Working with the energy field/surface and taiji ball

[Wu Ming Jen]

Hi Dawi,  I like the video and I know it is for demonstration and gentle as it should be . My question is, are both of you able to neutralize the force so that it has no effect as well? 

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Hi Dawi,  I like the video and I know it is for demonstration and gentle as it should be . My question is, are both of you able to neutralize the force so that it has no effect as well? 

Yes , unless of course it is someone who’s more skilled than us, like our Master (and others I’m sure). 

[ReturnDragon]

There is no mystery about push-hand. It is the principle of yin-yang or the law of physics. For example, If two people are pulling a rope with equal strength, then, one person let go the rope suddenly. Hence, the other person will fall back. The person who pulls the rope is yang; the one who let go the rope is yin.

Another example is that when one person leaned to the side, that is the most vulnerable position to be off balanced. The opponent just need to add a little force in the same direction of the fall. Thus two force are aiding in one direction which will make the opponent fall.

If the opponent pressing against one's hands, one will low the hands a little bit. The opponent will tend to move back. As soon one senses the opponent tries to move back; one just give it a little uplift. It will push the opponent fallen backward. Again, two aiding forces are are working together to make the opponent to fall back.

BTW The sensing of the force of the opponent is called tingjin(聽勁).

[ReturnDragon]

12 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Hi Dawi,  I like the video and I know it is for demonstration and gentle as it should be . My question is, are both of you able to neutralize the force so that it has no effect as well? 

As soon you get yourself out of danger by moving the hostile force away, you had already neutralized that force which has no effect on you any longer.

[ReturnDragon]

1 hour ago, ReturnDragon said:

@dwai How long have you been practiced Taijiquan?

Please don't get me wrong. I see lots of jin(energy) in you, you must have been practiced very long time. Even though, we don't speak the same Taiji language, but you are doing the same thing as other Taiji players.

[Wu Ming Jen]

2 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

As soon you get yourself out of danger by moving the hostile force away, you had already neutralized that force which has no effect on you any longer.

Lead force to emptiness. force has only one direction. the 7 other directions are weak. Once the force is exhausted strike what is full.

 

Empty force, be on guard ,without skill one is sure to fail. This is much different than full physical force that only has one direction.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Wu Ming Jen

[ReturnDragon]

8 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

full physical force

 
One's body weight may be acted as the full physical force.
 

Edited February 22, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[dwai]

3 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

Please don't get me wrong. I see lots of jin(energy) in you, you must have been practiced very long time. Even though, we don't speak the same Taiji language, but you are doing the same thing as other Taiji players.

I’ve been practicing for about 20 years now. Yes there are many different types and levels of taijiquan.  Some stop at the physical level. Very good — leverage, timing, etc etc. Some go way beyond physicality into ‘mind boxing’. Some go even beyond. Taiji operates at multiple levels at the same time. The  ‘quan’ is what evolves and refines. 

 

[dwai]

3 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

As soon you get yourself out of danger by moving the hostile force away, you had already neutralized that force which has no effect on you any longer.

Neutralizing doesn’t require physical moving — there is a skill called hwa, where the incoming force is transformed into emptiness or returned back, redirected etc. It all happens internally and energetically. 

[ReturnDragon]

27 minutes ago, dwai said:

Neutralizing doesn’t require physical moving — there is a skill called hwa, where the incoming force is transformed into emptiness or returned back, redirected etc. It all happens internally and energetically. 

That is beyond my comprehensive level.

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

That is beyond my comprehensive level.

Appreciate your honesty. Hwa or hua Jin is the ability to transform incoming force by a skilled internal player. Initially we learn to do that by Moving and stepping, and then bh turning our waist, folding our joints etc. Progressively we go from that to being able to transform incoming force by directing it to the ground. Eventually we can transform it by releasing it into emptiness. But just as we can transform, we can also redirect. It is not a biomechanical thing — it involves being able to sense and access energetics at a very subtle level. 

[ReturnDragon]

9 minutes ago, dwai said:

hua Jin
it involves being able to sense and access energetics at a very subtle level. 

OK, I got it.
hua Jin is 化勁

able to sense is tingjin(聽勁).

access energetics  is 借力 (borrow strength)

[KuroShiro]

On 2/22/2020 at 4:56 PM, ReturnDragon said:

Can you put in the time, in the video, to indicate which jump that you are talking about?

 

It was not about a literal jump in the video.

The jump was from "using our own jin for it" to the "energy that pervades everything."

[ReturnDragon]

1 hour ago, KuroShiro said:

 

It was not about a literal jump in the video.

The jump was from "using our own jin for it" to the "energy that pervades everything."

Yes, it is about borrow the power of the opponent. As long the opponent is holding on you, you may borrow his power to aid you but against him. However, if the opponent let go of you, then, you cannot borrow his power.

In Taiji, it is called "借力打力", borrow power to counteract the same opposing force.

Edited February 23, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[dwai]

1 hour ago, ReturnDragon said:

Yes, it is about borrow the power of the opponent. As long the opponent is holding on you, you may borrow his power to aid you but against him. However, if the opponent let go of you, then, you cannot borrow his power.

In Taiji, it is called "借力打力", borrow power to counteract the same opposing force.

No it is not the same thing. It is literally working with the energy pervading space all around us and within us. 
 

We have to understand and be able to use Hua Jin and Na Jin first, before we can start to understand this. Even many who can use hua/hwa and na Jin are unable to get to this stage. 

PS: I thought I’d share my understanding of this so my response is more helpful. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by dwai

[ReturnDragon]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

No it is not the same thing. It is literally working with the energy pervading space all around us and within us. 

I understand that is your terminology you had learned from your master.

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

I understand that is your terminology you had learned from your master.

No, i didn’t mean to say it is a different terminology. I meant to say it is not the same thing. What was being referred to is Ling Kong Jin. 

[ReturnDragon]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

No, i didn’t mean to say it is a different terminology. I meant to say it is not the same thing. What was being referred to is Ling Kong Jin. 

In that case, you must point that out to me in your video by the time frame. Please!

[dwai]

Just now, ReturnDragon said:

In that case, you must point that out to me in your video by the time frame. Please!

I didn’t show it in the video  

[dwai]

Just now, dwai said:

I didn’t show it in the video  

You have misunderstood the question asked by @KuroShiro, who responded to my answer to another person on this discussion on whether and how we can use the ‘surface energy’ without physical touch.