Weather Magick

[Walker]

11 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Sure, he´s not a wandering hermit, not a sage.  Then again, he isn´t claiming otherwise.

 

Honestly, I believe with the way he presents himself on YouTube, he is claiming to be quite advanced. He might not call himself a sage outright, but... 

 

11 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I think he´s a Bum in process, much like myself.  It´s possible that at some point that the cars and the clothes won´t mean what they mean to him today. He might look back on his videos and feel embarrassed that he ever presumed to call himself a Daoist.  Or maybe not.  I just hope that there´s a place here on the board for people at all levels of spiritual development.

 

The clothes really aren't the big problem, though I made fun of them when he first showed up in a reactionary manner. The problem is when somebody who has not really received teachings takes to a high platform to hold a megaphone, as it were, and preach home-baked understandings. When one adds to this the establishment of some sort of organization devoted to the glory of a disembodied voice... complicated, complicated.

 

At any rate, although "Lord" Josh Allen is at the center of this conversation, I am not all that concerned with how he turns out. I am not under any illusions that I am going to sway him with my message board posts, especially since he disregarded the lists of common Daoist warnings about ghosts, demons, and playing with spells that I typed up.

 

The posts I am writing are for those newbies who know next to nothing about Daoism, but feel a draw to it and may watch Josh Allen videos and conclude, "ah, so this is what Daoism is all about."

 

I can only use the term human wreckage to describe what I have seen of some unfortunate people who have thrown in their lot with the wrong kind of "Daoist" teacher. Such outcomes are tragic; being better informed might help some people avoid them. I do accept the possibility that Josh Allen is really being guided by an actual Daoist immortal. Such things do happen, just like some people digging in their flowerbeds unexpectedly bang their spades against nuggets of gold. 

 

11 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 So yeah, I suggest tolerance.  My conscious is clear in doing so.  At the same time, I respect those who have put more time and effort into this path than I.  Please don´t think otherwise.   

 

Tolerance is good. I admit that I was intolerant of Josh when I made fun of him. Since talking with Steve in this thread I have been careful and have shared with him lessons repeated to me by Daoists in three different lineages in three different countries. They might not suit him and they might seem like they're intended to take the wind out of his sails... But let me tell you, having a Daoist teacher involves having a lot of wind taken out of your sails! A responsible teacher tends to hear a lot of "wow, master, yesterday I was meditating and then ________________________ happened! Amazing, right?" Then the teacher gives a bland reply like "forget it," and possibly patiently explains why such a manifestation is of little or no meaning and should definitely not be latched upon. To a beginner, this can be very disappointing! We want to be special, we felt qi, we saw a spirit, we had a prescient dream--why does the Daoist wave this all off with utter disinterest? To the student who sticks with it, the wisdom in this approach gradually becomes more and more apparent. 

 

Also, regarding nomenclature, I say this with seriousness to suggest a different viewpoint, not to take a jab at you. You have spoken about the gay community many times in this forum. That is a community that has taken nomenclature quite seriously (and rightfully so, I would add). The gay community's experience with epithets and labels can be one reminder of how important a label or name can be, and why people might find it important to seek clarity in definitions. There's actually an awful lot "in a name," even if names are "just words." Those who practice magic surely also realize this--this aspect of language is probably one of the bases for why spells can even work at all (not that I know for certain, I do not practice any magic). 

[Walker]

10 hours ago, Lord Josh Allen said:

The deal had been done and I had to accept it and eventually grow to love it. Whilst we are on the subject, do you think I am the only one who speaks to him? Guess again. I've met hundreds of people over the years, from all cultures, backgrounds, and creeds, they have a connection to Kongming just as I do. Their relationship with him is just as legitimate as mine. Maybe they don't feel the weather magick connection but the voice is still present. What authority do I have over anyone else if they hear voices? Spirituality isn't a competition, we can have our experiences. We can all co-exist. 

 

I also have a question about this, Josh. I wish to be sure though, you do literally mean to say that hundreds of people are hearing the voice of Zhuge Liang? I'd like to confirm that before I respond to anything else you've said. 

[liminal_luke]

5 minutes ago, Walker said:

 

 You have spoken about the gay community many times in this forum. That is a community that has taken nomenclature quite seriously (and rightfully so, I would add). The gay community's experience with epithets and labels can be one reminder of how important a label or name can be, and why people might find it important to seek clarity in definitions. 

 

Actually, I don´t get too worked up over gay community definitions either.  How many letters are there in the acronym that supposedly represents the community I belong to -- LGBQT, or is it more now?  Don´t ask me what queer means or how it might differ from garden-variety gay.  There are plenty of men who have sex with other men while claiming to be straight; more than a few women who´ve never had sex with another women who claim to be lesbian.  Who can keep track of it anymore?  I´m happy to let people call themselves whatever they want.

 

As far as homophobic slurs go, to me it´s all about intent.  The slur isn´t in the word -- it´s in the intention of the person using it.  

 

But this is far afield from the subject of weather magic (even if Lord Josh Allen is, as he claims, the Liberace of the occult world).I do hear your point.

[Walker]

57 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Actually, I don´t get too worked up over gay community definitions either.  How many letters are there in the acronym that supposedly represents the community I belong to -- LGBQT, or is it more now?  Don´t ask me what queer means or how it might differ from garden-variety gay.  There are plenty of men who have sex with other men while claiming to be straight; more than a few women who´ve never had sex with another women who claim to be lesbian.  Who can keep track of it anymore?  I´m happy to let people call themselves whatever they want.

 

Fair point. An excessive focus on nomenclature can lead to confusion if not absurdity; universal agreement on definitions will never arrive.

 

I can see why it is a good idea to just let people call themselves what they want... up to the point where it becomes deception that harms others. An example is D.L. dudes whose wives have no idea where hubby really is on Saturday night until they finally find out and end up thoroughly disillusioned with love and possibly, if the husband did not use protection during his escapades, sick.

 

The stakes are low when one chooses a label and definition for one's own comfort. The stakes increase tremendously when one's choice implicates others who believe it means a certain thing. 

 

Quote

But this is far afield from the subject of weather magic (even if Lord Josh Allen is, as he claims, the Liberace of the occult world).I do hear your point.

 

Gotcha. I also did not bring this up because of the Liberace comment.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Walker

[flowing hands]

I agree with Walker wholeheartedly, on the point that really Josh is bringing the name of Dao practices into disrepute. Without a solid foundational knowledge, he is selling himself as someone who has knowledge. If he believes that Kongming is teaching him, there is a well established system and way that a person has to go through to establish this connection without doubt. Kong ming does not appear in the register of Immortals. The system is not an easy option and you can't buy it and it involves true faith and sincerity. It means kneeling down, being really humble, and begging your heart out perhaps every day for over an hour to try and get the Immortal master to come. One may do this for over a year, before the Immortal master comes. Or you may be like me, do it in twenty minutes. It has to be done in a temple that has been blessed or in the presence of another shaman. Once the Immortal master has come you are left in no doubt as your body is taken over by a force that is beyond your comprehension.  I have taught many to try and they have not been successful. It is a very difficult thing and the Immortal masters are not that easy to persuade to be your teacher perhaps for a whole lifetime. Even though I could draw the fa fu etc. The Immortal master would not teach me martial art. I would stand arms up for over an hour, facing the east, begging, but they would not come. After two years of going this, one day the Immortal master came and he said, I'm going to teach you my Tai Ji. From there I went on to learn 13 different styles of martial arts. I think if Josh wants to carry on doing vids etc, he needs to make it clear that what he's doing is for entertainment value only. Then he will not be misleading people into thinking that he knows what he is doing. I don't think it's fine but is acceptable.

[silent thunder]

which raindrop is wrong?

and landed incorrectly?

my answer?  not one.

 

which daoist is wrong?

and who is the arbiter?

to choose right?  no one.

 

no one knows the end

of center's unfolding in

perpetual tao.

Edited February 18, 2020 by silent thunder

[Lord Josh Allen]

13 hours ago, Walker said:

 

I also have a question about this, Josh. I wish to be sure though, you do literally mean to say that hundreds of people are hearing the voice of Zhuge Liang? I'd like to confirm that before I respond to anything else you've said. 

Yes. That's right, hundreds of people have contacted me over a period of about 10 years and shared personal stories and experiences with the voices, dreams, visions that they have had in relation to Kongming. I could (possibly) gather some of these people together and ask them to sign up on the forum so you could hear it straight from them. I could never talk about someone else's personal journey in detail. Some of them have YouTube channels, for example, one of my very closest friends Bless Parco is an Occultist, she's been in several of my video documentaries and has even made a video on Kongming. We had similar spiritual experiences and that's how we met. Here is Bless. Others don't have channels or websites and simply email me sharing their stories of Kongming. 

 

It is fascinating to know that Kongming seems to transcend the typical boundaries of Taoism. Pagan witches contact him, Druid warlocks channel him, Native American shamans work with him. I've had the honor of meeting all these people over the years. Are they all telling the truth? I know Bless is, I know my other close friends are but obviously I can't verify every single message I get from strangers. I believe them because they are so similar to my own experiences. How can we all hear the same voice? 

 

 

 

[silent thunder]

All this about who is a wrong taoist, reminds me of a moment I had at church, when I knew I was leaving, but hadn't sprung the news on mum yet and was still attending youth functions.  It strikes me as insecure.

 

I said something provocational and was verbally attacked and chastised by an elder for blaspheming.

 

"if the being capable of creating all of reality can be offended by my spoken random thoughts and questioning... then that being is wildly insecure and i pity it."

 

That said, I'm not one for interferring much.  Neither in nature, nor in my relationships with people and animals.  So I'm not real prone to even trying to influence the weather.  I tend to shape my process around such forces, rather than interfere myself... who am i to know the outcome of such?

 

But this is my way, not the way... it's not the right way, but it's the way for me right now.

I don't translate Tao as The Path.  It's pathing.  No path exists without the path walker.

They are not two things, but one unfolding process...  to me.

 

One caveat, is that when I see what I perceive to be suffering, I tend to reach out and attempt to soothe.  Mostly with animals, insects and people.  At times with shrubs and trees, patches of earth, even creeks and river banks.  This leads to some interference, even though I cannot know the end result of my actions... I find I am compelled to them and aquiesce and do not struggle against the impulses. 

 

This is my path i make as i walk.

 

I know I'm really assuaging my own suffering, in attempting to soothe what I perceive as theirs.

 

Who holds the rulebook for what is a daoist?

Is there any being, or non-being, anywhere in manifest or un... who is separate from dao?

 

the center is no where and everywhere

the bellows arises and falls away

 

what harm if another is pathing in a manner you find incongruent?

don't follow them.

 

but will you be the arbiter of how they must path?

do you know the ends of pathing?

 

all roads stem from source

we are none of us, ever separated from source by even a hair's width, for a millisecond... ever.

 

truth is a mental notion of perspective.

in the universe can you point to the direction that is 'up'?

on our planet?

 

in your mind?

 

who is deciding, when you decide?

 

 

 

so these days, i tend toward kindness when i can

and silence when i can't

 

or mildly provocational reproach when i'm frisky and flirting with certainty

 

 

Edited February 18, 2020 by silent thunder

[Lord Josh Allen]

14 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

You said something back here that interested me:

 

 

This leads me to ask, how do you recognize these people when you met them, how do they recognize you, and how do you confirm about the voice?  They  may be from many creeds and backgrounds, but it must be a very small percentage of the population, as even one percent of the world population would give as seventy-seven or so million people and then I think we would have all heard of this type of connection.

 

Thank you in advance for your clarification on this matter,

 

ZYD

Hi. They usually contact me because my videos/blogs show up in a Google search. I have an extensive body of work on Zhuge Liang, his inventions, his battles, his Occultism, his ideas, etc so finding me as a result of researching him isn't hard. Once they find me they will privately email, leave a YouTube comment or message me on Facebook. Usually, they want to tell me their personal history with hearing the voices, having dreams or seeing strange coincidences because I'm in the same boat as they are. People tend to treat them like they are crazy but I never do. I respond back and tell them what I think and sometimes we become good friends, others just get what they need to know and that's it. It might be a small percentage but the stories are always the same, almost identical in many cases. The details I've heard from people are so accurate to my own experiences that it becomes uncanny. It confirms what I already know to be true. 

 

How do I verify them? As I just said to Walker, I can't really verify anything from strangers. I know my close friends such as Bless and some others who may or may not appreciate me naming them, I know they are being honest because they speak of similar stories and they are sincere people. I'm not in the business of disbelieving anyone's spiritual journey, I've had a lot of "strange" things happen to me so obviously "strange" things happen to others as well. I tend to believe people because they have no reason to lie to me about hearing voices. Unlike some, I'm quite vocal about it and I'm not embarrassed to admit it. Some of the people who I speak with have jobs that would be put at risk if they spoke publicly about their feelings. I'm quite accepting so they know I won't judge. 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Thank you post facto for your clear answer, both to my question and to Walker's similar one, which was possibly inspired by my own.  Apparently then people are contacting you because of your own promotion of Kongming, that makes sense in an internet age.

 

ZYD

[liminal_luke]

Thanks @silent thunder for your wisdom about non-interference.  Thinking about my flurry of posts in this thread last night, I wish I´d more inclined towards non-interference.  I got caught up in thinking I was right, forgetting that I don´t even much enjoy being right.  Being wrong is even more of a bummer.  (Good thing it happens so infrequently!)  It´s more fun to connect with friends, walk in the sunshine, eat Alfredo sauce.  If Walker or Flowing Hands or anybody else wish to chastise Lord Josh Allen for saying he´s a Daoist, well, that´s just a drop of rain falling where it´s supposed to.  I can relax and let be.  

Edited February 18, 2020 by liminal_luke

[silent thunder]

and I find your participation in this thread to be falling in just the right spot my friend.

 

I find your interference tends toward kindness and kindness is a high art to me.

 

I appreciate contentious conversation, it instigates depth.

When done with kindness, it also instigates unity and healing.

Spoiler

 

[doc benway]

25 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

and I find your participation in this thread to be falling in just the right spot my friend.

 

I find your interference tends toward kindness and kindness is a high art to me.

 

I appreciate contentious conversation, it instigates depth.

When done with kindness, it also instigates unity and healing.

  Hide contents

 

 

Yes!

Everywhere!!

❤️

[Taomeow]

18 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

kindness is a high art to me.

 

 

 

The highest, to me.  And I believe failure to cultivate it nullifies any and all other attainments.  

 

Of course cultivating kindness is nowhere near as simple as all those new age calls to unconditional this and that. 

 

At a more opportune moment I might tell the story of a friend of mine and his sick old horse.  He had to rip his heart out to kill that horse, out of kindness, usually his most noticeable natural trait.  He did it after exhausting all other ways to be kind and compassionate over the previous two years.  The horse was in constant pain and couldn't stand on legs that were destroyed by illness.  He spent extreme money and extreme care to help her.  Then he finally agreed to the lethal injection. 

 

And he was never the same.  And because he's not a cultivator, this "never the same" seems to have robbed him of a lot of humanity.  He became unkind -- even to his own children, whom he used to never hesitate to spoil rotten with his kindness.   

 

Cultivating kindness in extreme circumstances is the most arcane spiritual task of them all.  Which is why I don't think it's worth it to treat every circumstance as extreme and try to fix all the ills of the world by focusing on a particular individual who may be in the wrong, the setting of whom straight may serve humanity -- but...  I believe one has to choose one's battles so as not to exhaust too much steam on causes not worthy of such effort.  Aquila non captat muscas.  

 

 

[doc benway]

15 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

The highest, to me. 

Me as well

 

15 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

And I believe failure to cultivate it nullifies any and all other attainments.  

It takes a certain degree of maturity, humility, and internal investigation to see the truth of this.

 

15 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

Of course cultivating kindness is nowhere near as simple as all those new age calls to unconditional this and that. 

Ain’t that the truth!

Although there may come a time when the kindness flows effortlessly and with utter simplicity. Getting to that point is not a trivial matter.

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Thank you post facto for your clear answer, both to my question and to Walker's similar one, which was possibly inspired by my own.  Apparently then people are contacting you because of your own promotion of Kongming, that makes sense in an internet age.

 

ZYD

 

To take the 'Devil's Advocate' position for a moment :

 

Such phenomena  ( a 'spreading of contact' with ' numerous people reporting same )  have been going on before the internet .  Occasionally I have documented  such phenomena here when I have written about  ' Daimonic Reality '   and its propensity to exponentially spread , at times ,   ' unusual phenomena'  .

 

Of course the internet age offers an   '  exponential ² '  . 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

10 minutes ago, Nungali said:

2 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Thank you post facto for your clear answer, both to my question and to Walker's similar one, which was possibly inspired by my own.  Apparently then people are contacting you because of your own promotion of Kongming, that makes sense in an internet age.

 

ZYD

 

To take the 'Devil's Advocate' position for a moment :

 

Such phenomena  ( a 'spreading of contact' with ' numerous people reporting same )  have been going on before the internet .  Occasionally I have documented  such phenomena here when I have written about  ' Daimonic Reality '   and its propensity to exponentially spread , at times ,   ' unusual phenomena'  .

 

Of course the internet age offers an   '  exponential ² '  . 

 

Just to clarify, my question was why were these people contacting him, not about why they were having their experiences.  The internet is the answer to why they contacted him, as to why he or they were having their experiences, that is why I posted this:

 

On 2/16/2020 at 1:00 PM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

One reason I was thankful that Walker posted as he did, was that it saved me the trouble and gives me an easy source of quotes with which I agree, such as these:

 

On 2/15/2020 at 9:17 PM, Walker said:

The person has a deep desire for something like power, influence, fame, uniqueness, escape, or ability (including a benevolent ability like healing) and unwittingly invites a disembodied being into his/her life and develops a symbiotic relationship with that being (this relationship could have started in a previous life and may be the fault of family rather than individual karma). (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

develops a symbiotic relationship: the usual "victim" of these situations would be lucky if the relationship was actually "symbiotic", the relationship is almost always parasitic.  I like to make a financial analogy, the difference between a Mutual Fund and a Ponzi Scheme.  A mutual fund  is a symbiotic relationship it benefits both parties, on the other had a ponzi scheme is something that benefits one party to the detriment of the other or others.  A "spiritual" ponzi scheme is an energy scam, it is set up to get people to put "energy" into the system which is used by spiritual beings for their own purposes, usually bad purposes and which leave the victims of the scheme severely compromised and maybe dead.  While flourishing such a spiritual ponzi scheme may be indistinguishable from a well run mutual fund, there are certain things that make it look suspicious, like apparently high returns on investment, but it is hard to prove that it is bad and a fraud, and those caught up in it believe in it and will defend it, until its collapse and until its collapse it is useless to try to talk them out of it.  The recent Madoff scheme and its collapse if paradigmatic and is recent enough to be something memorable to almost everyone, and also easy to research.

 

On 2/15/2020 at 9:17 PM, Walker said:

The person is being used by a malevolent ghost with some power or a demon in order to further that being's agenda on earth. That powerful ghost or demon may have the ability to masquerade as a seemingly-benevolent figure and may be able to grant quite a bit of power, knowledge, and special abilities to the recipient of its help. In such a situation the price that is paid in the end by the human who is used is said to be extremely high. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

powerful ghost or demon may have the ability to masquerade as a seemingly-benevolent figure and may be able to grant quite a bit of power, knowledge, and special abilities to the recipient of its help:  Financial ponzi schemes keep people in by giving returns, and spiritual energy scams will too, this is why claims like this need to be taken with a grain of salt:

 

On 2/16/2020 at 9:35 AM, flowing hands said:

This why once you have been accepted by an immortal master another shaman goes into a trance and blesses you. Those marks put on your body protect you from any spirit that may come and interfere. The 'fa' that the immortal masters gives to you can be used to destroy bad spirits, heal and all sorts of things. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Such powers could be a genuine return from a good symbiotic relationship, or they might just be part of the con, you really don't know until its too late, and the victim or victims are the last to realize it.  The above example was chosen because it was convenient to quote, not because of any intended judgement about Flowing Hands sources.  Choosing to study with a teacher as part of an established lineage is like investing in a mutual fund, it is usually a safe investment of time and money.  There can be cases where a teacher without lineage is OK, but that is rare, and more of a gamble than good investment.

 

Studying these types of group energy systems is part of learning magic and I could write more, much more, but I don't have the time to do so now, but I hope these ideas are useful.

 

I hope this clarifies the matter.

 

ZYD

[SirPalomides]

On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2020 at 4:00 PM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

 

powerful ghost or demon may have the ability to masquerade as a seemingly-benevolent figure and may be able to grant quite a bit of power, knowledge, and special abilities to the recipient of its help

 

Minus the actual help part, this reminds me of a funny anecdote I read in Terry Kleeman's introduction to A God's Own Tale, about some students trying to summon Lu Dongbin:

 

A group of students had gathered at a phoenix [spirit writing] altar to ask their fortunes. The phoenix wrote, "Drunkard Zhao has arrived." They all cursed him, saying, "We invited Transcendent Lu. HOw dare a savage ghost interfere! We are going to request that the great transcendent's sword behead you!" The phoenix halted, then began again, writing, "The Daoist Dongbin happened to be passing by. What do you want to ask?" The students solemnly bowed twice, then asked about their fates in the examination. The phoenix wrote, "Rub more ink." Thereupon each person prepared ink on his inkstone and in a moment they had filled a bowl. Kneeling, they asked how they should use it. The phoenix said, "You students divide it up and drink it, then hear my pronouncement." They all divided the ink and drank it. When they had finished, the phoenix wrote in large characters, "Normally you do not study; now you drink ink at the last moment. I am not Patriarch Lu; I am still Drunkard Zhao!" The students were mortified and destroyed the altar.

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Aquila non captat muscas

 

Et aranearum facere muscas captare.
 

[manitou]

3 hours ago, steve said:

Me as well

 

It takes a certain degree of maturity, humility, and internal investigation to see the truth of this.

 

Ain’t that the truth!

Although there may come a time when the kindness flows effortlessly and with utter simplicity. Getting to that point is not a trivial matter.

 

 

Kindness is the way in which One communicates (if you get my capitalization of One).  We are One.  The highest vibration that can emit from us is kindness in the face of all.  This, I agree, is quite a practice.  Wei wu wei is often found in kindness.

 

The  catch-22 is that this vibration cannot be attained if the egoic wall is thick.  Those things that were mentioned earlier - cars, hats, etc - tend to reinforce the egoic level of our being.  We are operating at a huge handicap.  This is why self-realization is crucial - it is the outcome of a serious effort to know ourselves to the core, to look for shadows within and see them for what they are:  obstructions to clarity.

 

I think Daoism and Buddhism are symbiotic because the higher understanding of both points to the direction of the One, the jumping off point for the Void or Nirvana.  At their roots there is no difference at all.  Just different conditionings on the way of the paths we chose, or were born into.  I may not be in the majority here, but I think the most freedom is found in the path of no path at all.  No structure.  I don't consider myself an -ist of any kind.  But I do think the path of no-path is a self realization, a realization of who or what it is that we really are.  Once we learn who we are and learn to do the sorcery of wei wu wei - that's when the real magic occurs.

 

But we have to self-realize first.  There's the rub.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

40 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

Those things that were mentioned earlier - cars, hats, etc - tend to reinforce the egoic level of our being. 

 

  I don't consider myself an -ist of any kind.  

 

 

LIke you, I´m not very into cars or hats.  I will say, however, that you have a very nice wand.

 

It´s true, I think, that material things can get in the way of spiritual development but they can also serve as spiritual aides.  Everything depends on a persons relationship with the material.  If the having of something becomes a way of building up one´s false persona, that´s destructive.  Many people construct their identities around stuff.  I am someone who owns a sports car.  I am someone who owns diamond encrusted cowboy boots.  In a similar way, people can build identities around spiritual labels and ranks.  I am a Daoist.  I am an ordained priest. If people are lucky they come to realize that there´s not enough praise and prestige in the whole world to fill a broken heart, not enough material riches to mend the primal wound. Only self- love and self-compassion will do. 

 

Other people manage to possess all sorts of stuff, receive all sorts of public acclaim, and still manage to walk lightly in the world.  They don´t use things or labels to puff themselves up.  Instead, they surround themselves with beauty as a kind of hallelujah to creation.  The ownership of a beautiful car can be a prayer.  It´s a short hop from rapture over an automotive engine to the glory of God (or whatever word one wants to use for ineffable holiness).

 

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by liminal_luke

[Zhongyongdaoist]

3 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

On 2/16/2020 at 1:00 PM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

 

powerful ghost or demon may have the ability to masquerade as a seemingly-benevolent figure and may be able to grant quite a bit of power, knowledge, and special abilities to the recipient of its help

 

Minus the actual help part, this reminds me of a funny anecdote I read in Terry Kleeman's introduction to A God's Own Tale, about some students trying to summon Lu Dongbin:

 

A group of students had gathered at a phoenix [spirit writing] altar to ask their fortunes. The phoenix wrote, "Drunkard Zhao has arrived." They all cursed him, saying, "We invited Transcendent Lu. HOw dare a savage ghost interfere! We are going to request that the great transcendent's sword behead you!" The phoenix halted, then began again, writing, "The Daoist Dongbin happened to be passing by. What do you want to ask?" The students solemnly bowed twice, then asked about their fates in the examination. The phoenix wrote, "Rub more ink." Thereupon each person prepared ink on his inkstone and in a moment they had filled a bowl. Kneeling, they asked how they should use it. The phoenix said, "You students divide it up and drink it, then hear my pronouncement." They all divided the ink and drank it. When they had finished, the phoenix wrote in large characters, "Normally you do not study; now you drink ink at the last moment. I am not Patriarch Lu; I am still Drunkard Zhao!" The students were mortified and destroyed the altar.

 

Thanks SirPalomides, a good illustration, I'm afraid I saw the punchline coming, but still the message is clear.  If you are dealing with a particularly powerful being it is easy for it to be able to manifest a deceptive appearance, and even people who have advanced training can be deceived.  The matter is complex, even here we recently had two people claiming to be magicians weigh in on opposite sides of the Jeff issue.  Finally, in bringing these issues up, I am not saying that they apply to the OP personally, but that there are certainly some aspects of his story which are suspicious.  It might be useful to post on these ideas in a thread of their own, but I don't have the time now to give it the attention it deserves.

 

ZYD

Edited February 19, 2020 by Zhongyongdaoist
Clarify pronoun him.

[Sebastian]

 

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

It´s true, I think, that material things can get in the way of spiritual development but they can also serve as spiritual aides.  Everything depends on a persons relationship with the material. 

 

This is very true Luke. I was once put off by a particular Master because I knew he was driving around in sports cars. Apparently he had made a lot of money from TCM, establishing universities in the West and had various businesses. And I just couldn't reconcile the fact he was driving sports cars with being a Taoist lineage Master. I didn't have much respect for him to be honest, but I was wrong. Because his mind was not tainted. Owning luxury items is not against the Tao - what matters is if it affects one's mind. This guy was busting his ass off to make a contribution to the world in the medical field and deserved every penny he made, and here I was judging his preferred choice of cars, as proof he was somewhat still materialistic compared to me/us. And I wasn't doing even close to the contribution to the world than he was. Making money is just part of the path too. Contrary to the popular belief, it is not more spiritual to be living in the streets or relying on others. So although owning some green paper may have nothing to do with Dao or enlightenment, at the end of the day you still need to find a way to get some, and you don't want to be a burden to society.

 

I also agree it's hard to get a clear picture of something when you only have partial information. One side of the coin is always missing. That's why the intellect is so active, it tries to extrapolate. Judging is like flipping a coin with imperfect information. Sometimes we are right, relatively right, but sometimes we are dead wrong. And one side of a coin or of an issue can never be the final judgment on a person's character. As Silent Thunder stated, only the Divine knows what's going on, only the Divine has information that isn't partial.  I might have a personal opinion about someone, but I know that my opinion isn't the final judgement, and I am not one to judge that person's worth. People will come and go along the ride, in DaoBums and elsewhere.... Some will inspire you, others mistreat you. But personally no matter how I am treated, I vow to follow kindness as others have suggested. Only kindness is constant, only kindness is whole, impartial and Tao-like. And kindness is our common denominator, it is the universal heavenly heart.

 

 

[Earl Grey]

23 minutes ago, Sebastian said:

 

 

This is very true Luke. I was once put off by a particular Master because I knew he was driving around in sports cars. Apparently he had made a lot of money from TCM, establishing universities in the West and had various businesses. And I just couldn't reconcile the fact he was driving sports cars with being a Taoist lineage Master. I didn't have much respect for him to be honest, but I was wrong. Because his mind was not tainted. Owning luxury items is not against the Tao - what matters is if it affects one's mind. This guy was busting his ass off to make a contribution to the world in the medical field and deserved every penny he made, and here I was judging his preferred choice of cars, as proof he was somewhat still materialistic compared to me/us. And I wasn't doing even close to the contribution to the world than he was. Making money is just part of the path too. Contrary to the popular belief, it is not more spiritual to be living in the streets or relying on others. So although owning some green paper may have nothing to do with Dao or enlightenment, at the end of the day you still need to find a way to get some, and you don't want to be a burden to society.

 

I also agree it's hard to get a clear picture of something when you only have partial information. One side of the coin is always missing. That's why the intellect is so active, it tries to extrapolate. Judging is like flipping a coin with imperfect information. Sometimes we are right, relatively right, but sometimes we are dead wrong. And one side of a coin or of an issue can never be the final judgment on a person's character. As Silent Thunder stated, only the Divine knows what's going on, only the Divine has information that isn't partial.  I might have a personal opinion about someone, but I know that my opinion isn't the final judgement, and I am not one to judge that person's worth. People will come and go along the ride, in DaoBums and elsewhere.... Some will inspire you, others mistreat you. But personally no matter how I am treated, I vow to follow kindness as others have suggested. Only kindness is constant, only kindness is whole, impartial and Tao-like. And kindness is our common denominator, it is the universal heavenly heart.

 

 

 

These answers might interest you from these posts: 

 

 

15. What is the #1 thing that TDB needs now?

Image: Congregating in a mess hall, eating and enjoying Christmas and Thanksgiving-like atmospheres where we all acknowledge why we are here, we are a good community and family, share food with one another, give gifts, and appreciate that joy. We are all a good group who ultimately wish to be our best, but we are caught up in who works best in what context and who is right and who is wrong. 

 

16. If there is something that we need to be asking that we all want to ask but don't know the words or what it is, show us what the question is and what the answer is.

"How can I accept I am unable to encourage others to beware of things that would harm them?"

 

Accept that we are here just like when a woman comes into the clinic and says her son or daughter was unable to listen to them. We are not their parents and we as parents are not the ones who control them (our children) or what they do. We accept them as triage and guide them as we are welcome to work with them only as they accept that we are here to help them.

 

And then this post: 

 

 

 

15. What is the #1 thing that TDB needs now? 

 

  Hexagram card

 

 

16. If there is something that we need to be asking that we all want to ask but don't know the words or what it is, show us what the question is and what the answer is.

 

Lovers 

 

 

[senseless virtue]

6 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

 

Minus the actual help part, this reminds me of a funny anecdote I read in Terry Kleeman's introduction to A God's Own Tale, about some students trying to summon Lu Dongbin:

 

A group of students had gathered at a phoenix [spirit writing] altar to ask their fortunes. The phoenix wrote, "Drunkard Zhao has arrived." They all cursed him, saying, "We invited Transcendent Lu. HOw dare a savage ghost interfere! We are going to request that the great transcendent's sword behead you!" The phoenix halted, then began again, writing, "The Daoist Dongbin happened to be passing by. What do you want to ask?" The students solemnly bowed twice, then asked about their fates in the examination. The phoenix wrote, "Rub more ink." Thereupon each person prepared ink on his inkstone and in a moment they had filled a bowl. Kneeling, they asked how they should use it. The phoenix said, "You students divide it up and drink it, then hear my pronouncement." They all divided the ink and drank it. When they had finished, the phoenix wrote in large characters, "Normally you do not study; now you drink ink at the last moment. I am not Patriarch Lu; I am still Drunkard Zhao!" The students were mortified and destroyed the altar.

 

Praise Drunkard Zhao for his wise and kind intervention and scaring the silly kids away from the Ouija board!

 

2 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Thanks SirPalomides, a good illustration, I'm afraid I saw the punchline coming, but still the message is clear.  If you are dealing with a particularly powerful being it is easy for it to be able to manifest a deceptive appearance, and even people who have advanced training can be deceived.  The matter is complex, even here we recently had two people claiming to be magicians weigh in on opposite sides of the Jeff issue.  Finally, in bringing these issues up, I am not saying that they apply to the OP personally, but that there are certainly some aspects of his story which are suspicious.  It might be useful to post on these ideas in a thread of their own, but I don't have the time now to give it the attention it deserves.

 

I recently wrote something relevant on this topic, please take a look: