Working Meditation

[Dame Du Lac]

Does anyone know much about "working meditation"? I'm specifically referring to periods of intense focus or altered states while performing daily tasks. I understand that this is common in Japan, for example while chopping wood or preparing food, and I was wondering if anyone has experience or tips with the practice.

 

I'm picking up nalbinding and would like to combine my "crafting time" with my meditation time.

[ReturnDragon]

I don't mean to be mean. Would you believe me if I say there is no such thing as Working Meditation?

[Starjumper]

Don't listen to Return Dragon, it appears he's got everything backwards.

 

For working meditation all you have to do is focus on your work, but it must be some physical activity rather than mental work.  What makes it a meditation is the requirement for not thinking about anything, rather just focus on what your body/hands are doing, which is exactly the same definition used in sitting, standing, and moving meditations.

Edited February 9, 2020 by Starjumper

[ReturnDragon]

Quote

 

For working meditation all you have to do is focus on your work, but it must be some physical activity rather than mental work.  What makes it a meditation is the requirement for not thinking about anything, rather just focus on what your body/hands are doing, which is exactly the same definition used in sitting, standing, and moving meditations.

That is what was called concentration in our ordinary life. My friend.  Anyone can do that. Since we have three definitions already, why even bother to have some more. I know semantics are very trivial. Can you distinguish the difference between sitting, standing, and moving meditations?

I know you very active here. So far, I have not heard anything solid from any of your post beside responded with a good laugh.

PS I am not trying to start a fight. OK! I just like to deal thing with comprehension.   

Edited February 9, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[ilumairen]

3 hours ago, Dame Du Lac said:

Does anyone know much about "working meditation"? I'm specifically referring to periods of intense focus or altered states while performing daily tasks. I understand that this is common in Japan, for example while chopping wood or preparing food, and I was wondering if anyone has experience or tips with the practice.

 

I'm picking up nalbinding and would like to combine my "crafting time" with my meditation time.

 

Is this similar to what you're looking for?

 

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-flow-2794768

 

 

https://wkup.org/working-meditation/

[Spotless]

A bit of whiplash from the first few posts but with my head shaking “no” my post is saying “yes”

Though I would Not say “just focus on what your body/hands are doing” - however it may be his way of saying “don’t leave your body”.

 

Original Post - Dame Du Lac

Does anyone know much about "working meditation"? I'm specifically referring to periods of intense focus or altered states while performing daily tasks. I understand that this is common in Japan, for example while chopping wood or preparing food, and I was wondering if anyone has experience or tips with the practice.

- end quote -

 

Though I would not say “just focus on what your body/hands are doing”

 

There is no focusing or holding of the Awareness on anything.

 

And it is more easily done if breathing into the Lower Dan Tien and having ones awareness there.

 

Most hold a tension forward of the center of head and some outside the head - Awareness in embodiment is becoming more familiar and in this type of meditation space it is required for safety - the other locations move too easily into trance and you could cut yourself or walk off a cliff or into a wall.

 

Going into this type of meditation is usually something done by relatively “seasoned” meditators and often something they begin to experience without trying to.

 

If you feel you are experiencing this with considerable ease and little experience then you are far more probable to be in trance and floating off during repetition tasks. You are probably fairly easy to trance out and may experience what you experience while playing some music and during group conversations with lots of talking.

 

Many people completely and incorrectly believe certain trance states are “meditation”. Though it is possible to be in meditation while the rest of “you” is in trance, the nature of Being in Self is definitely not “in trance”.  (Sometimes for pain or protection a sphere of trance may be required in order for those pain or fear sensations to vanish and in the eye of the storm is Being with Self in no effort - Awareness - Divine Essence - this is a fairly rare but not uncommon occurrence.)

 

gotta go - will add to later

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by Spotless

[ReturnDragon]

FYI It doesn't matter you are working, sitting, standing or walking. You just cannot skip the definition as posted below.
When I work, sitting, standing or walking, I do the abdominal breathing as required by QiGong. BTW I do Tai Chi and coordinate my breathing with the movements. Now, I can claim that I have a Tai Chi body. For that said, I can demonstrate my physical ability or power.

He had practiced forty-four years of Tai Chi breathing. This guy is seventy-one(71) years old. Yours truly!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBAHRqOtJDQ
 

 

 

[Starjumper]

15 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

FYI It doesn't matter you are working, sitting, standing or walking. You just cannot skip the definition as posted below.
When I work, sitting, standing or walking, I do the abdominal breathing as required by QiGong. BTW I do Tai Chi and coordinate my breathing with the movements. Now, I can claim that I have a Tai Chi body. For that said, I can demonstrate my physical ability or power.

 

I've heard of other people who have been doing it wrong for forty years.  Your tai chi stinks.  You  move like an old fashioned robot with a telephone pole up its ass.  Your concepts of what chi kung is really about and what it's higher levels consist of is kindergarten level.  You have been taught wrong.  The fact that you are teaching your bullshit means you are teaching lies.  Those who teach lies are my enemy.  Your tai chi 'body' in not so special, I have a nei kung/wizard's body, and I can whoop your ass with one hand behind my back.

[ReturnDragon]

Thank you Starjumper,
I will delete this nonsense after I hear somemore comments.

[Nintendao]

1 hour ago, ReturnDragon said:

When I work, sitting, standing or walking, I do the abdominal breathing as required by QiGong.

 

So simple, yet so often overlooked, when distracted doing all kinds of stuff out there. The relaxed yet expansive breath, maybe at least a good step toward achieving @Dame Du Lac's question.

 

 

Spoiler

 

"Don't forget to breathe" 🥰

 

 

 

[Starjumper]

I agree, abdominal breathing is the 'way' to live, no matter what, I don't see it as anything particularly special about chi kung though, it should be an underlying background activity in all things.

[ReturnDragon]

It is in the eyes of the beholder and comprehension. It depends how much weight that one wants to put into the practice. The more weight one puts into the practice; it will be more effective at the end result.

[ReturnDragon]

8 hours ago, Starjumper said:

I've heard of other people who have been doing it wrong for forty years.

Yes, I grant you that.
Have you ever bothered to find out why some people did it right? I believe that they didn't leave the ultimate breathing method(UBM) out into the unknown.


Wu Wei & peace
RD
 

Edited February 10, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[Earl Grey]

14 hours ago, Dame Du Lac said:

Does anyone know much about "working meditation"? I'm specifically referring to periods of intense focus or altered states while performing daily tasks. I understand that this is common in Japan, for example while chopping wood or preparing food, and I was wondering if anyone has experience or tips with the practice.

 

I'm picking up nalbinding and would like to combine my "crafting time" with my meditation time.

 

I'll respond to your post directly for your concern. Before we go on, FYI the "chop wood and carry water" is not exclusively from Japan, as it's also been repeated in Chan Buddhism. 

 

If you're talking about trying to reach a meditative state during mundane activities, here's what I've found in my own training.

 

After years of sitting and standing in my Taiji and Xin Yi lineages respectively, it's also a technical thing that comes spontaneously and is how I experience the wu wei state. 

 

As the way I learned golden flower is not just a mental thing, but an energetic practice because it rewires the body and mind, and reinforces a connection where neither body nor mind are separate and all is mind. It may sound like a platitude, but these are my own words and how I experience it. So how that makes mundane things like work a meditative process is that I can be in that state after I've left my meditation, a state of awareness. Mind you, it doesn't make me a sage or saint, as I'm only aware--of course I'll get mad or horny, but I won't get bored. But I'm aware of everything from every cell of my skin feeling the fabric of my clothing to my heartbeat and breathing as I'm scooping out the cats' litter boxes and then walking the dogs. 

 

Likewise, when I do Zhan Zhuang, the body is grounded and is hyper-aware, to the point I have my body respond far ahead of my mind and thoughts. So if I'm doing anything like playing video games or cleaning up the house, the body just "knows without knowing" and does it on autopilot, and I'm just a witness to it in the passengers seat. 

 

From what it sounds like with you as a beginner, the closest thing you can achieve is exercising mindfulness at your level of practice. You could also do Vipasana, which is how a lot of people achieve this mindful state. 

[Earl Grey]

Now on another note, please be aware that ChiDragon is a controversial member here with the skill he has espoused based on what Walker posted here: 

 

 

Having seen his video that he posted above, I can't recommend anything he has said either as it has not led to rooting or harmony of the body, looking very mechanical as though he memorized the movements and he isn't feeling them at all. There is no physical awareness, and the mental awareness is questionable too. 

 

Granted, our school tends to look at three areas for power or skill to trust someone's abilities and advice: 1) what we read initially, which is in their body language and general demeanor, as a human being is the summary of all their experience and training, meaning when I walk around, people can see in my posture and habits that I have a martial background; 2) their understanding, based on what they say and their depth of knowledge in communicating it, which shows if they really know something or they are just parrots; 3) physical contact, often through exchange in sensing hands (tuishou). 

 

Based on what was written here and in the post Walker made, and the video, I can't say ChiDragon has any skill or knowledge to speak of, but as I haven't crossed paths with him to test his ability physically or feel his own qi, I can't make a full assessment yet. However, based on two out of three criteria, I can't recommend his skill or advice at all. 

[Sebastian]

14 hours ago, Dame Du Lac said:

Does anyone know much about "working meditation"? I'm specifically referring to periods of intense focus or altered states while performing daily tasks. I understand that this is common in Japan, for example while chopping wood or preparing food, and I was wondering if anyone has experience or tips with the practice.

 

I'm picking up nalbinding and would like to combine my "crafting time" with my meditation time.

 

Bonjour Madame,

 

If I may, let me try to help with this, from my limited experience. Although it seems Earl Grey just answered you, and has really good advice. So I can't add too much. But like him, I was taught working meditation as mind/body integration. So I thought the words you chose "intense focus" and "altered states" were a bit risky in this regard.

 

"Intense focus" drives the Qi to the head, usually the forehead. So since you are a magician :).... use your magic wand and transform the words "intense focus" into "gentle concentration" and voila, you'll have "working meditation". A gentle concentration allows your Qi to drop, from your head into your hands, and into whatever activity you are doing.  And you can stay with this "semi-interested" or passive focus, as freeform would put it, while doing every day tasks. The key is to relax (-> Qi goes down), and not to perform (-> Qi goes up). When you know the knack of this, you can do your activities with heightened Qi and energy.

 

And about "altered states", I don't think they mean too much spiritually. But it sounds cool, I know, and just washing the dishes with an everyday consciousness sounds so boring.... so I'll give you another cool(er) term to chew on. "Spiritual tipsiness". Yup. If you have the sincerity to drop your inner dialog long enough to marry the Qis of your mind and body, and use your physical activity as the unifying experience (or the minister of the ceremony to follow this analogy), you'll start feeling a bit drunk inside. But the good part of drunk, where you'll be bubbling with Qi inside, and without the bad breath.

 

So yeah, it's like a wedding were everyone got drunk.... Hummm, sorry went a bit overboard with the analogies here, but hopefully parts of this were useful to you  .... Burp, a bit drunk myself, if I may.

 

[Earl Grey]

1 minute ago, Sebastian said:

 

Bonjour Madame,

 

If I may, let me try to help with this, from my limited experience. Although it seems Earl Grey just answered you, and has really good advice. So I can't add too much. But like him, I was taught working meditation as mind/body integration. So I thought the words you chose "intense focus" and "altered states" were a bit risky in this regard.

 

"Intense focus" drives the Qi to the head, usually the forehead. So since you are a magician :).... use your magic wand and transform the words "intense focus" into "gentle concentration" and voila, you'll have "working meditation". A gentle concentration allows your Qi to drop, from your head into your hands, and into whatever activity you are doing.  And you can stay with this "semi-interested" or passive focus, as freeform would put it, while doing every day tasks. The key is to relax (-> Qi goes down), and not to perform (-> Qi goes up). When you know the knack of this, you can do your activities with heightened Qi and energy.

 

And about "altered states", I don't think they mean too much spiritually. But it sounds cool, I know, and just washing the dishes with an everyday consciousness sounds so boring.... so I'll give you another cool(er) term to chew on. "Spiritual tipsiness". Yup. If you have the sincerity to drop your inner dialog long enough to marry the Qis of your mind and body, and use your physical activity as the unifying experience (or the minister of the ceremony to follow this analogy), you'll start feeling a bit drunk inside. But the good part of drunk, where you'll be bubbling with Qi inside, and without the bad breath.

 

So yeah, it's like a wedding were everyone got drunk.... Hummm, sorry went a bit overboard with the analogies here, but hopefully parts of this were useful to you  .... Burp, a bit drunk myself, if I may.

 

 

Yes, this is very good. The altered states takes away from mindfulness, and so this is a great bit to add on, good sir.

[ReturnDragon]

Funny, I sure do have a different point of view from the westerner eyes than the easterner.

[SirPalomides]

Ah yes the orientalist defense... “it’s an eastern thing, you wouldn’t understand.” Be careful though with the assumptions you make about people here.

Edited February 10, 2020 by SirPalomides

[Earl Grey]

4 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

Funny, I sure do have a different point of view from the westerner eyes than the easterner.

 

As an Oriental myself (I can say it because I am one), I don't know how the Occidentals see you, I only am looking through the framework we use for determining skill and power. 

 

Bear in mind that the scrutiny that I give is because of very high standards from my teachers and lineage, not because of any racism or bias that you seem to be implying.

 

If you're open to feedback, then good on you, but if you're upset or defensive, I'm not out to insult you, but to advise new members and outsiders who don't have access to quality teaching for their safety. 

Edited February 10, 2020 by Earl Grey

[Sebastian]

3 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

The altered states takes away from mindfulness,

 

Yup. This is bait for Spotless too haha... I know he likes to hammer that point down... That meditation isn't trance. Sucks cause I always thought you could meditate in a techno or rave party. 

 

Alright, couldn't help myself with that bad joke. Last one, I promise.... But yeah I agree with you and Spotless on this. Carry on.

[ReturnDragon]

29 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

Be careful though with the assumptions you make about people here.

May I say am I as guilty as other people have the same assumption about yours truly?

I think Mr.Walker gad done enough damages, but why should I care?

Edited February 10, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[Earl Grey]

1 minute ago, Sebastian said:

That meditation isn't trance. Sucks cause I always thought you could meditate in a techno or rave party. 

 

Well, that depends on the kind of meditation given that there are plenty of variations.

 

But what the OP is looking for just comes from a fundamental confusion of the basics, and that's what we're here for to point out she is actually talking about mindfulness rather than altered states. 

 

As for meditating at a techno or a rave, believe it or not, part of my intermediate training was to sit in public or to stand in public, so make what you will of that...

 

Yes, I did Zhan Zhuang at the beach and a bunch of teens and college kids tried to screw with me, but couldn't stand for very long before realizing it's not an easy practice. When I did it at the park an old man came and said he was getting tired just looking at me. 

 

When I sat in my university in the middle of the walkway, the ability to tune out people who tried to make sense of why I was there was a big ego deflater. 

 

"Why are you meditating in public?"

 

"Why not? "

 

"It's kinda weird, bro!"

 

"So is your friend who is shouting at a little phone screen at someone who isn't there, so is wearing sagging baggy pants so people can see your boxers, and so is walking while eating Panda Express!" 

 

"But those are normal!"

 

"Says who?"

 

"Umm..."

 

"I am keeping to myself and not blocking anyone's way. Your friend is making people uncomfortable shouting and arguing in public and talking about her sex life. Your baggy pants are a fashion that originated from people wearing hand-me-downs because they had low income, not from being a rapper. Walking briskly while eating junk food is unhealthy and bad for your digestion."

"...weirdo."

 

"Have the best day ever!"

[SirPalomides]

16 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

May I say am I as guilty as other people have the same assumption about yous truly?

I had no assumptions about you. I see what you have said and concluded that you are not to be trusted.

[ReturnDragon]

2 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Now on another note, please be aware ChiDragon is a controversial member here with the skill he has espoused based on what Walker posted here
 

2 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Bear in mind that the scrutiny that I give is because of very high standards from my teachers and lineage, not because of any racism or bias that you seem to be implying.

 

 

2 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Based on what was written here and in the post Walker made, and the video, I can't say ChiDragon has any skill or knowledge to speak of,

If no bias, Mr. Walker's comment should not have had been mentioned. It seems to me that it did have some influences in your thoughts.

BTW You seems to be a reasonable guy. I am glad to discuss with you about my skills. I have another video to show you on Zhan Zhuang if you are interested?