Balance test in Zhan Zhuang (站樁)

[ReturnDragon]

This quote is from Earl Grey from another thread.
[qoute]Post the Zhan Zhuang video if you like publicly, but again, I come from Xin Yi, which is 心意 not 形意, and it is derived from Yi Quan, which is heavily driven by ZZ as a foundation, but not an endgame, so whatever skill you have is both derived from your ZZ and can be seen in your ZZ. [/quote]

Video expired for further comments.

Edited February 15, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[ReturnDragon]

My ZZ skill was totally from Tai Chi practice. Tai Chi require to stand up on one leg at time which equivalent to ZZ to me. This is how I acquried my ZZ balance experience.

[Earl Grey]

On 2/11/2020 at 2:13 AM, ReturnDragon said:

This quote is from Earl Grey from another thread.
[qoute]Post the Zhan Zhuang video if you like publicly, but again, I come from Xin Yi, which is 心意 not 形意, and it is derived from Yi Quan, which is heavily driven by ZZ as a foundation, but not an endgame, so whatever skill you have is both derived from your ZZ and can be seen in your ZZ. [/quote]
 

 

 

TO MAKE IT OBVIOUS IN CASE IT WASN'T ALREADY: THIS IS NOT ZHAN ZHUANG YOU ARE DOING!

 

No rooting. No harmony. No grounding. 

 

Also, you're doing movements, so I'm not sure how you as a self-taught practitioner came up with the idea to constantly do movements for Zhan Zhuang. 

 

In our practice and most that I've seen, Zhan Zhuang is holding a static posture, and our minimum for being able to stay in the school is one hour in each of the eight main postures from Yi Quan and a half hour each side for San Ti. 

 

You appear to try to show off balance, but I've seen more balance in one of my teachers on two bricks where he can be kicked and won't lost balance or form. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Earl Grey

[Earl Grey]

1 minute ago, ReturnDragon said:

My ZZ skill was totally from Tai Chi practice. Tai Chi require to stand up on one leg at time which equivalent to ZZ to me. This is how I acquried my ZZ balance experience.

 

Sadly, I don't see any rooting or grounding here, and you already look unstable without the platform you are standing on based on the way that your body moves. 

 

My teachers' records range from 3.5 to 5 hours without moving, and my own record is a little over 2 hours in Chen Bao. 

 

Your mental state as well doesn't show any harmony in your physical state as there is no skill from hindrance present, and your grounding, which should be at least seen in your stance, is almost zero. 

 

My own first-year students sadly have better skills than what is displayed in this video in Zhan Zhuang for Chen Bao (embracing) and San Ti (Trinity). 

[ReturnDragon]

13 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

No rooting. No harmony. No grounding. 

 

Also, you're doing movements, so I'm not sure how you as a self-taught practitioner came up with the idea to constantly do movements for Zhan Zhuang. 

 

In our practice and most that I've seen, Zhan Zhuang is holding a static posture, and our minimum for being able to stay in the school is one hour in each of the eight main postures from Yi Quan and a half hour each side for San Ti. 

 

You appear to try to show off balance, but I've seen more balance in one of my teachers on two bricks where he can be kicked and won't lost balance or form. 

OK, if you said I have no rooting or grounding, then wouldn't you say I will fall off to the ground already. Remember I am not standing on a flat surface rather on a slanted 2 x 4. I must move to keep my balance. The hand movements are very difficult to keep the body in balance. Please also keep in mind that I am a Tai Chi practitioner.
 

No problem I just want to hear your valuable comments. Thanks!

Edited February 10, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[Earl Grey]

Just now, ReturnDragon said:

OK, if you said I have no rooting or grounding, then wouldn't you say I will fall off to the ground already.

 

You're misdirecting here. Rooting and Grounding are specific skills. 

 

You're trying to demonstrate balance. You're able to balance on that, but the positioning of your body and the lack of harmony doesn't indicate the skill of Rooting or Grounding.

 

Grounding is analogous to being able to sink your body like a boulder, and rooting is like being a tree that no matter what part of the body you touch that you can't uproot it as balanced equally like Redwoods in Northern California. 

 

Your balance is something a child in a gymnastics class can do, which comes more from conditioning rather than the internal skill you seek to demonstrate. 

[Earl Grey]

Demonstrating some of my teachers with harmony, rooting, and grounding: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The way Glenn moves shows he has harmony, rooting, and grounding even when he is not actively doing Tai Chi. 

 

David Chan here and his fa jin are one thing, but the power, rooting, harmony, and grounding are likewise at the same level as Glenn.

 

JR explains rooting and grounding for you in above videos, and Eric demonstrates balance is separate from grounding and rooting.  I am no longer associated with or endorsing Eric Randolph

 

People who scrutinize them and say they have no power are welcome to say all they want, but these teachers have won tournaments undefeated for many years and have shown many feats of power and skill that are not something the armchair master can claim.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Earl Grey

[Earl Grey]

32 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

Remember I am not standing on a flat surface rather on a slanted 2 x 4. I must move to keep my balance. The hand movements are very difficult to keep the body in balance. Please also keep in mind that I am a Tai Chi practitioner.

 

Because you edited this into your original post, I will now respond to the amended comment.

 

I have teachers and friends who can stay still on surfaces much more difficult than what you present here, whether on a boat or bricks, or even on sticks in the middle of a lake. They can remain perfectly still and even have a glass of water on both shoulders and the crown of their heads. 

 

Being a Tai Chi practitioner has nothing to do with your lack of skill--the people who do what I just described also do Tai Chi and have good lineage and teachers. 

[ReturnDragon]

34 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Your balance is something a child in a gymnastics class can do, which comes more from conditioning rather than the internal skill you seek to demonstrate. 

I grant you. It may seem like something a child in a gymnastics class can do. However, the foot has to be completely flat on the ground.
It is impossible not to move the body to stay in balance. I see the your instructor in the red shirt is fighting to keep his balance on the bricks too. He is struggling not any different than I do. After he was kicked two times, his right leg fell off the brick.

Please don't get me wrong that I am getting back at you. What I am saying is impossible not to move the legs and struggle to stay in balance on an object. Especially, the foot was not completely on the flat surface.

[Earl Grey]

7 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

I grant you. It may seem like something a child in a gymnastics class can do. However, the foot has to be completely flat on the ground.

 

I've seen it on the balancing beams, and did them myself when I was 4. 

 

Zhan Zhuang and its many postures and variants do not always require a completely flat foot on the floor. As you already claimed to be self-taught from books and no teachers, you lack this awareness.

 

7 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

It is impossible not to move the body to stay in balance.

 

Not impossible. Highly improbable, but still possible, and I have seen other teachers like my Shigong do it. 

 

7 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

I see the your instructor in the red shirt is fighting to keep his balance on the bricks too. He is struggling not any different than I do. After he was kicked two times, his right leg fell off the brick.

 

You seem to overlook the fact he maintained form and the student kicking him had to really try hard to knock him off, and the way you struggle to balance in your video shows that if you were pushed that you would struggle a bit, while Eric is playing and is ready to go right back into it. 

 

It is also worth noting that he is teaching and demoing this to students. If he were just doing it himself, that would be a different story. As you can see, at the 4:00 mark, he is still able to absorb several kicks before he goes down. 

 

Having been with him too, when he isn't on bricks like here, no one can uproot him, no grappler can take him down. The same with all above teachers, and Glenn, by the way, is a narc detective, so he has to have skills that work, otherwise, it is a matter of living or dying when chasing perps. 

 

7 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

Please don't get me wrong that I am getting back at you.

 

You wouldn't be able to get back at me no matter how much you tried with the difference in skill here.

 

7 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

What I am saying is impossible not to move the legs and struggle to stay in balance on an object.

 

See my above response.

 

7 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

Especially, the foot was not completely on the flat surface.

 

See my above response. 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Earl Grey

[ReturnDragon]

16 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Being a Tai Chi practitioner has nothing to do with your lack of skill--the people who do what I just described also do Tai Chi and have good lineage and teachers. 

What I am trying to say was, a Tai Chi practitioner should be capable to move the hands and stay in balance. It is because when the hands move the weight of the body shifts to a different direction. Therefore, the body must move slightly to counteract the weight that was shifted.

[Earl Grey]

8 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

What I am trying to say was, a Tai Chi practitioner should be capable to move the hands and stay in balance. It is because when the hands move the weight of the body shifts to a different direction. Therefore, the body must move slightly to counteract the weight that was shifted.

 

It's easier to use the hands to stay in balance. Remaining static in a difficult position like on bricks or on a boat is something else.

 

You're still misdirecting and trying to argue balance shows you have skill, but you don't even have good balance there. You also don't show any harmony, rooting, or grounding.

 

I don't know your record of how long you can remain in Chen Bao, but all above teachers have done no less than 3.5 hours without moving and as long as 5 or more hours, one of them even standing all day sunrise to sunset. 

 

Based on what you are saying, your understanding is absent, your visual test here shows you don't have any skill, and likely easy to speculate than physical contact with you wouldn't offer any opportunity for improving my skill at all, aside from restraint against you like I had to demonstrate before to others who talked big and couldn't put their money where their mouths were when tested. 

 

If you truly believe you have skill, as it appears you are in North America, feel free to contact any of my teachers to be challenged, but you won't be tested for free and will need to offer a financial gift since they don't like to waste time nor give free lessons. Outside Toronto is my Wing Chun Sifu, Pittsburgh is where my Tai Chi Sifu and Sigong reside, and Los Angeles is where my other Tai Chi teacher lives, but unfortunately, my Xin Yi and Bagua teachers are in Manila and Sydney respectively. 

Edited February 10, 2020 by Earl Grey

[ReturnDragon]

Ok! Eral, fair enough. Thank for your time.

How would you like to talk about the other video with the sabre movements?

[Earl Grey]

3 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

Ok! Eral, fair enough. Thank for your time.

How would you like to talk about the other video with the sabre movements?

 

This video of yours: 

 

 

No harmony, no internal movement. Very mechanical as though you'd memorized the form from a book or video. No power. No rooting. No grounding. No stillness. The body is separated, as though each limb is taking turns to move rather than moving as one. 

 

No control of the sabre either.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Earl Grey

[ReturnDragon]

Thank you.
The video was six minutes but I could do it longer, you think I can last for 15 to 20 minutes? Why or why not?

Edited February 10, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[Earl Grey]

6 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

Thank you.
The video was six minutes but I could do it longer, you think I can last for 15 to 20 minutes? Why or why not?

 

Nothing to do with how long you can do it. Twenty minutes or even an hour of showing a lack of skill is not going to ever beat someone who has great skill that can be shown in a minute. 

 

I'm sorry to say, you have no internal power in any of your movements or stillness. 

 

I've invited people internationally to stand with me or touch hands, and so far, if I have met them in person after meeting them online, few can demonstrate they have what they claim to have. For my students whom I train both online and in person, they can show more power or skill in six-to-twelve months than you are showing here, as well as developing at least very basic foundation to develop internal power (foundation, not necessarily power). 

Edited February 10, 2020 by Earl Grey

[ReturnDragon]

6 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Nothing to do with how long you can do it. Twenty minutes or even an hour of showing a lack of skill is not going to ever beat someone who has great skill that can be shown in a minute. 

OK! I am not talking to beat up someone.

Let's say, do you think an ordinary person have enough energy to do it and lasted for 20 to 30 minutes or longer?

[Earl Grey]

12 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

OK! I am not talking to beat up someone.

Let's say, do you think an ordinary person have enough energy to do it and lasted for 20 to 30 minutes or longer?

 

You don't need to train to beat someone up. You really don't understand power or skill. "Beating someone" I mean here is the ability to last longer.

 

By definition, someone doing internal training is already not "normal". 

 

You are not doing internal training however. 

Edited February 10, 2020 by Earl Grey

[ReturnDragon]

27 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

That board is not sloping that much, so it is the same as standing on a flat surface.  Also, if I made pushing motions like that it would push me off the board, because I've trained to push myself and others with energy.

Hi, Starjumper
Originally, I had the board completely flat but I was having difficulty to balance on it. So I set it at an angle for me to stand on it easier. Hence, my leg muscles and my feet must work harder by spreading them with the toes toward the center. Otherwise, I would have slide off the board. That is where the footwork comes in for the rescue.

Edited February 10, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[ReturnDragon]

9 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

You don't need to train to beat someone up. You really don't understand power or skill.

 

By definition, someone doing internal training is already not "normal". 

 

You are not doing internal training however. 

You did not answer my question directly.

[Earl Grey]

Just now, ReturnDragon said:

You did not answer my question directly.

 

You are using a lot of misdirection and showing that your understanding of basic concepts is absent. 

 

There's nothing more to see here. You've just shown that in attempting to show off, you prove you really have nothing worth showing. 

 

Sorry, but you asked for critique and I gave it to you. If you were out to learn, then that would be a different story.

 

Good luck trying to make something out of what you have. 

 

Everyone else, please consult better sources rather than learning from ChiDragon or being self-taught like him through questionable books. 

[freeform]

3 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

My ZZ skill was totally from Tai Chi practice

It appears you haven’t had the pleasure of experiencing real internal arts yet. It isn’t what you think. ‘Internal skill’ isn’t developed the way you think it would be... nothing to do with balance or swordsmanship or standing on planks.

 

So you need to realise that at this stage you don’t even know what you don’t know. Meaning this whole thing is a complete mystery to you, even though you think it’s not - and what you think you know is completely wrong. 
 

The whole point of the ‘internal’ arts is that they work very much the opposite way that external arts work. And how they work is hidden.

 

the opportunity here is to be directed to a real internal arts teacher. Take the opportunity if you’re interested in these arts!
 

Then you’ll know how they work and develop real skill - these arts are amazing - but you need to have the humility and insight to firstly find the real stuff and then to train with a beginners mind.

[ReturnDragon]

Never mind. I think this is the wrong place to discuss about sabre movement.

Edited February 11, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[Nungali]

Well, I watched it ... the first thing you did was LOOSE your balance and not even get up on the board  !

 

2nd attempt was better   

 

 

If you , or anyone else   wants to test their balance , try this    (and yes ,  the system I practice does do a lot of 'one legged stuff '  (Chinto form has an interesting application of it  * )  ;

 

Stand straight , both arms extended out to the side  horizontally and straight .   Now, roll your head around in a big circle .   Okay ?

 

Now do that standing on one foot .

 

Get back to me and tell me  how you went  .

 

 

*    turn kick and punch on one leg  @ 0.50  .

 

 

 

( except it isnt 'Seito' style  )

 

 

and why  fight on one leg anyway ?        (now there is a rave !  )

[Walker]

6 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

... a lot of misdirection... understanding of basic concepts is absent. 

 

Everyone else, please consult better sources rather than learning from ChiDragon or being self-taught like him through questionable books. 

 

4 hours ago, freeform said:

It appears you haven’t had the pleasure of experiencing real internal arts yet. It isn’t what you think. ‘Internal skill’ isn’t developed the way you think it would be... nothing to do with balance or swordsmanship or standing on planks.

 

So you need to realise that at this stage you don’t even know what you don’t know. Meaning this whole thing is a complete mystery to you, even though you think it’s not - and what you think you know is completely wrong. 
 

The whole point of the ‘internal’ arts is that they work very much the opposite way that external arts work. And how they work is hidden.

 

the opportunity here is to be directed to a real internal arts teacher. Take the opportunity if you’re interested in these arts!
 

Then you’ll know how they work and develop real skill - these arts are amazing - but you need to have the humility and insight to firstly find the real stuff and then to train with a beginners mind.

 

The above is valuable advice from two experienced practitioners with living teachers. It bears repeating.

 

Being an autodidact does not really work in these arts.

 

Daoists will say that it is never too late to start, even if one is in one's 70s, 80s, or even older. 

 

But as Freeform said, "you need to have the humility and insight to firstly find the real stuff and then to train with a beginners mind."