried to tell people about it that experience you had, that first hand knowledge cannot be transferred to them.

 

You will just be a rambling crazy person to most.

 

It would take them actually seeing the same aliens first hand to be able to know it was true.

Edited February 9, 2020 by MegaMind

[gatito]

3 minutes ago, MegaMind said:

 

Unless you are a figment of my imagination, it's your world as well.

 

 

No.

 

Culturally my world is very different from the one you've illustrated above.

 

Edited February 9, 2020 by gatito

[MegaMind]

2 minutes ago, gatito said:

 

Have you considered the possibility that everyone naturally retains awarenes after death?

 

 

That doesn't happen.

[gatito]

Just now, MegaMind said:

 

That doesn't happen.

 

 

Evidence?