Limahong Posted February 16, 2020 28 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said: Would you kindly give me a little elaboration of your experiential perspective? Hi RD, Yes... feelings more than words. - Anand Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReturnDragon Posted February 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, steve said: Only two? Please define those two and demonstrate that all other ways to describe internal human function are incorrect. Hello Steve, WOW You are throwing me too many things all at once. Would you please change your questioning style in the near future? Thanks! FYI I only respond to the subject matter within the scope of the OP. Yes, only two ways. In the TDB forum, we are only dealing TCM vs modern science. However. I think it is too soon to go into the climax of the discussion. I would like hear more from others and handle it one by one. Hopeful, at the end of the discussion in the thread, everything will be cleared up. Thank you! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cleansox Posted February 16, 2020 59 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said: Normal people do not breathe as much oxygen as Qigong or Taiji practitioners do. This is no longer a physiological truth, it has been falsified. Unless you have a pulmonary disease, the amount of blood oxygen is not the defining factor. Regulatory system function on the other hand. As in: Regulate the body. Regulate the breath. Regulate the mind. The basics of internal arts. 59 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said: The practitioners increase the number of mitochondria in their bodies. Reference? 59 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said: That means they can produce more energy. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted February 16, 2020 34 minutes ago, steve said: In fact, science is rooted in doubt. Hi steve, Yes. - Anand Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted February 16, 2020 16 hours ago, ReturnDragon said: Hello, TDB It has been quite awhile we talk about Chi with the ancient Chinese concepts. I was wondering is anyone would like to relate these concepts to modern science. IMO There must be a co-relationship between them. To me, the first thing comes into my mind when speaking about energy is mitochondria. Please read this article and see what you think? Do you think Qigong, ZZ or Tai Chi practice has anything to do with the mitochondria in our body cells? Ref: https://coachcalorie.com/increase-mitochondrial-density/ Tentatively, as I am no expert in TCM etc. I would say if by energy you mean qi - then the body does not create it but the other way round. Qi projects or precipitates body - and bodily processes replicate qi processes (as in 'as above so below' - microcosm/macrocosm). So the energy processes in the body reflect the nature of qi - but qi is non physical - its most condensed form (but still non physical being jing). The mitochondria are are actually descended from micro-organisms which once independent entered into a symbiotic relationship with our cells - as the cells were good at DNA reproduction and mitochondria at the chemistry of 'food' i.e. those chemicals which store and release high energy bonds allowing life. So every cell in our body has these two lineages - are double cells - which is very yin/yang I guess. Sorry if garbled - but just some thoughts. 3 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted February 16, 2020 16 minutes ago, Apech said: So every cell in our body has these two lineages - are double cells - which is very yin/yang I guess. Hi Apech, For me "yin/yang" are elemental and fundamental in Taoism. - Anand Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, ReturnDragon said: Hello Steve, WOW You are throwing me too many things all at once. Would you please change your questioning style in the near future? Thanks! FYI I only respond to the subject matter within the scope of the OP. You can take your time and respond as you see fit. My style doesn’t change much. Everything I’ve posted is within the scope of the OP. Quote Yes, only two ways. In the TDB forum, we are only dealing TCM vs modern science. Modern science has many branches that are relevant to the OP. Quote However. I think it is too soon to go into the climax of the discussion. I’m starting with your most basic assumptions. You can ignore those if you choose. Quote I would like hear more from others and handle it one by one. Hopeful, at the end of the discussion in the thread, everything will be cleared up. 🤞🏽 Quote Thank you! Edited February 17, 2020 by steve 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted February 16, 2020 1 hour ago, ReturnDragon said: Hello Steve, WOW You are throwing me too many things all at once. PS - science can be a bitch! 😉 1 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cleansox Posted February 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, steve said: PS - science can be a bitch! 😉 An ungreateful bitch, remorseless and ever changeing. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted February 16, 2020 6 minutes ago, steve said: Science can be a bitch! Hi steve, Does it bite? I tend to distance myself from... - Anand Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Limahong Posted February 16, 2020 11 minutes ago, Cleansox said: An ungreateful bitch... Hi Cleansox, ungreateful ! - Anand Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cleansox Posted February 16, 2020 Both are equally valid 😁 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted February 16, 2020 13 hours ago, ReturnDragon said: Actually, we only have one system which is our body. However, we do have two ways to describe its internal function. Agree? It's been addressed already by @steve with clarity and respect. But I feel compelled to share on this (to me) very false notion of human bodies being one system. How to seperate meaningfully (not arbritrarily) the clear dividing line between my body and the environment? The avocados I just ate, are from a farm about 45 miles north of here. The bacon was from a farm about 500 miles away. The air I'm inhaling originated who knows when? Tens of thousands of years ago? Eons ago... and been in the lungs of millions of other humans, animals, insects and plants. My body is an amalgam of the ten thousand things, all recycled and recycling with no clear dividing line. Those avocados and the flesh of those pigs, is not turning me into pig and avocado. They are transitioning into human, even though if you look in my body, you will not ever find a 'human element'. My body is made of the same elemental parts as all the other aspects of reality. It is only the arrangement of those parts that we identify as human. The pattern is recognizable... as is the pattern of a whirlpool... But is a whirlpool a thing, when you consider the molecules flowing through it every second? Is it a system separate from the river? Any attempt to distinguish organism from environment is to me a practice in myopia... and utterly dependent on the level of magnification of the perceptual mind doing to perceiving. We are all of us, flowing verbs. Proven with each inhale/exhale. My one body, is a collection of 5 trillion individual life forms, each with a tribal affiliation and its own life force, process and cycle. ok rant over... phew... that came on suddenly... may just delete this soon, but as I said, compelled to get this out. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cleansox Posted February 16, 2020 1 hour ago, ReturnDragon said: Hopeful, at the end of the discussion in the thread, everything will be cleared up. That is not likely. This is a spiritual forum, and the process has already started to make the OP such a large subject that this will likely end like a big mess. But please go on, you considered the mitochondria. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReturnDragon Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Cleansox said: This is no longer a physiological truth, it has been falsified. Unless you have a pulmonary disease, the amount of blood oxygen is not the defining factor. Regulatory system function on the other hand. As in: Regulate the body. Regulate the breath. Regulate the mind. The basics of internal arts. Reference? Somehow, I am banned to this site on my computer. Would you please go google abdominal breathing and read about it. Edited February 16, 2020 by ReturnDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted February 16, 2020 11 minutes ago, silent thunder said: It's been addressed already by @steve with clarity and respect. But I feel compelled to share on this (to me) very false notion of human bodies being one system. How to seperate meaningfully (not arbritrarily) the clear dividing line between my body and the environment? The avocados I just ate, are from a farm about 45 miles north of here. The bacon was from a farm about 500 miles away. The air I'm inhaling originated who knows when? Tens of thousands of years ago? Eons ago... and been in the lungs of millions of other humans, animals, insects and plants. My body is an amalgam of the ten thousand things, all recycled and recycling with no clear dividing line. Those avocados and the flesh of those pigs, is not turning me into pig and avocado. They are transitioning into human, even though if you look in my body, you will not ever find a 'human element'. My body is made of the same elemental parts as all the other aspects of reality. It is only the arrangement of those parts that we identify as human. The pattern is recognizable... as is the pattern of a whirlpool... But is a whirlpool a thing, when you consider the molecules flowing through it every second? Is it a system separate from the river? Any attempt to distinguish organism from environment is to me a practice in myopia... and utterly dependent on the level of magnification of the perceptual mind doing to perceiving. We are all of us, flowing verbs. Proven with each inhale/exhale. My one body, is a collection of 5 trillion individual life forms, each with a tribal affiliation and its own life force, process and cycle. ok rant over... phew... that came on suddenly... may just delete this soon, but as I said, compelled to get this out. I hope you don’t delete. Once out these little poems (can feel trite or presumptuous to the discursive mind but they ) have a life and may serve as a little yeast cell for someone. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cleansox Posted February 16, 2020 10 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said: Somehow, I am banned to this site on my computer. Would please go google abdominal breathing and read about it. I know quite a lot about abdominal breathing. My earlier statement still stands. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReturnDragon Posted February 16, 2020 6 minutes ago, Cleansox said: I know quite a lot about abdominal breathing. My earlier statement still stands. Go to: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213422016300725 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ilumairen Posted February 16, 2020 Hi @ReturnDragon, are you trying to guide the members reading here to what you view as a foregone conclusion, or actually engage in an open sort of exploration and dialogue? : curiosity : 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReturnDragon Posted February 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, ilumairen said: Hi @ReturnDragon, are you trying to guide the members reading here to what you view as a foregone conclusion, or actually engage in an open sort of exploration and dialogue? : curiosity : All of the above. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) Spoiler Edited February 17, 2020 by steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cleansox Posted February 16, 2020 17 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said: Go to: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213422016300725 Aerobics is good for the elderly to enhance mitochondrial function? Nothing about abdominal breathing, and when it comes to abdominal breathing, increased blood oxygenation is not the main mechanism for increased energy unless you have some sort of disease, for example with the lungs. But nice try. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReturnDragon Posted February 16, 2020 Just now, Cleansox said: Aerobics is good for the elderly to enhance mitochondrial function? Nothing about abdominal breathing, and when it comes to abdominal breathing, increased blood oxygenation is not the main mechanism for increased energy unless you have some sort of disease, for example with the lungs. But nice try. Please don't jump the gun yet. It is about how exercise is affecting the quality and quantity of the mitochondria. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cleansox Posted February 16, 2020 Yes, but you changed subjects. And the title on the thread, which means I am out. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted February 16, 2020 (edited) Peace Edited February 17, 2020 by steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
