Town Hall Meeting on Self-Governance for TDB Re: No Mods or Sean Currently

[Earl Grey]

I'm calling a town meeting right now to highlight the issue of self-governance now that we are in a state of total anarchy without mods to enforce rules, or any rules whatsoever at this point. 

 

There are issues going on with people derailing threads and spamming them to suit their agenda.

 

This is a fine example and was Sean's last moderation, but there were no punitive measures taken. 

 

There are plenty of other threads here that I need not bring up because it's not hard to find a topic title and find people deviating from it and forcing an agenda completely unrelated. 

 

Two arguments that I hear often are "Just ignore them or use the ignore function" and "Be spiritual and tolerate", but the problems with those two approaches are 1) they normalize bad behavior, 2) they distract and detract from the discussion (especially for those not logged in who don't have the ability to use the ignore function that members do), 3) it makes every thread a bait-and-switch because a random search for a topic that was once Mr. Rogers and spirituality for example becomes laden with conspiracies involving the CIA and someone declaring his own authority as a Christian and educator, 4) for members who come here to talk about cultivation or philosophy, history, or relevant issues, it's like tuning in to watch Mad Men and trolls coming in to change the channel to watch Fox News and spammers making you watch infomercials instead. 

 

Obviously, we do not have the ability to suspend or ban and remove or hide threads and posts. 

 

But behavior such as threats (several members have sent out very obvious public and private threats) also accompanies this unmoderated dialogue. So while some may argue to tolerate it or get out, this means "Accept spamming and trolling, accept threats and abuse". 

 

I also believe in exceptions, such as this and this, where we are dealing with potential dangers to other members on the forum. On the one hand, the topic is deviating from what was posted in these two examples, on the other hand, why let seeds of what is harmful be planted and even allowed to grow and take root when we can stop it from even happening? 

 

Some may say that this is an eclectic community and we are not a VIP club or elite group, but then there runs the issue that runs with playing with qi and how misinformation and disinformation can seriously harm complete neophytes trying to avoid spending money on teachers or who just don't have access to quality teachers and lineages at all, and the sad fact is, many are coming for power and techniques. These can ultimately cause harm to people and to the forum community as a whole.

 

I've come to a point where I had to take a two-week stress leave because it was becoming too much, and while I am not proud of my behavior with personal insults and getting angry (to put it mildly...), I do believe that it is understandable given the fact that a simple thing like having a discussion on topic without having to worry about spamming, trolling, seeing misinformation and disinformation, or being threatened, should be here. 

 

I propose discussing what we can do collectively without moderation privileges to enforce rules and without resorting to mob mentality to create some sense of balance and order here rather than chaotic unrest, the bad chaos, as opposed to primordial chaos and true creativity. 

 

So, talk amongst yourselves. 

Edited February 9, 2020 by Earl Grey

[gatito]

Enjoy yourselves but remember to get Sean onboard because otherwise, apart from the intrinsic joy of participating in this thread, it's a monumental waste of time.

 

[gendao]

54 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

I also believe in exceptions, such as this and this, where we are dealing with potential dangers to other members on the forum.

Thing is, like with Jeff's BustyBlonde Pai...he soon got called out by several members that brought up evidence for everyone to openly consider...and Jeff finally just left of his own accord.  So, he literally lasted only a day here, and the entire dialogue was open to everyone and left entirely transparent for anyone else to review in the future.

 

Yes, it is anti-hierarchical...and more of a digital, egalitarian council circle where no one can pull rank. 

Spoiler

In an aboriginal circle of oneness, not pyramid scheme of cevilization. 

But, I'd say it worked very well considering the immense amount of unspoken words that got heard and with such a timely conclusion!

 

Edited February 9, 2020 by gendao

[Earl Grey]

35 minutes ago, gatito said:

Enjoy yourselves but remember to get Sean onboard because otherwise, apart from the intrinsic joy of participating in this thread, it's a monumental waste of time.

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Flies

[gatito]

Exactly.

 

It's a very slippery slope.

[Earl Grey]

5 minutes ago, gatito said:

Exactly.

 

It's a very slippery slope.

 

At least we can try, rather than giving up before even starting. 

 

Who knows how people will respond to this and act moving forward? I'd like some semblance of order and balance, but we'll see. 

Edited February 9, 2020 by Earl Grey

[SirPalomides]

For starters, anyone who publicly claims to be a master of anything, or offers some spiritual service, should be expected to give a detailed account of their qualifications, lineage, teacher, etc. Members should rigorously grill them until a satisfactory account is given. “Buy my book and find out” is not an acceptable answer; “the Lord Lao appeared to me in a dream” can only work if accompanied by a humble recognition that this claim is unverifiable by others and therefore no one is bound to respect it. 
 

Those “masters” unwilling to give such an account (and there could be legitimate reasons) should be accordingly circumspect and unassuming. 

 

Publicly offering services for money on the forum or threatening those who question your authority should be grounds for ostracization and pestering until the person reforms or departs.

 

[gatito]

56 minutes ago, gatito said:

Enjoy yourselves but remember to get Sean onboard because otherwise, apart from the intrinsic joy of participating in this thread, it's a monumental waste of time.

 

 

Actually, just seen @SirPalomides contribution and I retract the bit about it being a monumental waste of time.

 

Perhaps you've started a healthy and useful discussion here @Earl Grey

[gatito]

9 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

For starters, anyone who publicly claims to be a master of anything, or offers some spiritual service, should be expected to give a detailed account of their qualifications, lineage, teacher, etc. Members should rigorously grill them until a satisfactory account is given. “Buy my book and find out” is not an acceptable answer; “the Lord Lao appeared to me in a dream” can only work if accompanied by a humble recognition that this claim is unverifiable by others and therefore no one is bound to respect it. 
 

Those “masters” unwilling to give such an account (and there could be legitimate reasons) should be accordingly circumspect and unassuming. 

 

Publicly offering services for money on the forum or threatening those who question your authority should be grounds for ostracization and pestering until the person reforms or departs.

 

 

Interestingly, this forum has a long-established history of disposing of "wannabee" gurus (both amateur and professional).

 

[Nungali]

Site is thedaobums   not thedaomasters . 

 

Any wannabe masters should go to thedaomasters  forum .

 

https://forum.wuxiaworld.com/discussion/10683/master-of-untold-daos-万道仙师

 

( page 17 has the big boobed blonde's first appearance )

Edited February 9, 2020 by Nungali

[Apech]

10 hours ago, gatito said:

 

Interestingly, this forum has a long-established history of disposing of "wannabee" gurus (both amateur and professional).

 

 

But you keep coming back

[Jeff]

11 hours ago, gendao said:

Thing is, like with Jeff's BustyBlonde Pai...he soon got called out by several members that brought up evidence for everyone to openly consider...and Jeff finally just left of his own accord.  So, he literally lasted only a day here, and the entire dialogue was open to everyone and left entirely transparent for anyone else to review in the future.

 

Yes, it is anti-hierarchical...and more of a digital, egalitarian council circle where no one can pull rank. 

  Reveal hidden contents

In an aboriginal circle of oneness, not pyramid scheme of cevilization. 

But, I'd say it worked very well considering the immense amount of unspoken words that got heard and with such a timely conclusion!

 

 

I would agree with the OP that it is a good question of discussion to ask, but a meaningless one, as Sean does not really care about moderation.  It is the Wild West and will probably just stay that way.

[gendao]

^ Well, there is no perfect government here.

Sean is too busy with actual adulting to play sandbox referee (and also has his own biases).

Any moderators all have their own biases.

Any curation will also have its own biases.

Total anarchy could allow any really bad actors to truly transgress (like posting links to viruses or complete bot spamming) unstopped.

 

But given that there is ultimately no one-size-fits-all solution, what I would recommend is maybe changing the post-rating system to the industry-standard (Amazon, Yelp, etc), 5-star user feedback scale.  A subjective, majority opinion is just that...but may still be useful when taken just for what it is.

 

And also promote a lot more "shadow"/TRUTH WORK for both sides...rather than just targeting the triggers only.  If you are feeling triggered by a post/topic, or triggered and want to post (very guilty of myself, BTW, lol)...also take that as a ripe moment to practice whatever method you use for self-inquiry.  Go ahead and still post your heart out...but don't miss the opportunity to at least check your own reflection and do a little NEIGONG at the same time!  I'm triggered...so where is this really coming from (within me)?  That's always the million dollar question, right?

Edited February 9, 2020 by gendao

[gatito]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

But you keep coming back

 

 

Still struggling with my previous contributions towards cleaning up the Buddhist sub-forum here (or elsewhere):

 

Or did you take my historical, generalised and light-hearted remarks about pseudointellectual pseudobuddhists or tediously boring twats personally?

 

 

[Nungali]

Here is what I dont get ;

 

When I came here there where lots of mods and  'admin' workers and assistants .  Sometimes they would be 'up late' fixing or doing something  on the site  ( I wouldnt know ,  I am a 'lotech' ) . Some seem dedicated  and put  a lot of time in, according to them.

 

The first few decades of the community I lived on ; we had a meeting each week, they seemed endless and where about all sorts of things, permissions, problems, arrangements , sorting out , organising. paperwork,  etc .

 

Now , the site 'sort of '  runs itself,    its chaotic ,  but chugs along    ..... what where all those people doing before , it cant have all been moderation ?   ( I go to MUCH larger sites then this  that have  4 mods ,   and one that had 1 mod .  )

 

Now the community has abandoned  weekly meetings and all that organised kerfuffle , things chug along  pretty much as before , what where all those people doing before ? 

 

Some energy is dispelled on the community in fights or arguments  .... but no where near as much as before with all the regulation, organisation, 'consultation'   etc .     And interpersonal, dis organisational and environmental problems still existed  with all these meetings and discussions .

 

Now ( well, it started a while back, but there is always lots of 'talk' before anything happens , if it does )  the current  flavour is  'sociocracy '    thats what they are   enamoured with*  .  This might be similar to Gendao's  ' egalitarian council circle where no one can pull rank' .    They love the idea of this as those with 'personal agendas' have no one 'pulling rank on them'  

 

Thing is , under  a hierarchical / 'democratic' system  /  ' normal business model '   ( a company limited by guarantee )  the place ran and offered a near utopian idyllic lifestyle and environment .   Under 'sociocracy '  ?    They cant even get it together  to have  a sociocratic meeting  of any substance  ( they had one where they made committees   and people put their name down  to be 'on that group '    -   multiple people where on multiple groups , but they never went beyond there anyway) .   A few tried it out from one of the groups formed  - they fought like bitches and abandoned it  , but never admitted it , they are still all ;  " Oh yeah sociocracy, thats cool, thats the way to go . ' "    And have virtually wreaked the system, the place, the way people get on, the environment , etc .

 

Bunches of people out there with no REAL experience  in group management  and organisation  offering scatterbrained  ideas  that are the 'in thing'  that they dont have a clue about  ..... out with the old ( that worked )  and in with the new ( that they are too stupid to understand , or move beyond their conditioning to implement ) .

 

 I have been in many groups   (including being the chairperson on 3 different companies boards )   and one thing has been made clear to me;  no matter what thing your group is  doing, it will fail if 'group dynamics' are not understood and addressed  in a relevant way  - and a whole section of the populace doesnt like that ,   becasue they want to do shit - basically .

 

I was also 'Chair'  (on a group of 9 elected representatives )  on a Baha'i Spiritual Assembly  ( they elect 9 people to manage their affairs, in replacement of the idea of 'clergy' ) ,  its a great 'spiritual administration' system , and a certain amount of understanding , wisdom and development  is required to take such a position   ..... is human BS absent  there ?   NOPE .

 

There ARE some systems that work, becasue they address human nature  .... but people do not want to admit or own that nature , they imagine they are something else  ; balanced people without issues that can make clear decisions ..... THAT requires a HEAP of training and needs to be objectively assessed . . .   but they imagine and believe it will just happen with 'the right system' while not addressing the lack of personal development  that doesnt allow them to implement an 'advanced and enlightened ' system .

 

But nowadays , anybody 'has the right' to do or be anything  .    I mean , look what pollies and police do !     In a system I was involved in, it took years of basic training to get some awareness about yourself and processes . Then you might get invited to a higher level . Then intellectual and physical prowess need to be demonstrated , as well as an understanding of human nature, philosophy and politics , after that   you are eligible for a seat in the organisations  Senate .  From this are drawn the  'rank' of people that act in a similar way to 'police'  .... it is considered that you cannot  govern or police  others unless you  yourself have demonstrated a certain level of qualities , 'in the hierarchy'  .   It doesnt mean that  these people are perfect , but at least 'the system' tried  ... it doesnt say 'we are all equal' , no hierarchy , anyone can and has the ability to govern .... or police .

 

 

And while I am having a bitch ;   so many times I have heard people moan about hierarchy  and want another system  ' like the indigenous '  or want to ' go free and tribal'  ,  or move over the land that 'no one owns ' .    HA!  All I can say to that is - try it  .... go live with a tribe ... not as a  visitor  .... go  LIVE with them ... then you will see what hierarchy is about  !

 

Now, feel free to attack me for such conservative views  ......  AFTER  you have real life experience  which shows the opposite !

 

 

*  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociocracy

[Apech]

4 hours ago, gatito said:

 

Still struggling with my previous contributions towards cleaning up the Buddhist sub-forum here (or elsewhere):

 

Or did you take my historical, generalised and light-hearted remarks about pseudointellectual pseudobuddhists or tediously boring twats personally?

 

 

 

It's not easy being tediously boring you know.

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

Here is what I dont get ;

 

When I came here there where lots of mods and  'admin' workers and assistants .  Sometimes they would be 'up late' fixing or doing something  on the site  ( I wouldnt know ,  I am a 'lotech' ) . Some seem dedicated  and put  a lot of time in, according to them.

 

The first few decades of the community I lived on ; we had a meeting each week, they seemed endless and where about all sorts of things, permissions, problems, arrangements , sorting out , organising. paperwork,  etc .

 

Now , the site 'sort of '  runs itself,    its chaotic ,  but chugs along    ..... what where all those people doing before , it cant have all been moderation ?   ( I go to MUCH larger sites then this  that have  4 mods ,   and one that had 1 mod .  )

 

Now the community has abandoned  weekly meetings and all that organised kerfuffle , things chug along  pretty much as before , what where all those people doing before ? 

 

Some energy is dispelled on the community in fights or arguments  .... but no where near as much as before with all the regulation, organisation, 'consultation'   etc .     And interpersonal, dis organisational and environmental problems still existed  with all these meetings and discussions .

 

Now ( well, it started a while back, but there is always lots of 'talk' before anything happens , if it does )  the current  flavour is  'sociocracy '    thats what they are   enamoured with*  .  This might be similar to Gendao's  ' egalitarian council circle where no one can pull rank' .    They love the idea of this as those with 'personal agendas' have no one 'pulling rank on them'  

 

Thing is , under  a hierarchical / 'democratic' system  /  ' normal business model '   ( a company limited by guarantee )  the place ran and offered a near utopian idyllic lifestyle and environment .   Under 'sociocracy '  ?    They cant even get it together  to have  a sociocratic meeting  of any substance  ( they had one where they made committees   and people put their name down  to be 'on that group '    -   multiple people where on multiple groups , but they never went beyond there anyway) .   A few tried it out from one of the groups formed  - they fought like bitches and abandoned it  , but never admitted it , they are still all ;  " Oh yeah sociocracy, thats cool, thats the way to go . ' "    And have virtually wreaked the system, the place, the way people get on, the environment , etc .

 

Bunches of people out there with no REAL experience  in group management  and organisation  offering scatterbrained  ideas  that are the 'in thing'  that they dont have a clue about  ..... out with the old ( that worked )  and in with the new ( that they are too stupid to understand , or move beyond their conditioning to implement ) .

 

 I have been in many groups   (including being the chairperson on 3 different companies boards )   and one thing has been made clear to me;  no matter what thing your group is  doing, it will fail if 'group dynamics' are not understood and addressed  in a relevant way  - and a whole section of the populace doesnt like that ,   becasue they want to do shit - basically .

 

I was also 'Chair'  (on a group of 9 elected representatives )  on a Baha'i Spiritual Assembly  ( they elect 9 people to manage their affairs, in replacement of the idea of 'clergy' ) ,  its a great 'spiritual administration' system , and a certain amount of understanding , wisdom and development  is required to take such a position   ..... is human BS absent  there ?   NOPE .

 

There ARE some systems that work, becasue they address human nature  .... but people do not want to admit or own that nature , they imagine they are something else  ; balanced people without issues that can make clear decisions ..... THAT requires a HEAP of training and needs to be objectively assessed . . .   but they imagine and believe it will just happen with 'the right system' while not addressing the lack of personal development  that doesnt allow them to implement an 'advanced and enlightened ' system .

 

But nowadays , anybody 'has the right' to do or be anything  .    I mean , look what pollies and police do !     In a system I was involved in, it took years of basic training to get some awareness about yourself and processes . Then you might get invited to a higher level . Then intellectual and physical prowess need to be demonstrated , as well as an understanding of human nature, philosophy and politics , after that   you are eligible for a seat in the organisations  Senate .  From this are drawn the  'rank' of people that act in a similar way to 'police'  .... it is considered that you cannot  govern or police  others unless you  yourself have demonstrated a certain level of qualities , 'in the hierarchy'  .   It doesnt mean that  these people are perfect , but at least 'the system' tried  ... it doesnt say 'we are all equal' , no hierarchy , anyone can and has the ability to govern .... or police .

 

 

And while I am having a bitch ;   so many times I have heard people moan about hierarchy  and want another system  ' like the indigenous '  or want to ' go free and tribal'  ,  or move over the land that 'no one owns ' .    HA!  All I can say to that is - try it  .... go live with a tribe ... not as a  visitor  .... go  LIVE with them ... then you will see what hierarchy is about  !

 

Now, feel free to attack me for such conservative views  ......  AFTER  you have real life experience  which shows the opposite !

 

 

*  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociocracy

 

Only one man can pull the sword from the stone.

[SirPalomides]

13 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

Well, long story short, most people wouldn't believe me if I told them, and only a very few could relate to it even if they did believe it.  In addition it generally creates anger and jealousy in those with ego problems, which is most every one; plus, the idea of respecting authority is now a sin.  So telling people to buy my book is way of blowing them off, telling them they don't really care to know, they just want something to target, and I don't give a damn any more.  The patients are now running the asylum.  You are new here, I've been here for around ten years, and the old timers know of my teachings and back story,  I'm tired of repeating myself.  Your comment made me think of writing about myself in a post in my PPF, but there is so much to write, it would end up being like a book, if you catch my drift ... It would get the same reactions which I mentioned at the start.

 

Maybe I'll do it anyway, don't hold your breath.

 

if you are interested in the hidden higher levels of spiritual and energy cultivation in Taoism then you can get the facts and details in my book, but you aren't really interested in such things.

 

 

If your cultivation were nearly as good as you let on you would not be spending hours on an Internet forum, reacting with hair trigger reflex to praise and blame like a typical person. If you have had good teachers I recommend not naming them for the sake for their reputation.

[Starjumper]

.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Starjumper

[SirPalomides]

1 minute ago, Starjumper said:

 

You're an  idiot, assuming things based on your limited viewpoint and passing judgement on your superiors. 

There it is again. All that “cultivation” and still such a fragile ego. Charlatan.

[ilumairen]

18 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

You're an  idiot, assuming things based on your limited viewpoint and passing judgement on your superiors. 

 

 

Why would you illustrate his point about hair trigger reflex to praise and blame star?

 

@SirPalomides he had a teacher in marital arts who taught predominantly without speaking, and he's been interacting in this manner for as long as I've known him - which dates back to the old AOL days. 

 

He loves to speak of others immaturity while running around like a small child saying, "watch this!" and talking about how fast and strong he is.

 

If you have this image in mind, his little fits are easier to deal with, or outright ignore. 

 

[ilumairen]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

 

Well, long story short, most people wouldn't believe me if I told them, and only a very few could relate to it even if they did believe it.  In addition it generally creates anger and jealousy in those with ego problems, which is most every one; 

 

 

The pretty mean girl defense? 

 

People not liking me has nothing to do with how I treat them; they're just jealous because I'm pretty more powerful than they are. I don't act like a bitch asshole; they're just angry because they have ego problems.

 

How vapid star.

 

And I actually like you; I can't imagine how you come across to those who don't. 

 

[ilumairen]

35 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Darlin' Ilumaren, Your imagination is running away from you a little there.  The way I write is designed to separate the men from the boys and I know well how I come across to each type.

 

Then perhaps it isn't coming across as you intend my dear attention seeking child. 

 

Quote

But enough about me, let's wait till another child complains about my writing style.

 

https://images.app.goo.gl/pfgtRE8wwQJE7e3K6

 

[moment]

22 hours ago, gatito said:

Enjoy yourselves but remember to get Sean onboard because otherwise, apart from the intrinsic joy of participating in this thread, it's a monumental waste of time.

 

I believe that sean has been overwhelmed, by numerous circumstances, in his personal life--anyone with more information please step forward!  We need to offer him all of our support and take care of ouselves (through community building) in the mean-time.

[Earl Grey]

While we can't ban people or force them to accept anything that is decided from self-governance, and obviously not all of us will agree, a few things I can think of:

 

1) volunteers who will approach people individually and in private, akin to someone asking, "Hey, can I borrow you for a moment?" pull the individual aside, talk to them as a friend and try to understand them, then ask them to dial things back a bit. One member does this and has done so for me to good success. They won't need to announce who they are publicly either. 

 

2) volunteers who can highlight like @Walker did here when I was pretty much completely pissed off and losing control and face in a manner that communicates care and mutual interest for the community and for the individual member. 

 

3) members who vow to voluntarily take a break for a few days or weeks and focus on themselves rather than coming up with a response or an insult to someone as fast as possible. I learned the wonders of taking a week off and two weeks off to let conversations carry on by themselves rather than to force the issue, and it actually allowed the issue to evolve in a way that didn't involve me getting frustrated that few were understanding as well as I wanted. 

 

4) ad hoc groups who volunteer to intervene not to ostracize or to mob and lynch an offending member, but to pull them aside and ask them to reconsider their actions as well as hearing them out, away from public viewing. 

 

Obviously, the above will take a lot of work and rely on the good will of both those volunteering and those in the hot seat, but I'm really throwing out whatever I can now since this place really could use some balance.