Weather Magick

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, Lord Josh Allen said:

Hi, interesting. I do agree with what you say about the memories. Personally, I feel one should not attempt to "forget" those "negative" experiences but instead create an agreement with them. I acknowledge that I have them but I don't let them disempower me, think of it as an agreement with one's regrets, traumas, emotional suffering. It cannot be undone but it can be laid to rest. I'm not a Master of this by any means, I just experiment and wander mostly for my own inner benefit. Great pictures. I also rush out to collect various creations of nature. I keep jars of stormwater around the house. You might be interested in an exercise I'm currently doing, known as "Eating Vapor" It is traditionally performed at sunrise, a time when Yin energy gives rise to Yang. Mists, fog and clouds carry with them vital energies that can be beneficial for absorption, one can "energetically eat" fog to purify/heal/activate parts of the body. Mist that travels through pine forests and pine trees is known to be very auspicious.  As it passes through the trees, it becomes enhanced or charged with more qi. I spend about 35 minutes every morning gathering power from the fog. Here in Britain, especially in Winter, it is always foggy. I live in a rural area so the pollution here is almost nonexistent. 

 

Not all mist and fog are safe to absorb though. One should not meditate in a swamp area, this energy is considered toxic and it can cause stagnation of qi within the channels and meridians. Moisture builds up in the lungs and this may result in sickness. Generally speaking, if you see lofty fog, rising high in the sky, if it looks light and ethereal, it is safe. If you see heavy, dark, slow-moving fog which is low on the ground, it should be avoided. Each weather type can be broken up into Yin and Yang categories, Yin is not inherently inauspicious and Yang is not inherently auspicious, they only become so when directly compared. So, an example of Yin wind would be a wind that is strong, intense, freezing cold, unsettling, this type of wind drains qi from a physical landscape which means it could also drain you. Yang wind is warm, gentle, quiet and refreshing. It often blows over oceans and large bodies of water, it has qualities of healing and dispelling of negative spirits. I consecrate a lot of my own talismans by invoking the powers of a certain direction of wind, I then allow the wind to blow over the object to turn it into a ritual tool. 

 

It isn't that difficult, even for a novice. I try to explain it in ways people will understand. 

 

Yes !  I am interested in 'eating  vapour '   .   What you describe is an important aspect  in  'Agricultural Alchemy'   and making and  dispersing soil and atmospheric preparations and treatments  .  I worked with that for a few years  . ( I was the preparations  maker  for Biodynamic Agriculture Australia  for a while . )   Eg   prep 501 (made from crushed quartz crystal rods)  is ideally spreyed into the atmosphere , in the morning, with rising mist . 

 

Regarding swamps   ( wetlands ??? )   , it gets a bit 'weird'    for that prep ,  its a fresh trimmed cows head, brain removed and skull stuffed with oak bark and left in a swamp for a year  .   Retrieving the preparation is an 'adventure' .  

 

Also, Live in a subtropical rainforest , opposite my place , across the river is a steep escarpment with waterfalls . At times the rising mist is phenomenal -  it streams up out the trees , some places pump it out  while a few metres over nothing .   Trees breath  ,  forest compost gasses   

 

But then the grey mist drops at times  , when it starts curling over the top of the escarpment  and gradually descending   .....   myurk  ....     

Edited February 16, 2020 by Nungali

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I like the idea of using the outside (weather) to work on the inside (personal psychology).  The idea that our environment reflects our internal state is all over literature: it was a dark and stormy night...

 

I alread said this a while back , but now, it might be appropriate again

 

XGF was a great singer and songwriter  , one time she is singing me a new song and  and part of was like

 

" When I am sad it rains, and when I am happy the sun shines " - afterwards  I asked her if she meant   '  the rain makes me sad and the sun shine makes me happy ' ?  and she goes  " No. "

 

and I "  What, your moods dictate OUR weather ?"

 

" Yes, "     

 

She was like that  ... a little  'self -centred '       

 

 

  or  ......   Weather magick ? 

[Earl Grey]

Just now, Nungali said:

 

I alread said this a while back , but now, it might be appropriate again

 

XGF was a great singer and songwriter  , one time she is singing me a new song and  and part of was like

 

" When I am sad it rains, and when I am happy the sun shines " - afterwards  I asked her if she meant   '  the rain makes me sad and the sun shine makes me happy ' ?  and she goes  " No. "

 

and I "  What, your moods dictate OUR weather ?"

 

" Yes, "     

 

She was like that  ... a little  'self -centred '       

 

 

  or  ......   Weather magick ? 

 

 

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, flowing hands said:

 I don't mean to be horrible, but I thought as much. I have been a traditional Dao shaman for nearly forty years. I was accepted by the immortals masters in a temple in Malaysia and have practiced under their tutelage since. One thing that separates me from others is the fact that I am physically possessed by the spirit master who has taught me all sorts of things including award winning martial arts. Now if you really want to alter the weather and I have, you have to have real contact with the Immortals in heaven otherwise both the weather and the immortals will ignore you. Your altar should face the East, that is the Dao heaven, the south is Quan Yin and the west is Buddha. In this video, you will see the inside of a small temple of the sect, me practicing martial arts back in the 90's and me begging the immortal master to come and draw the traditional Fa Fu and Fa Shui. I am actually wearing a robe of the sect. I have worn it three times in forty years!

 

 

 

 

Perhaps you could help me with question regarding your staff form ?   I practice several    long staff forms from an Okinawan tradition. Some I have unusual movements , whose applications have taken me a few years to work out  but there a few moves that still seem unexplained .

 

So my question to you is  - why do   you   often raise one leg up (   knee high , lower leg  vertical )   when striking and thrusting  ?

[Walker]

On 2/13/2020 at 9:18 AM, ralis said:

Is this you?

 

 

 

Hi Josh,

 

I took the time to listen to your story from start to finish. I also read everything else you wrote in this thread. I appreciate your good humor and candor. I think there are some things that need to be said, though. 

 

I am glad that you freely admit to not having availed yourself of the opportunity to seek out living Daoist teachers, to ask them to teach you, and to possibly put their teachings into practice. I hope you will understand, however, that if you have not done these things that it is not really accurate to call yourself a Daoist. 

 

Regardless of whether one uses "Daoism" to refer to 道家 or 道教 (and regardless of what one thinks the relationship between those two words is), it is hard to deny that this is not a convert seeking tradition. Furthermore, entry into the "doors" of Daoism has always been done through teachers, and entry is not an ambiguous process. If one has established a teacher-student or teacher-disciple relationship with an elder in Daoism, this is generally quite a formal thing. Given your interest in rituals and ceremonies, it probably should not surprise you that entry into Daoism more often than not involves a rite--perhaps a simple one, perhaps a complex one, but always significant one.

 

Using analogies that might make a bit of sense to a person who has only lived in the western cultural milieu, this is a bit like joining Judaism. Judaism does not offer mass conversions like some Christian churches do, nor does it allow you to join by doing something as simple as some schools of Islam require--merely affirming that you have full faith in the "Five Pillars of Islam." In a close friend's synagogue, his rabbi typically turns away people who wish to become Jews at least three times before he will even consider whether or not he would accept them as converts. If (and this is very rare) the person persists in seeking to become a Jew and the rabbi decides to convert the person, conversion is not a simple matter like a baptism. It requires a significant period of study followed by ritualized formal acceptance. My good friend's wife went through this process and it took a few years to go from start to finish. While Daoism is very different from Judaism and (like Judaism and most other ancient traditions) has numerous disparate "sects," a long period of interaction between student and teacher before formal initiation into Daoism is common to all of those schools, unless they have become corrupted (as with the many dubious places in China that will sell you Zhengyi registers and the like). 

 

The Judaism-Daoism analogy only goes so far though, because Judaism is a religion with a small group of clergy and large group of laity, whereas Daoism, while it has always served communities who of course "believe" in the Daoists, does not really have such thing a "flock" of "believers." In this way Daoism is very unlike Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. There are lay Daoists, but even they go through rituals and traditionally spend a significant amount of time observing and being observed by their teachers (this includes study and practice, too) before there is a formal initiation.

 

Now, it is interesting that you have studied some books about Daoist magic and, possibly, have developed some abilities on that basis (frankly, the one video of your weather magic that I watched looked a lot more like some pretty low-brow editing tricks, cutting between images of you pacing around with a sword and scenes of roiling clouds... but... it's not impossible that you've figured something out...).

 

Well, does developing abilities on the basis of a book that is associated with Daoism make one a Daoist?

 

No.

 

Here's another analogy: a fellow could study karate manuals for several years and develop his own ways of training on the basis of those manuals, much as you said that you studied weather magic books and developed your own rituals. The guy who studied karate manuals, if he trained hard enough, might even become better at fighting than most people, even though he never met a single actual karate master. So, he could end up winning a few real fights, thanks to having thrown hundreds of thousands of practice punches he learned from the manual. But would that make him a real student of karate? Not really. There is much more to karate than one can be captured in books, and those things need to be encountered in person, in a dojo or wherever a master teaches, with a real sensei. Otherwise, all we're talking about a novel form of fighting that was based on a book, not karate itself.

 

This problem is only the tip of the iceberg, though.

 

I understand from your video that since you were in your boyhood or early teens a voice has been speaking to you, it tells you that it is Zhuge Liang, it has taught you some things and directed you to do certain things, and you believe it is Zhuge Liang. That is an interesting claim, and not that far from the sort of thing that one hears quite often if one spends time around Daoist teachers. 

 

Daoism has much to say about "teachers" of the sort you say you have. In a nutshell, usually what Daoist teachers offer when stories like this come along is a burst bubble. Certainly there are many people on earth who hear a voice or voices like you did/do. Daoism recognizes that sometimes when this happens, the person is lying, delusional, or has gone mad. But sometimes there really is a voice coming from some kind of a disembodied "life form." Here are some of the many possible reasons Daoist teachers and friends of mine have discussed:

 

• The person is being helped be the ghost of a dead cultivator who advanced far enough in life to become something of a powerful and neutral or benevolent ghost, which finds itself "trapped" in an intermediate state, unable to advance without obtaining a new body, and lacking the merit required to obtain one. This being therefore finds an appropriate human or humans to help, doing good deeds such as helping healers to heal their patients or helping fortune tellers to give more accurate readings. Sometimes the human knows he or she is being helped (as when a voice can be heard), and sometimes the human is not clear about this, and is just good at something without knowing why; however, those with open third eyes may see what is really happening. This is not a terrible situation to be in, but it becomes a major pitfall when the human involved mistakes this sort of relationship for actually "cultivating the Dao," and/or becomes attached to the benefits such a relationship creates, and/or becomes drunk on this relationship and unwittingly steps onto the path of a fraud. 
• The person is being pranked by a mischievous ghost who is getting thrills of some sort from this relationship.
• The person has a deep desire for something like power, influence, fame, uniqueness, escape, or ability (including a benevolent ability like healing) and unwittingly invites a disembodied being into his/her life and develops a symbiotic relationship with that being (this relationship could have started in a previous life and may be the fault of family rather than individual karma). 
• Illness, drug abuse, weak constitution, mental illness/disturbance, being unlucky and being at the wrong place at the wrong time, black magic, or occult dabbling unwittingly invites a disembodied being into his/her life and develops a symbiotic relationship with that being (this relationship could have started in a previous life and may be the fault of family family rather than individual karma). 
• The person is being used by a malevolent ghost with some power or a demon in order to further that being's agenda on earth. That powerful ghost or demon may have the ability to masquerade as a seemingly-benevolent figure and may be able to grant quite a bit of power, knowledge, and special abilities to the recipient of its help. In such a situation the price that is paid in the end by the human who is used is said to be extremely high. 
• The person is actually being guided by a highly realized being, such as an immortal, buddha, or bodhisattva. This is profoundly rare. It is generally not safe to assume that one has been blessed in such a way. I do not even know if Zhuge Liang, whatever his accomplishments in the earthly realm actually were (remember that the Romance of the Three Kingdoms is a novel that scholars say lumped various legends and stories into Zhuge Liang character's story), is recognized as having reached immortality. This is a question that a quite highly achieved master might address. But you're likely to have to do a lot of wandering and seeking before you encounter anybody capable of lending insight into these matters, and those with such insights tend to divulge minimal information and instead give their students simple instructions and push them towards sobriety and simplicity... 

With the above, I hope to relay the sense that, way more often than not, if one goes to a real Daoist master and says "I am hearing a voice that teaches me things, I think it might be this-or-that highly realized being," the Daoist master does not reply with, "why, you're right!" And thank goodness for this! The consequences for the above scenarios can range all the way from simple wasted time that might've been used on actual cultivation, all the way up to truly hellish outcomes. If one has a deep affinity for Daoism and wishes to learn what it has to teach, then one may have the opportunity of avoiding many pitfalls. But this, of course, requires actually going and looking for a teacher, not declaring oneself to be a Daoist without having ever met a master, much less been taught and initiated into a school or lineage. 

 

Another major issue you raise with what you have shared here relates to the possible consequences of playing with magic without proper training, as you are likely doing (unless you are extremely blessed and Zhuge Liang is a Daoist immortal and is really teaching you). Daoist teachers have many warnings about such things. They include:

 

• The dangers of unintended spiritual consequences, for performing magic that influences beings who one is not qualified to influence and draws their ire, resulting in a rebuke or rebukes.
• The dangers of exhausting one's three treasures of jing, qi, and shen as well as one's ling by engaging in magic, which likely draws upon these resources quite heavily; without having been trained in the ways of replenishing and building these resources, one undermines one's ming and gradually deadens one's spirit.
• The dangers of karmic consequences. For example, I mentioned your posts on the phone to an English friend and he laughed aloud, joking of course, saying that if you've caused the flooding and storm England has had in recent years, then there will be hell to pay. He spoke in jest, but he points towards something Daoists consider real. 
• The dangers of receiving  a heavenly rebuke and/or heavy negative karma if in fact you have stumbled upon real teachings and, because of your YouTube activities and the like, they fall into the hands of people who misuse them. 

Regarding the first four in that list above (and some of the points in the list higher up), Daoists will add the additional warning that one often does not know what one "has coming" until one reaches a later stage in life, when the natural process of aging leaves you with weak, deficient qi. In a young or middle-aged person, naturally strong qi provides a certain amount of defense for a human being, which can keep ghosts and weaker spirits from being able to exact revenge, and which masks the cumulative effects of excessively using one's three treasures to fiddle around with magic. After a serious illness or simply after becoming old, one's qi is no longer able to keep the consequences at bay, and ill fortune befalls a person. One of the sad results for these things is dying an unfortunate, tormented death. Then there are of course warnings about what comes after that tormented death. Chinese Daoists I have known usually call this "不得善終," or "not meeting a good end." I have been sternly warned about some people who were trying to do good in life but were not trained properly or unwittingly violated spiritual principles (including acupuncturists and exorcists) and died terrible deaths as a result, when their qi was used up and could no longer protect them. 

 

I cannot diagnose your situation. I simply lack the ability. But I strongly recommend that if you have a strong affinity for Daoism you consider whether or not it would serve you to find a highly experienced, wise, capable teacher who could help you sort through your unique experiences, possibly guide you in viewing them through the lens and in the context of Daoist teachings (if you believe you have a strong affinity for Daoism), and possibly guide you in your cultivation henceforth, if you decide to become a Daoist and have the opportunity to do so.

 

I have two other things to bring to your attention.

 

First, it is cool that you embrace eccentricity. I'm not sorry for clowning you (sorry, man, might just be my personal baggage but anybody who needs the world to know he lives like a Cash Money Millionaire has to get pfffffffffft'ed at... maybe I should work on that, but I'm just not ready, I'll work on it when I'm rich ) but I am sorry to hear that you've faced actual violence simply because of how you dress. Evidently English Eccentricity is a time-honored tradition unto itself, and if you've found a niche you're happy in, I am happy for you. I hope you can occupy this niche in safety and among friends who understand you. 

 

That said, your eccentricity strikes me as encompassing quite a bit of cultural appropriation, even if that appropriation has at its base a sincere interest in Daoism and/or Chinese culture. I suggest considering whether your "I do whatever I want, I don't care what the world thinks, you can judge me as much as you like but I'm just gonna do my thing" attitude does not contain elements that actually disrespect the very tradition you're enamored with and claiming to be a member of. "Tuesday Lobsang Rampa" aka Cyril Hoskin may have been an English Eccentric and a very nice guy who sincerely believed that he was occupied by a Tibetan master's soul, but he ultimately did not help those who were looking for authentic Tibetan Buddhist teachings. He also wasted time writing fiction books that he might have better used actually learning Buddhism, although in his day opportunities were much rarer than they are now. (Also, as an aside, returning to the warnings about beings occupying bodies of people, you might want to look at that link and take note of a similarity in the circumstances you narrate on YouTube--including deep dissatisfaction in life--and aspects of Cyril Hoskin's story, which, if not just imagination, sounds like possession).

 

If what I'm saying doesn't make sense, then I ask, would you not find it a bit off if a neighbor of yours started to declare he was a Jewish rabbi because he had a voice that claimed to be an ancient Israeli magician and military strategist speaking to him? Or a Shotokan karate black belt because he did the punches and kicks in a karate book and managed to win some fights?

 

The other comment relates to your statement to Flowing Hands that you have no "pai" or lineage." There is something a bit disingenuous to me in that response, as in fact you end your YouTube monologue by talking about how you have started some kind of institution to glorify the spirit of Zhuge Liang and his teachings. Now, I would not call that a Daoist school for reasons that should be clear, but I think you need to admit that you are starting something that aspires to be one. I would call it a "folk cult devoted to Zhuge Liang" (I use "cult" in the neutral sense for now). Paraphrasing, you say in your video that you are not establishing this organization for yourself, but entirely for the glory of Zhuge Liang. And that may be the case, but time will tell. Few religious groups that go awry are started by founders who don't claim to be starting their groups for the "greater glory." In any event, as far as I can tell you do have a "pai"--the one you yourself founded.

 

I guess there is a small-but-real possibility that everything you are involved with is exactly what you say it is and is a wondrous example of a Daoist immortal who has found a worthy disciple on earth who is on the cusp of doing wonderful things for humanity. But if there is any chance that is not what is happening, I hope people who are interested in your claims will return to the first bullet list above and ask what kind of spirit needs a young human to help him establish a cult on earth.

 

All of these things (aside from cultural appropriation) reflect issues Daoist teachers and friends have discussed with me in seriousness over the years. I hope you will give them some thought. 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Walker

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Walker,

 

Thanks for writing such a clear and intelligent discussion of the issues.

 

ZYD

[flowing hands]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Perhaps you could help me with question regarding your staff form ?   I practice several    long staff forms from an Okinawan tradition. Some I have unusual movements , whose applications have taken me a few years to work out  but there a few moves that still seem unexplained .

 

So my question to you is  - why do   you   often raise one leg up (   knee high , lower leg  vertical )   when striking and thrusting  ?

 

Yes quite simple answers really, when generating force and speed from a low point, in this case the end of the cudgel, to bring the leg up at the same time adds to the generating force and the leg protects the lower groin and other leg. When doing this it is a specific strike, short and quick. This is why the foot is pointed down also. If a kick or weapon was to strike from below and catch a foot that was vertical, it can knock you over, for it has a surface to strike. When doing this one has developed the ability to stand on one leg and be almost immovable. Here I was just doing some bits of forms Most of the forms I learned are very long; 180 moves. Some quite exhausting.

[Goku76]

Hey Lord Josh Allen welcome to the site I haven't visited in a while can you please elaborate on the type of training you do and maybe teach us some weather magick, like how to make it snow plausibly. Honestly I'm tired of the no snow winter we have been having.

 

P.S Earl grey is probably gonna laugh at me for asking this  

Edited February 16, 2020 by Goku76

[Lord Josh Allen]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

21

10 hours ago, Walker said:

 

Hi Josh,

 

I took the time to listen to your story from start to finish. I also read everything else you wrote in this thread. I appreciate your good humor and candor. I think there are some things that need to be said, though. 

 

I am glad that you freely admit to not having availed yourself of the opportunity to seek out living Daoist teachers, to ask them to teach you, and to possibly put their teachings into practice. I hope you will understand, however, that if you have not done these things that it is not really accurate to call yourself a Daoist. 

 

Regardless of whether one uses "Daoism" to refer to 道家 or 道教 (and regardless of what one thinks the relationship between those two words is), it is hard to deny that this is not a convert seeking tradition. Furthermore, entry into the "doors" of Daoism has always been done through teachers, and entry is not an ambiguous process. If one has established a teacher-student or teacher-disciple relationship with an elder in Daoism, this is generally quite a formal thing. Given your interest in rituals and ceremonies, it probably should not surprise you that entry into Daoism more often than not involves a rite--perhaps a simple one, perhaps a complex one, but always significant one.

 

Using analogies that might make a bit of sense to a person who has only lived in the western cultural milieu, this is a bit like joining Judaism. Judaism does not offer mass conversions like some Christian churches do, nor does it allow you to join by doing something as simple as some schools of Islam require--merely affirming that you have full faith in the "Five Pillars of Islam." In a close friend's synagogue, his rabbi typically turns away people who wish to become Jews at least three times before he will even consider whether or not he would accept them as converts. If (and this is very rare) the person persists in seeking to become a Jew and the rabbi decides to convert the person, conversion is not a simple matter like a baptism. It requires a significant period of study followed by ritualized formal acceptance. My good friend's wife went through this process and it took a few years to go from start to finish. While Daoism is very different from Judaism and (like Judaism and most other ancient traditions) has numerous disparate "sects," a long period of interaction between student and teacher before formal initiation into Daoism is common to all of those schools, unless they have become corrupted (as with the many dubious places in China that will sell you Zhengyi registers and the like). 

 

The Judaism-Daoism analogy only goes so far though, because Judaism is a religion with a small group of clergy and large group of laity, whereas Daoism, while it has always served communities who of course "believe" in the Daoists, does not really have such thing a "flock" of "believers." In this way Daoism is very unlike Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. There are lay Daoists, but even they go through rituals and traditionally spend a significant amount of time observing and being observed by their teachers (this includes study and practice, too) before there is a formal initiation.

 

Now, it is interesting that you have studied some books about Daoist magic and, possibly, have developed some abilities on that basis (frankly, the one video of your weather magic that I watched looked a lot more like some pretty low-brow editing tricks, cutting between images of you pacing around with a sword and scenes of roiling clouds... but... it's not impossible that you've figured something out...).

 

Well, does developing abilities on the basis of a book that is associated with Daoism make one a Daoist?

 

No.

 

Here's another analogy: a fellow could study karate manuals for several years and develop his own ways of training on the basis of those manuals, much as you said that you studied weather magic books and developed your own rituals. The guy who studied karate manuals, if he trained hard enough, might even become better at fighting than most people, even though he never met a single actual karate master. So, he could end up winning a few real fights, thanks to having thrown hundreds of thousands of practice punches he learned from the manual. But would that make him a real student of karate? Not really. There is much more to karate than one can be captured in books, and those things need to be encountered in person, in a dojo or wherever a master teaches, with a real sensei. Otherwise, all we're talking about a novel form of fighting that was based on a book, not karate itself.

 

This problem is only the tip of the iceberg, though.

 

I understand from your video that since you were in your boyhood or early teens a voice has been speaking to you, it tells you that it is Zhuge Liang, it has taught you some things and directed you to do certain things, and you believe it is Zhuge Liang. That is an interesting claim, and not that far from the sort of thing that one hears quite often if one spends time around Daoist teachers. 

 

Daoism has much to say about "teachers" of the sort you say you have. In a nutshell, usually what Daoist teachers offer when stories like this come along is a burst bubble. Certainly there are many people on earth who hear a voice or voices like you did/do. Daoism recognizes that sometimes when this happens, the person is lying, delusional, or has gone mad. But sometimes there really is a voice coming from some kind of a disembodied "life form." Here are some of the many possible reasons Daoist teachers and friends of mine have discussed:

 

• The person is being helped be the ghost of a dead cultivator who advanced far enough in life to become something of a powerful and neutral or benevolent ghost, which finds itself "trapped" in an intermediate state, unable to advance without obtaining a new body, and lacking the merit required to obtain one. This being therefore finds an appropriate human or humans to help, doing good deeds such as helping healers to heal their patients or helping fortune tellers to give more accurate readings. Sometimes the human knows he or she is being helped (as when a voice can be heard), and sometimes the human is not clear about this, and is just good at something without knowing why; however, those with open third eyes may see what is really happening. This is not a terrible situation to be in, but it becomes a major pitfall when the human involved mistakes this sort of relationship for actually "cultivating the Dao," and/or becomes attached to the benefits such a relationship creates, and/or becomes drunk on this relationship and unwittingly steps onto the path of a fraud. 
• The person is being pranked by a mischievous ghost who is getting thrills of some sort from this relationship.
• The person has a deep desire for something like power, influence, fame, uniqueness, escape, or ability (including a benevolent ability like healing) and unwittingly invites a disembodied being into his/her life and develops a symbiotic relationship with that being (this relationship could have started in a previous life and may be the fault of family rather than individual karma). 
• Illness, drug abuse, weak constitution, mental illness/disturbance, being unlucky and being at the wrong place at the wrong time, black magic, or occult dabbling unwittingly invites a disembodied being into his/her life and develops a symbiotic relationship with that being (this relationship could have started in a previous life and may be the fault of family family rather than individual karma). 
• The person is being used by a malevolent ghost with some power or a demon in order to further that being's agenda on earth. That powerful ghost or demon may have the ability to masquerade as a seemingly-benevolent figure and may be able to grant quite a bit of power, knowledge, and special abilities to the recipient of its help. In such a situation the price that is paid in the end by the human who is used is said to be extremely high. 
• The person is actually being guided by a highly realized being, such as an immortal, buddha, or bodhisattva. This is profoundly rare. It is generally not safe to assume that one has been blessed in such a way. I do not even know if Zhuge Liang, whatever his accomplishments in the earthly realm actually were (remember that the Romance of the Three Kingdoms is a novel that scholars say lumped various legends and stories into Zhuge Liang character's story), is recognized as having reached immortality. This is a question that a quite highly achieved master might address. But you're likely to have to do a lot of wandering and seeking before you encounter anybody capable of lending insight into these matters, and those with such insights tend to divulge minimal information and instead give their students simple instructions and push them towards sobriety and simplicity... 

With the above, I hope to relay the sense that, way more often than not, if one goes to a real Daoist master and says "I am hearing a voice that teaches me things, I think it might be this-or-that highly realized being," the Daoist master does not reply with, "why, you're right!" And thank goodness for this! The consequences for the above scenarios can range all the way from simple wasted time that might've been used on actual cultivation, all the way up to truly hellish outcomes. If one has a deep affinity for Daoism and wishes to learn what it has to teach, then one may have the opportunity of avoiding many pitfalls. But this, of course, requires actually going and looking for a teacher, not declaring oneself to be a Daoist without having ever met a master, much less been taught and initiated into a school or lineage. 

 

Another major issue you raise with what you have shared here relates to the possible consequences of playing with magic without proper training, as you are likely doing (unless you are extremely blessed and Zhuge Liang is a Daoist immortal and is really teaching you). Daoist teachers have many warnings about such things. They include:

 

• The dangers of unintended spiritual consequences, for performing magic that influences beings who one is not qualified to influence and draws their ire, resulting in a rebuke or rebukes.
• The dangers of exhausting one's three treasures of jing, qi, and shen as well as one's ling by engaging in magic, which likely draws upon these resources quite heavily; without having been trained in the ways of replenishing and building these resources, one undermines one's ming and gradually deadens one's spirit.
• The dangers of karmic consequences. For example, I mentioned your posts on the phone to an English friend and he laughed aloud, joking of course, saying that if you've caused the flooding and storm England has had in recent years, then there will be hell to pay. He spoke in jest, but he points towards something Daoists consider real. 
• The dangers of receiving  a heavenly rebuke and/or heavy negative karma if in fact you have stumbled upon real teachings and, because of your YouTube activities and the like, they fall into the hands of people who misuse them. 

Regarding the first four in that list above (and some of the points in the list higher up), Daoists will add the additional warning that one often does not know what one "has coming" until one reaches a later stage in life, when the natural process of aging leaves you with weak, deficient qi. In a young or middle-aged person, naturally strong qi provides a certain amount of defense for a human being, which can keep ghosts and weaker spirits from being able to exact revenge, and which masks the cumulative effects of excessively using one's three treasures to fiddle around with magic. After a serious illness or simply after becoming old, one's qi is no longer able to keep the consequences at bay, and ill fortune befalls a person. One of the sad results for these things is dying an unfortunate, tormented death. Then there are of course warnings about what comes after that tormented death. Chinese Daoists I have known usually call this "不得善終," or "not meeting a good end." I have been sternly warned about some people who were trying to do good in life but were not trained properly or unwittingly violated spiritual principles (including acupuncturists and exorcists) and died terrible deaths as a result, when their qi was used up and could no longer protect them. 

 

I cannot diagnose your situation. I simply lack the ability. But I strongly recommend that if you have a strong affinity for Daoism you consider whether or not it would serve you to find a highly experienced, wise, capable teacher who could help you sort through your unique experiences, possibly guide you in viewing them through the lens and in the context of Daoist teachings (if you believe you have a strong affinity for Daoism), and possibly guide you in your cultivation henceforth, if you decide to become a Daoist and have the opportunity to do so.

 

I have two other things to bring to your attention.

 

First, it is cool that you embrace eccentricity. I'm not sorry for clowning you (sorry, man, might just be my personal baggage but anybody who needs the world to know he lives like a Cash Money Millionaire has to get pfffffffffft'ed at... maybe I should work on that, but I'm just not ready, I'll work on it when I'm rich ) but I am sorry to hear that you've faced actual violence simply because of how you dress. Evidently English Eccentricity is a time-honored tradition unto itself, and if you've found a niche you're happy in, I am happy for you. I hope you can occupy this niche in safety and among friends who understand you. 

 

That said, your eccentricity strikes me as encompassing quite a bit of cultural appropriation, even if that appropriation has at its base a sincere interest in Daoism and/or Chinese culture. I suggest considering whether your "I do whatever I want, I don't care what the world thinks, you can judge me as much as you like but I'm just gonna do my thing" attitude does not contain elements that actually disrespect the very tradition you're enamored with and claiming to be a member of. "Tuesday Lobsang Rampa" aka Cyril Hoskin may have been an English Eccentric and a very nice guy who sincerely believed that he was occupied by a Tibetan master's soul, but he ultimately did not help those who were looking for authentic Tibetan Buddhist teachings. He also wasted time writing fiction books that he might have better used actually learning Buddhism, although in his day opportunities were much rarer than they are now. (Also, as an aside, returning to the warnings about beings occupying bodies of people, you might want to look at that link and take note of a similarity in the circumstances you narrate on YouTube--including deep dissatisfaction in life--and aspects of Cyril Hoskin's story, which, if not just imagination, sounds like possession).

 

If what I'm saying doesn't make sense, then I ask, would you not find it a bit off if a neighbor of yours started to declare he was a Jewish rabbi because he had a voice that claimed to be an ancient Israeli magician and military strategist speaking to him? Or a Shotokan karate black belt because he did the punches and kicks in a karate book and managed to win some fights?

 

The other comment relates to your statement to Flowing Hands that you have no "pai" or lineage." There is something a bit disingenuous to me in that response, as in fact you end your YouTube monologue by talking about how you have started some kind of institution to glorify the spirit of Zhuge Liang and his teachings. Now, I would not call that a Daoist school for reasons that should be clear, but I think you need to admit that you are starting something that aspires to be one. I would call it a "folk cult devoted to Zhuge Liang" (I use "cult" in the neutral sense for now). Paraphrasing, you say in your video that you are not establishing this organization for yourself, but entirely for the glory of Zhuge Liang. And that may be the case, but time will tell. Few religious groups that go awry are started by founders who don't claim to be starting their groups for the "greater glory." In any event, as far as I can tell you do have a "pai"--the one you yourself founded.

 

I guess there is a small-but-real possibility that everything you are involved with is exactly what you say it is and is a wondrous example of a Daoist immortal who has found a worthy disciple on earth who is on the cusp of doing wonderful things for humanity. But if there is any chance that is not what is happening, I hope people who are interested in your claims will return to the first bullet list above and ask what kind of spirit needs a young human to help him establish a cult on earth.

 

All of these things (aside from cultural appropriation) reflect issues Daoist teachers and friends have discussed with me in seriousness over the years. I hope you will give them some thought. 

Hi, there's a lot to get through here but I'll do my best. I'm not opposed to Earthly teachers, I've just never encountered any that I could learn with because my interests are obscure and niche. As soon as the right one comes along, I'll act accordingly. That being said, I do consider myself a student of Kongming (Zhuge Liang) and I have had a close relationship with him since 2007. In all the years that he has been a part of my life, I've never felt mislead, misguided or harmed by his teachings. I have certainly felt uncomfortable and apprehensive but in hindsight, I now see that as the essential growth period needed to move onto the next stage of my spiritual journey, and I believe growing pains are necessary.

 

I don't have a cult or a sect, I run fan sites for Zhuge Liang. People forget that Kongming was more than just an Occultist, he was a writer, an inventor, a diplomat, an engineer, a general, a strategist. I cover ALL avenues of his work from top to bottom. I have viewers who don't believe in the supernatural but seek to learn from Kongming's "Mastering The Art of War" book, I analyze his battle tactics on my YouTube channel from a historical point of view with no mysticism involved. Lots of Western entrepreneurs use his teachings for business today. To call it a cult is extreme because it implies there is an organization or a hierarchy of power, there isn't, its simply admiring the man's legacy, ensuring that it does not fade into obscurity. I'm not even an important piece of the puzzle, before me, there were those who loved him, after me, there will be loads more. My only hope is that I can spread that love. I help Westerners understand who Kongming is, I teach his history and his folklore, I don't profit or gain anything from it but the satisfaction of knowing I am doing what he expects of me. 

 

Our deal back in 2007 was just that. He would teach me and guide me, in return I would spread his name to everyone I would come across. I was hospitalized in 2018 with a life threatening illness, I was potentially looking at the end of my journey, so I spent time telling all of the doctors, nurses, and staff about Kongming, they were fascinated. Kongming means more to me than Taoism does. If Taoism does not accept me, that does not bother me. I don't look for acceptance from Taoists. I am learning Chinese because of him, I'm learning to play the Guqin, I carry a feather fan, I have memorized all of his written work. I cannot prove that I am speaking to Kongming, I cannot provide any evidence to the claim but I'm comfortable knowing that I'm correct. You can choose to believe me or not, it doesn't change my experience, I am not a believer, I am a knower. No disrespect to anyone on this forum but Zhuge Liang has achieved more than anyone on this entire website combined. Nobody will remember who we are almost two thousand years in the future, Kongming is eternal. 

 

I enjoy learning from others, I respect all of your knowledge, you obviously have priceless wisdom that has been obtained over many years, I appreciate it, I like to listen and absorb some of it but in my eyes, Kongmings word is final. As for the Rabbi neighbour Lol, welcome to the crazy world that I live in. I'm on BALG (Become A Living God Forum) A place for Western Left-Hand Path Occultists. I hear all kinds of stories that make mine seem tame, I'm desensitized to all of it at this point. I don't disbelieve what people tell me because I've had my fair share of paranormal experiences, if you told me that you heard a voice, I wouldn't consider you delusional or crazy or lying, I'd take it at face value because I've been there, I can relate. I read the books because I'm guided to read them, I then use the knowledge in the books out in the field, if it works then I consider it a success and yes it does work. Am I gifted? I don't think so but I am dedicated. I don't play with magick, I am very careful and considerate. I constantly provide warnings in the intros of my videos. As you say, why would Kongming's spirit need me? You've got it backwards, I need him! As I mentioned in my video, life before him was grim, after having the door opened it became bliss. I feel happy and free, in that regard, I am extremely blessed. 

 

As for the cultural appropriation, this is the first time anyone has ever said this to me. I'm friends with a lot of Chinese Three Kingdoms historians, they love it. I've had no complaints from them with the way I dress. You can't please everyone! Take care. 

 

 

 

 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Perhaps you could help me with question regarding your staff form ?   I practice several    long staff forms from an Okinawan tradition. Some I have unusual movements , whose applications have taken me a few years to work out  but there a few moves that still seem unexplained .

 

So my question to you is  - why do   you   often raise one leg up (   knee high , lower leg  vertical )   when striking and thrusting  ?

 

Besides the beautiful and expert explanation Hands already gave you i might add a little.

Single leg stances offer the effects and mechanics Hands spoke about but they also give the user two additional things: freeing up another limb for use in striking, levering or deflecting an incoming attack. Secondly albeit related that free leg can give many unexpected advantages in positioning, turning, balance, stepping and even jumping.

 

[Lord Josh Allen]

Thanks, everyone! 

[flowing hands]

8 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

 

Besides the beautiful and expert explanation Hands already gave you i might add a little.

Single leg stances offer the effects and mechanics Hands spoke about but they also give the user two additional things: freeing up another limb for use in striking, levering or deflecting an incoming attack. Secondly albeit related that free leg can give many unexpected advantages in positioning, turning, balance, stepping and even jumping.

 

 

The other reason why you may pick the leg up is to avoid a trip; there are many low spinning front and reverse spinning trip techniques, involving using the foot as a hook.

[flowing hands]

12 hours ago, Walker said:

Regarding the first four in that list above (and some of the points in the list higher up), Daoists will add the additional warning that one often does not know what one "has coming" until one reaches a later stage in life, when the natural process of aging leaves you with weak, deficient qi. In a young or middle-aged person, naturally strong qi provides a certain amount of defense for a human being, which can keep ghosts and weaker spirits from being able to exact revenge, and which masks the cumulative effects of excessively using one's three treasures to fiddle around with magic. After a serious illness or simply after becoming old, one's qi is no longer able to keep the consequences at bay, and ill fortune befalls a person. One of the sad results for these things is dying an unfortunate, tormented death. Then there are of course warnings about what comes after that tormented death. Chinese Daoists I have known usually call this "不得善終," or "not meeting a good end." I have been sternly warned about some people who were trying to do good in life but were not trained properly or unwittingly violated spiritual principles (including acupuncturists and exorcists) and died terrible deaths as a result, when their qi was used up and could no longer protect them. 

 

This why once you have been accepted by an immortal master another shaman goes into a trance and blesses you. Those marks put on your body protect you from any spirit that may come and interfere. The 'fa' that the immortal masters gives to you can be used to destroy bad spirits, heal and all sorts of things.

Edited February 16, 2020 by flowing hands

[Zhongyongdaoist]

One reason I was thankful that Walker posted as he did, was that it saved me the trouble and gives me an easy source of quotes with which I agree, such as these:

 

14 hours ago, Walker said:

The person has a deep desire for something like power, influence, fame, uniqueness, escape, or ability (including a benevolent ability like healing) and unwittingly invites a disembodied being into his/her life and develops a symbiotic relationship with that being (this relationship could have started in a previous life and may be the fault of family rather than individual karma). (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

develops a symbiotic relationship: the usual "victim" of these situations would be lucky if the relationship was actually "symbiotic", the relationship is almost always parasitic.  I like to make a financial analogy, the difference between a Mutual Fund and a Ponzi Scheme.  A mutual fund  is a symbiotic relationship it benefits both parties, on the other had a ponzi scheme is something that benefits one party to the detriment of the other or others.  A "spiritual" ponzi scheme is an energy scam, it is set up to get people to put "energy" into the system which is used by spiritual beings for their own purposes, usually bad purposes and which leave the victims of the scheme severely compromised and maybe dead.  While flourishing such a spiritual ponzi scheme may be indistinguishable from a well run mutual fund, there are certain things that make it look suspicious, like apparently high returns on investment, but it is hard to prove that it is bad and a fraud, and those caught up in it believe in it and will defend it, until its collapse and until its collapse it is useless to try to talk them out of it.  The recent Madoff scheme and its collapse if paradigmatic and is recent enough to be something memorable to almost everyone, and also easy to research.

 

14 hours ago, Walker said:

The person is being used by a malevolent ghost with some power or a demon in order to further that being's agenda on earth. That powerful ghost or demon may have the ability to masquerade as a seemingly-benevolent figure and may be able to grant quite a bit of power, knowledge, and special abilities to the recipient of its help. In such a situation the price that is paid in the end by the human who is used is said to be extremely high. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

powerful ghost or demon may have the ability to masquerade as a seemingly-benevolent figure and may be able to grant quite a bit of power, knowledge, and special abilities to the recipient of its help:  Financial ponzi schemes keep people in by giving returns, and spiritual energy scams will too, this is why claims like this need to be taken with a grain of salt:

 

3 hours ago, flowing hands said:

This why once you have been accepted by an immortal master another shaman goes into a trance and blesses you. Those marks put on your body protect you from any spirit that may come and interfere. The 'fa' that the immortal masters gives to you can be used to destroy bad spirits, heal and all sorts of things. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Such powers could be a genuine return from a good symbiotic relationship, or they might just be part of the con, you really don't know until its too late, and the victim or victims are the last to realize it.  The above example was chosen because it was convenient to quote, not because of any intended judgement about Flowing Hands sources.  Choosing to study with a teacher as part of an established lineage is like investing in a mutual fund, it is usually a safe investment of time and money.  There can be cases where a teacher without lineage is OK, but that is rare, and more of a gamble than good investment.

 

Studying these types of group energy systems is part of learning magic and I could write more, much more, but I don't have the time to do so now, but I hope these ideas are useful.

 

ZYD

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, flowing hands said:

 

Yes quite simple answers really, when generating force and speed from a low point, in this case the end of the cudgel, to bring the leg up at the same time adds to the generating force and the leg protects the lower groin and other leg. When doing this it is a specific strike, short and quick. This is why the foot is pointed down also. If a kick or weapon was to strike from below and catch a foot that was vertical, it can knock you over, for it has a surface to strike. When doing this one has developed the ability to stand on one leg and be almost immovable. Here I was just doing some bits of forms Most of the forms I learned are very long; 180 moves. Some quite exhausting.

 

Thanks .

 

That was about the only thing I could come up with , the move in question ;  the 'offensive' end of the staff (considering the next move ) is low near the ground , you step through and sweep strongly upwards  and the stepping through leg rises .  The move does feel very different if done without lifting the leg  -  the staff does not  appear to have as much ..... 'sweepy upwards momentum and force ' . 

 

{ in two other moves , one the leg comes up as the staff deflects a  strong downwards strike ,  you are trying to stomp on the end of the others staff  to disrupt their movement .  In the other it is against a thrust to the foot , the leg is lifted and foot moved out the way as a retracting movement of the staff knocks the thrust aside  and sets up for a counter thrust back with the other end .  }

 

Also ( while we on the subject )   I notice many  'Chinese ' staff forms are VERY differently executed  to the way they are in Okinawa . I believe this is Okinawan forms where developed from an original need  for self defence , mostly in a one on one situation, not ever having an 'army' of invasion or resistance ) . And the Chinese forms , or whatever it was you where doing  , with jumping , wide flailing and  circular movements , leaping while striking etc . developed more in a battle situation / multiple opponents  ... a 'melee '  so to speak .

 

Do you think that's a right  analysis ?

 

( I should also add that my  own forms within this  are a bit different from the usual as well .... even people in my style seem to do them staid and rigid , not flowing . I focus more on  applications - breaking them up and actually practising and fighting with the techniques  { staff Vs staff or other weapons } to analyse them  ....  it seems they practice fighting  'with the air '  too much and lack the spark of conflict which brings 'illumination'  .  . .   and   { while I am bitchin    }  , too much forward attention , not 360 deg awareness - which the  Chinese forms seem to have more of . )

[flowing hands]

42 minutes ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

One reason I was thankful that Walker posted as he did, was that it saved me the trouble and gives me an easy source of quotes with which I agree, such as these:

 

 

develops a symbiotic relationship: the usual "victim" of these situations would be lucky if the relationship was actually "symbiotic", the relationship is almost always parasitic.  I like to make a financial analogy, the difference between a Mutual Fund and a Ponzi Scheme.  A mutual fund  is a symbiotic relationship it benefits both parties, on the other had a ponzi scheme is something that benefits one party to the detriment of the other or others.  A "spiritual" ponzi scheme is an energy scam, it is set up to get people to put "energy" into the system which is used by spiritual beings for their own purposes, usually bad purposes and which leave the victims of the scheme severely compromised and maybe dead.  While flourishing such a spiritual ponzi scheme may be indistinguishable from a well run mutual fund, there are certain things that make it look suspicious, like apparently high returns on investment, but it is hard to prove that it is bad and a fraud, and those caught up in it believe in it and will defend it, until its collapse and until its collapse it is useless to try to talk them out of it.  The recent Madoff scheme and its collapse if paradigmatic and is recent enough to be something memorable to almost everyone, and also easy to research.

 

 

powerful ghost or demon may have the ability to masquerade as a seemingly-benevolent figure and may be able to grant quite a bit of power, knowledge, and special abilities to the recipient of its help:  Financial ponzi schemes keep people in by giving returns, and spiritual energy scams will too, this is why claims like this need to be taken with a grain of salt:

 

 

Such powers could be a genuine return from a good symbiotic relationship, or they might just be part of the con, you really don't know until its too late, and the victim or victims are the last to realize it.  The above example was chosen because it was convenient to quote, not because of any intended judgement about Flowing Hands sources.  Choosing to study with a teacher as part of an established lineage is like investing in a mutual fund, it is usually a safe investment of time and money.  There can be cases where a teacher without lineage is OK, but that is rare, and more of a gamble than good investment.

 

Studying these types of group energy systems is part of learning magic and I could write more, much more, but I don't have the time to do so now, but I hope these ideas are useful.

 

ZYD

 

If you want to learn 'magic' one has to be given 'fa' by an Immortal from a temple where it is safe to beg them to learn. It is safe there because the idols of the Immortals are usually blessed and 'open eye'. 'Fa' directly translated to English means to 'send out' to 'issue'. To the Chinese it means 'Divine energy'. Depending on the sect, a novice shaman once accepted has to spend over a year begging for the Immortal master to draw the 'Fa fu and Fa Shui' these the novice shaman takes internally, until his/hers body has been filled with energy of the Divine Master. Some sects have five amulets. Some sects do not do this and the shaman relies on calling down the Immortal master to do whatever is needed. Some sects like mine, we are given the 'fa' and if we are lucky we are taught how to cultivate it. But being given power means that one has to be pure and use the power wisely and appropriately. We don't need to call down the Immortal spirit to draw holy water or amulets. In an emergency we can do it ourselves and help whoever needs it. Mao Shan sect are renowned for their powerful abilities, but we do not use the power to show off, do tricks and harm others or other life. It is not intended for this, it is intended for self growth, to help other people and to become pure and lead us eventually to spiritual Immortality. 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

 

Besides the beautiful and expert explanation Hands already gave you i might add a little.

Single leg stances offer the effects and mechanics Hands spoke about but they also give the user two additional things: freeing up another limb for use in striking, levering or deflecting an incoming attack

 

   

 

Like  ... because a few times in our empty hand ( weaponless  ) forms ,  either leg is lifted in a 'strange'  ways .  Most people just do it and dont really know why      Many see it as a foot sweep or take  down  .  If one  worked out the principles 'hidden in plain sight ' in our style  (one of which is , defend the lower part f the body from attacks  with the lower parts of your body , -  ie legs and feet ) , one would realise   what those movements represent  ;   ' striking, levering or deflecting an incoming attack ' .    Teacher  (now passed on )   had a fav technique using that against a kick ;  move off line to the inside of the kick  and whip kick   to his outside  at the others leg as it kicks , driving his big toe into the others

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

. Secondly albeit related that free leg can give many unexpected advantages in positioning, turning, balance, stepping and even jumping.

 

 

 

Indeed , as in the case of the   Chinese Pirate  'Chinto'   that our founder could not defeat ( Matsamura corned Chinto in the back of a sea cave , Chinto took a position  with the end of the cave at his back and up a bit higher on some rocks , Matsamura could not defeat him  .  They later 'made friends' with Matsamura wanting to learn  from him.  Some of the techniques (with the strange foot position , pre kicking -  and other  ' Chinese pirate techniques '     )    where set out in Chinto kata ;

 

from 0:38

 

 

However its significance and application seem lost to most that practice this form .  

[doc benway]

31 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Also ( while we on the subject )   I notice many  'Chinese ' staff forms are VERY differently executed  to the way they are in Okinawa . I believe this is Okinawan forms where developed from an original need  for self defence , mostly in a one on one situation, not ever having an 'army' of invasion or resistance ) . And the Chinese forms , or whatever it was you where doing  , with jumping , wide flailing and  circular movements , leaping while striking etc . developed more in a battle situation / multiple opponents  ... a 'melee '  so to speak .

 

Do you think that's a right  analysis ?

 

 

I do

In the Okinawan and Chinese polearm forms I’ve studied the Okinawan bunkai is definitely more one on one. The Chinese tend to be more battlefield spear applications.

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Lord Josh Allen said:

Thanks, everyone! 

 

How about a little fan dance to show your appreciation ?

 

a Chinese one, that is

 

 

 

NOT the Japanese version thanks

 

 

[Nungali]

18 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I do

In the Okinawan and Chinese polearm forms I’ve studied the Okinawan bunkai is definitely more one on one. The Chinese tend to be more battlefield spear applications.

 

HA!    Yes ! 

 

On that note ,  I have   given   my style, I would say , near 30% of previously 'unknown' or unclear interpretations  from simply practising 'staff' forms with  rubber spear head attached to one end  .... all of a sudden i am slicing tendons  at the back of the others  knee , doing ' twirlies ' that slice the fingers or hand of the other where  they grip their staff for certain attacks .  And it opens a whole new range of understanding applications with 'eku' ( fighting oar )  and its paddle/blade  , which is sorta like a big broad spearhead .

[doc benway]

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

HA!    Yes ! 

 

On that note ,  I have   given   my style, I would say , near 30% of previously 'unknown' or unclear interpretations  from simply practising 'staff' forms with  rubber spear head attached to one end  .... all of a sudden i am slicing tendons  at the back of the others  knee , doing ' twirlies ' that slice the fingers or hand of the other where  they grip their staff for certain attacks .  And it opens a whole new range of understanding applications with 'eku' ( fighting oar )  and its paddle/blade  , which is sorta like a big broad spearhead .

Absolutely, think naginata!

 

 

 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Staffwork forms have all sorts of application. What little Okinawa staff i’ve seen i think is staff v staff or staff v stick, developable to extend as staff v spear, short cudgel/bat/hammer or even sabre but i couldn’t for the life of me guess correctly at how the teaching plan looks since i haven’t studied it.

 

South chinese staff comes in different shapes and forms but often begins at staff v staff since it gives both practicioners fair training of both offensive and defensive concepts and applications besides power and technique.

After you can start to shift the weapons around but staff is a practical starting point to illustrate incoming power also, its vectors being visible and fairly uncomplex, it can also be a very educational weapon for exploring bouncing force, short power and tactical positioning. 

For me the fun ends with staff vs double short weapons or single long or short soft weapons, thats gets scary really fast for whoever brought the staff

But same weapon paired forms are great for exposing strong points and weak points of the style also, things have a tendency to come alive especially with staff v staff training.

 

1 hour ago, steve said:

The Chinese tend to be more battlefield spear applications.

 

I’d say both yes and no imo.

Staff has a myriad more possibilities and the advantage of evenly distributed weight and shape, spear applications are all performable with a staff but not the opposite. You cant safely knock the ground with the spearpoint more than once, but a staff threatening to crack your toes and metacarpals will have anyone retreating fast out of common sense

Battlefield spearwork is fairly unimaginative since it relies on group tactics, you cant do very much variation if you’re a spear solider or a pikeman. Job has goals and targets and when it comes to one on one soldiers were more likely to resort to swords or knives for dispensing with closing enemies.

 

All the spinning and twisting and ”fancy stuff” is morepplicable as self defense against ambush or chaotic skirmishing with multiple attackers, if not control exercises and concepts/tactics to remember.

 

My fave is close quarters staff vs staff in tigth spaces, thats intense and fast, also fun!

Edited February 17, 2020 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, steve said:

Absolutely, think naginata!

 

 

 

 

Thanks .    regarding the depicted victorious move  in the vid   ( who knows what the defeating move  really was  .....  the Mod on my history forum is an abso Japanese battle nut historian , maybe he knows if there is a historical record  of it ? )

 

We practice a similar move against sword with   bo .   I am NOT a fan of that 'block; with the staff ; when instructor did it, I quickly cut sideways along the bo and took his fingers off   ( well, not off of course    but with a wooden practice sword ,  enough of a knock across the knuckles to   'disrupt his chi '   and then cut him down   .... and enough to make him swear at me   and go   " OWWWWW  ! Shit !  " 

 

Now, we move as if to block as depicted in vid, but  'melt away' the staff ( moving off line at same time ) and strike at the swordsman's  head.   That is , the sword never actually touches the staff . 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Mmm, sliding along a staff when somebody offers you their fingers, such a thoughtful gift!

 

If a style does not teach how to grip a staff and keep your fingers safe you need to invent that skill quickly, its not very tricky and your hand strenght and suppleness will skyrocket.

 

Fencers beware, a staff can esily bounce off the spine of your blade, knock the nearest exposed joint to splinters and skip along to jab hard at your sensitive areas while your sword is still moving way off target. Especially single edge swords are at risk. Gim/jian are at risk of being whacked midblade and go wobbly if not outright bent. Go for a cross-fiber slice at the supporting forearms big muscles, that’ll teach your staff twirling opponent to break your knuckles...

 

[Nungali]

37 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

Staffwork forms have all sorts of application. What little Okinawa staff i’ve seen i think is staff v staff or staff v stick, developable to extend as staff v spear, short cudgel/bat/hammer or even sabre but i couldn’t for the life of me guess correctly at how the teaching plan looks since i haven’t studied it.

 

 A  lot of  it is 'cultural'   ; Japanese imposition  (and later Okinawan also ) , the banning of weapons etc .   One could not justify  carrying a spear  but a staff is acceptable , or if a fisherman , an oar  or a farmer  a sickle .  (or for me at home -  considering legislation that seems to favour the invader  - a sturdy 'broom'  with  broom head that keeps 'falling off'     )

 

So it would  be staff, sickle oar etc ( ie. whatever you had )  , against whatever else anyone is using on you . 

 

In later times  when all Okinawan weaponry banned ,  guards / body guards (for royalty ) where allowed the 'tessen ' a type of miniature 'ornamental '  folded up fan  .

 

 

or just 'empty hand ' techniques .   .  .  .  .   guarding the king against others with weapons and even guns  !  tricky stuff .

 

Matsamura Soken - King's right hand man/bodyguard .

 

( There is a better drawing that I cant find at the moment , it shows Commander Perry an armed hot heads  (and a bunch of  armed American hot heads)  meeting the King , his boys are either  side looking 'anxious'  others are scattered around at seemingly random positions ... ready to swarm the Americans , stand in front of the  king  in case of  gunfire and others ready to shoot him out the door behind him if shit erupts .    In such a situation strategy and tactics are of  great importance .)
  

 

37 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

 

South chinese staff comes in different shapes and forms but often begins at staff v staff since it gives both practicioners fair training of both offensive and defensive concepts and applications besides power and technique.

After you can start to shift the weapons around but staff is a practical starting point to illustrate incoming power also, its vectors being visible and fairly uncomplex, it can also be a very educational weapon for exploring bouncing force, short power and tactical positioning. 

 

Ahh ... many an 'expert' nunchaku  'twirler'  comes unstuck when going against a weapon   .....   swing  - CRACK !  -  bounce - Owwwwwww !

 

Learn to use a 'shaft' before you stick a weapon on the end  ... same goes for 'two sticks' .

 

 

37 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

For me the fun ends with staff vs double short weapons or single long or short soft weapons, thats gets scary really fast for whoever brought the staff

 

.... I recently got some rubbery bladed  gama  ( small rice harvestingsickles )   so I can expoler the techniques against other weapons better than with  dangerous metal ones .  Man, I am 'slicing' those guys up !   The when I hand them to them to try ... they are 

 

  " Oh Yeah !  " 

 

Hmmm , next I will try    to best them using a staff against  sickle and see what I can learn .

 

37 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

But same weapon paired forms are great for exposing strong points and weak points of the style also, things have a tendency to come alive especially with staff v staff training.

 

 

I’d say both yes and no imo.

Staff has a myriad more possibilities and the advantage of evenly distributed weight and shape, spear applications are all performable with a staff but not the opposite. You cant safely knock the ground with the spearpoint more than once, but a staff threatening to crack your toes and metacarpals will have anyone retreating fast out of common sense

 

 How come ? 

 

For those attacks I use the 'unpointy' end of the spear . usually .

 

What's worse for the leading edge foot and toe attacks (or anywhere on the foot ) is the 'hiwa '  (or kuwa)     ... urrrrgh!  You dont want that coming down across the toes !

 

 0:30 ,  

 

 

37 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

Battlefield spearwork is fairly unimaginative since it relies on group tactics, you cant do very much variation if you’re a spear solider or a pikeman. Job has goals and targets and when it comes to one on one soldiers were more likely to resort to swords or knives for dispensing with closing enemies.

 

All the spinning and twisting and ”fancy stuff” is morepplicable as self defense against ambush or chaotic skirmishing with multiple attackers, if not control exercises and concepts/tactics to remember.

 

or for a 'demo'    .... or 'riving back'  once there is a 'clash'    'hands firm on weapons ' .

 

37 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

 

My fave is close quarters staff vs staff in tigth spaces, thats intense and fast, also fun!

 

I am a bit of the fan of the twin machete  ,  I do  6 forms with them all adapted from Hohan Soken  sai 1-3 and gama 1-3 .

 

" The machete  officer ?   Oh , I have just been camping    .   .  .  .    what's that ?   Why two matching ones  ?  Errrmmmmm  ...... "