Working with the energy field/surface and taiji ball

[dwai]

My bro and I met after many days to play taijiquan drills. We worked with many things but recorded a small part of our session. Our videos are unedited and so be warned of some ‘sacre bleu’ moments. 
 

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

Feel free to comment or ask questions. 

Edited February 20, 2020 by dwai

[ReturnDragon]

Hi, dwai
Do you consider what you two are doing is fajin?

[rideforever]

7 hours ago, dwai said:

My bro and I met after many days to play taijiquan drills.

Cool stuff you are luck to have a brother you can work with, it's all good.

[dwai]

3 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

Hi, dwai
Do you consider what you two are doing is fajin?

Some of it. Mainly we’re practicing drills of using a Qi ball or the Qi field (or two - one yin and one yang). The other person just happens to be attached, and so moves. It is could be called ‘using indirect power’. 

[rideforever]

18 minutes ago, dwai said:

drills

 

Have you tried to do drills without physical contact, I would be interested in your results. 
Also in relation to normal drills can you make any shape you want ?  Sphere or knife or whatever ?  What about is you transmit alchemising energy to somebody else ?  Or the spirit ?

[dwai]

12 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

Have you tried to do drills without physical contact, I would be interested in your results. 
 

Yes we have. It works. Maybe next time my friends and I get together,  I’ll post a video on this. I find it a bit harder to do, in that it usually leaves me with a bit of a headache. My master says it’s because we’re using our own jin for it instead of using the energy that pervades everything. 

Quote

Also in relation to normal drills can you make any shape you want ?  Sphere or knife or whatever ?  What about is you transmit alchemising energy to somebody else ?  Or the spirit ?

Yes on shapes but really it is not about ‘fighting’, more about exploration of energetics for us. 
 

WRT tranmission - yes. I would call it jin transmission — in the sense, send a feeling/information to the ‘other’ person. That is how jin is made to be “heavy/light/float/sink/spiral/cutting“ etc. It literally is making an intention, such as, “I’m going to make my opponent float”, evoke the feeling of floating in your heart and sending it to the other person. It sounds sequential but is instantaneous — Intend-Evoke-Send.

 

 

[rideforever]

15 minutes ago, dwai said:

instantaneous

 

I have been thinking today about Chen energetic principles and the difference with Yiquan.
My questions to you were about ... what more can you do ?  What useful things can you do with this energy in practice ... not necessarily for fighting.

One thing I was thinking today was that one of the most important goals is to educate the energy mind.  Just like the thinking mind in the head, the energy mind in LDT needs an education.  Chen does this nicely with each movement in the forms being a micro form with the energy making a different pattern.  Each move in the form is the energy making a particular pattern.  So by doing a form of 80 moves or so ... the energy mind has to learn to make 80 patterns, and this is very good for its development.  (of course the great problem is that the mind in the head will take over constantly and you do it from the head - this is where too much talk of alignment and control and rooting and what not comes from ... people doing it from the head.  This is why very slow Chan Si Gong is required to constantly drop from the head into the belly so that the energy-mind can do it without the head at all.  It is like developing a second brain in the belly - the head mind constantly steals it.)  So the Chen forms if done correctly are an education of the energy-mind, a very beautiful way to do things.  But it is not a general purpose energy-mind education because Chen uses a particular circular energy shape.  Chen's particular circular shape  works well with the anatomy of the human body.  Other traditions use different shapes, but should be also done in the same methodology ... from the belly-mind and not from the head ... as they are all training the energy-mind that is the purpose, at least a main purpose.  Other purposes include body mind integration, the training of mental awareness of the body, and spiritual cultivation which means the spiritual aspect of the LDT.

 “heavy/light/float/sink/spiral/cutting“  I feel is a lower form of practice which involves training a general shape for the energy field.  In Tai Chi forms you are emanating energy from the LDT through the entire body through a particular movement using all your limbs and torso which is much more complex then training "just be heavy".  That seems to be the difference.

Another thought is that beating people and push hands is not a very good way to prove that your energy-mind is developed, but it is useful as sanity check from time to time.

To train the energy-mind whilst the head-mind is constantly interfering in this world is very challenging.

Those are some views.

 

[dwai]

5 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

I have been thinking today about Chen energetic principles and the difference with Yiquan.
My questions to you were about ... what more can you do ?  What useful things can you do with this energy in practice ... not necessarily for fighting.

The energy can be used in healing and also in transforming the quality of our mind -- to be able to use the energy in this way requires a clarity and purification of the mind. Development of the heart-mind and the intent. I've written about this many times before -- it is required for real spiritual work. Without clarity of the mind and opening of the spiritual heart, real spiritual work cannot happen.

5 minutes ago, rideforever said:

One thing I was thinking today was that one of the most important goals is to educate the energy mind.  Just like the thinking mind in the head, the energy mind in LDT needs an education.  Chen does this nicely with each movement in the forms being a micro form with the energy making a different pattern.  Each move in the form is the energy making a particular pattern.  So by doing a form of 80 moves or so ... the energy mind has to learn to make 80 patterns, and this is very good for its development.  

That is a good preliminary practice -- in our system we'll call it the basic/foundational practice. 

5 minutes ago, rideforever said:

This is why very slow Chan Si Gong is required to constantly drop from the head into the belly so that the energy-mind can do it without the head at all.  It is like developing a second brain in the belly - the head mind constantly steals it.)  So the Chen forms if done correctly are an education of the energy-mind, a very beautiful way to do things.  But it is not a general purpose energy-mind education because Chen uses a particular circular energy shape.  Chen's particular circular shape  works well with the anatomy of the human body.  Other traditions use different shapes, but should be also done in the same methodology ... from the belly-mind and not from the head ... as they are all training the energy-mind that is the purpose, at least a main purpose.  Other purposes include body mind integration, the training of mental awareness of the body, and spiritual cultivation which means the spiritual aspect of the LDT.

Yeah it is very good.  

We don't do silk reeling, but silk 'pulling'. Similar concept but different at the same time. 

5 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 “heavy/light/float/sink/spiral/cutting“  I feel is a lower form of practice which involves training a general shape for the energy field.  In Tai Chi forms you are emanating energy from the LDT through the entire body through a particular movement using all your limbs and torso which is much more complex then training "just be heavy".  That seems to be the difference.

 

Actually being heavy is not a good thing at all. The rule of 4 oz moves 1000 lbs is very much a requisite condition of taijiquan. The only way to do it correctly is using energetic way.  

 

Forms are great -- LDT is great, but are a preliminary gate to enter. Taijiquan process goes this way (how I've been taught) -- We go from no form (novice) to form (intermediate) to no form (mastery). In the first case, the novice knows nothing and has 'no form'. S/he learns the forms and practices, works on training the LDT, becomes sensitive to qi/jin etc (form). After the forms have been internalized and the energies therein assimilated, no form is required anymore. Wardoff is not a form but an expression of energy. Similarly rollback, press, split etc etc. One should be able to roll back with a thumb, wardoff with a single finger, etc etc. 

5 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

Another thought is that beating people and push hands is not a very good way to prove that your energy-mind is developed, but it is useful as sanity check from time to time.

To train the energy-mind whilst the head-mind is constantly interfering in this world is very challenging.

Those are some views.

 

Ah I see... 

 

Push hands is a great tool to develop taijiquan skills. Without push hands, you can't develop any serious skill.

 

If you can't do it with another person on the other side, you've only deluded yourself into thinking your energy-mind is developed (imho). Many people think they've attained "mastery" in their forms -- forms look amazing...beautiful, powerful. Then put another person on the other side of those very forms, and out of the window it all goes. Body becomes tense, adrenaline rushes into the blood stream and all grace, all beauty vanishes into thin air. 

[rideforever]

No form simply means that the energy-mind is educated and can move on its own.  But it seems from what you say that TaiChi practitioners do not embody their energy-mind ... they see their bodies moving and say it moves on its own or with no form - which means they don't really feel their identity in the belly.  It is the same with people who say they are in no-mind, it means that they don't embody their higher mind ... what they notice is that the normal mind is not there ... so they say no-mind ... but they are unable to feel understand or embody the higher mind.

 

Taking the analogy a little further of educating the head-mind and the energy-mind.  Can you educate your head-mind at school by fighting people with it, arguing and debating ?  Well to a certain extent you can, at the very beginning ... but soon you realise that it's mostly for show and people who win are just charismatic personalities who can play the crowd.  People do not really communicate they just want to appear to win.  The greatest thinkers with highly educated head-minds were mostly self-reliant and individualistic shunning crowds ... many of them grew up isolated ... in other words at the beginning of the educaton of their head-mind they did it alone, or with careful guidance.  Using that as an analogy I would say that fighting with the energy-mind, so called push hands, is not really very good ... only useful to sanity check from time to time.  And serious practitioners should educate their energy-mind in the same way as great philosophers educated their head-mind ... they did so on their own and because they loved knowledge and wisdom and needed it to breathe.  

 

[dwai]

11 minutes ago, rideforever said:

No form simply means that the energy-mind is educated and can move on its own.  But it seems from what you say that TaiChi practitioners do not embody their energy-mind ... they see their bodies moving and say it moves on its own or with no form - which means they don't really feel their identity in the belly.  It is the same with people who say they are in no-mind, it means that they don't embody their higher mind ... what they notice is that the normal mind is not there ... so they say no-mind ... but they are unable to feel understand or embody the higher mind.

 

Taking the analogy a little further of educating the head-mind and the energy-mind.  Can you educate your head-mind at school by fighting people with it, arguing and debating ?  Well to a certain extent you can, at the very beginning ... but soon you realise that it's mostly for show and people who win are just charismatic personalities who can play the crowd.  People do not really communicate they just want to appear to win.  The greatest thinkers with highly educated head-minds were mostly self-reliant and individualistic shunning crowds ... many of them grew up isolated ... in other words at the beginning of the educaton of their head-mind they did it alone, or with careful guidance.  Using that as an analogy I would say that fighting with the energy-mind, so called push hands, is not really very good ... only useful to sanity check from time to time.  And serious practitioners should educate their energy-mind in the same way as great philosophers educated their head-mind ... they did so on their own and because they loved knowledge and wisdom and needed it to breathe.  

 

Ok 👌🏾 

[ReturnDragon]

4 hours ago, dwai said:

Some of it. Mainly we’re practicing drills of using a Qi ball or the Qi field (or two - one yin and one yang). The other person just happens to be attached, and so moves. It is could be called ‘using indirect power’. 

I see you both have lots of jin in the body. I saw you two, to begin with, it was either lots of pulling or pushing real hard. Can you indicate where is the time slot, in the videos, that both had applied the yin-yang application?

[rideforever]

Some of the great philosophers were given specialist teachers who did challenge them ... I suppose being an indoor student is the equivalent, then you can be challenged and pushed to achieve but from somebody who cares about you.

Martial power or even healing power cannot fully represent the development of the energy-mind because the energy mind is about more than those two things.  But martial arts is a good avenue for its development especially given the cowardice inherent in the species.

All high arts need to be concealed within things that make sense in this crazy world.

[dwai]

5 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

I see you both have lots of jin in the body. I saw you two, to begin with, it was either lots of pulling or pushing real hard. Can you indicate where is the time slot, in the videos, that both had applied the yin-yang application?

We were neither pulling hard or pushing hard. It was mostly energetic.  
 

The physical strength of the recipient was being returned back using energetics. 

Edited February 20, 2020 by dwai

[ReturnDragon]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

 It was mostly energetic.  

Please explain that.

Can you indicate where is the time slot, in the videos, that both had applied the yin-yang application?

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

Please explain that.

Can you indicate where is the time slot, in the videos, that both had applied the yin-yang application?

We’re talking through out both the videos about what we were working on. 
When we say “ball” we mean “generating an energetic ball” (call it taiji ball). Yin and yang happens when we split the ball or compress (press). When the ball is substantial the mind is unsubstantial.

 

when we say “field” we mean the energetic field of the person. 
 

when we say “surface” we mean the energy pervading through space all around us.  
 

indirect power works via the energy “outside the body” inducing physical movement rather than from within (like Qi ‘hydraulics’). 
 

lmk if that helped  

Edited February 20, 2020 by dwai

[ReturnDragon]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

Taijiquan process goes this way (how I've been taught) -- We go from no form (novice) to form (intermediate) to no form (mastery). In the first case, the novice knows nothing and has 'no form'. S/he learns the forms and practices, works on training the LDT, becomes sensitive to qi/jin etc (form). After the forms have been internalized and the energies therein assimilated, no form is required anymore.

Yes, the jin(勁, explosive force) is the dominant factor to replace the forms. So, to speak! The forms are needed to practice to train the body to develop the jin. Once, I was told by my teacher that I should be careful how and whom I touch after years of practice. You don't know your own strength by then. Especially, when you push a child. The child can fly off few feet away. Indeed, that is the power of jin.
 

Edited February 20, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[ReturnDragon]

On 2/20/2020 at 6:36 AM, rideforever said:

What useful things can you do with this energy in practice ... not necessarily for fighting.

IMHO
You can lift a lot more weights than before.
You can push the heavy glass doors, a lot easier, in a department store.
You can stand on your feet a lot longer without getting fatigue than others
You can chop the chicken head with one blow, with a knife of course; and cut up the whole chicken in 5 minutes or less.

To add:
You can use all that energy on your woman.
 

Edited February 22, 2020 by ReturnDragon
To add one more thing which is very important.

[ReturnDragon]

On 2/20/2020 at 5:28 AM, dwai said:

Some of it. Mainly we’re practicing drills of using a Qi ball or the Qi field (or two - one yin and one yang). The other person just happens to be attached, and so moves. It is could be called ‘using indirect power’. 

The 8 Fajin principles:
Ref:

Please go here to see the translations:
http://discuss.yangfamilytaichi.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4197&hilit=fajin&start=30#p17065
 

Edited February 22, 2020 by ReturnDragon
To add translations.

[ReturnDragon]

On 2/20/2020 at 5:28 AM, dwai said:

Mainly we’re practicing drills of using a Qi ball or the Qi field (or two - one yin and one yang).

Hi, dwai
With all respect, may I have your permission to go into the yin-yang aspect of this thread? Or someone else is interested!

Edited February 22, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[rideforever]

On 20/02/2020 at 8:42 PM, ReturnDragon said:

The 8 Fajin principles:

 

Translation in English ?

[KuroShiro]

On 2/20/2020 at 2:09 PM, dwai said:

Yes we have. It works. Maybe next time my friends and I get together,  I’ll post a video on this. I find it a bit harder to do, in that it usually leaves me with a bit of a headache. My master says it’s because we’re using our own jin for it instead of using the energy that pervades everything. 

 

Do you know how one makes that jump? Is it a question of more practice, reaching higher levels or is it related to Yi?

[ReturnDragon]

5 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

Translation in English ?

Go here to see the translations:
http://discuss.yangfamilytaichi.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4197&hilit=fajin&start=30#p17065

[dwai]

33 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

Do you know how one makes that jump? Is it a question of more practice, reaching higher levels or is it related to Yi?

Mainly becoming more proficient with harmonizing with and being able to use what my master calls “surface energy”. He’s given some meditations that help improve our ability to work with this energy. 

[ReturnDragon]

59 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

Do you know how one makes that jump? Is it a question of more practice, reaching higher levels or is it related to Yi?

Can you put in the time, in the video, to indicate which jump that you are talking about?

@dwai How long have you been practiced Taijiquan?

Edited February 22, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[ReturnDragon]

35 minutes ago, dwai said:

Mainly becoming more proficient with harmonizing with and being able to use what my master calls “surface energy”. He’s given some meditations that help improve our ability to work with this energy. 

What is that mean?
He's given some meditations to whom? To you or himself?
 

Edited February 22, 2020 by ReturnDragon