there is no enlightenment in the future

[Bindi]

Yesterday I planted a seed, in a few days it will sprout, yesterday it was a seed, tomorrow it will be a tomato plant. It doesn’t remember it was a seed, nor did it imagine it might be a plant, it just transformed because of the conditions it found itself in, and is already something different in this moment from what it was yesterday. 

[old3bob]

things are bound by time, and "mind" is a vast thing...but no-thing is not mind but not nothing,  as alluded to with "Tao gave birth to the One" which I believe in Christian terms could be said to be "the first and the last"...

Edited February 24, 2020 by old3bob

[silent thunder]

memory of past happens now

fantasies of future happen now

 

there is only now

mind makes distinctions of its own accord

 

mind is also now

[old3bob]

I'd say mind appears and disappears being the thing that it is, granted almost no one wants to lose their mind (pun intended) identity yet it only lasts so long per time,  while the timeless Self is not dependent on or woven in time...

Edited February 24, 2020 by old3bob

[Limahong]

On 2/22/2020 at 5:49 PM, old3bob said:

there is no enlightenment in the future,  for such is only found or realized  now...

 

Yes into the moment ~ enlightened or otherwise.

 

On 2/23/2020 at 12:32 AM, liminal_luke said:

The goal is effortlessness

 

Yes ~ wuwei.

 

On 2/23/2020 at 2:00 AM, silent thunder said:

You are it... now... as you are.

 

Yes ~ it's now or never.

 

On 2/23/2020 at 2:00 AM, silent thunder said:

It's all right here, right now.

 

Yes ~ if not... next time.

 

On 2/23/2020 at 2:34 AM, old3bob said:

I'd say the false guru and true guru are worlds apart, so to speak.

 

Yes ~ so better to be your own guru without words?

 

11 hours ago, old3bob said:

We make a claims about our mind but it really belongs to "the mind", which is a connected tool for A-Z.  

 

Yes ~ A-Z becomes words.

 

On 2/23/2020 at 7:51 PM, old3bob said:

truth can see a lie but a lie is blind to truth.... 

 

Yes ~ a lie can be in white or colored...

 

 

 

[silent thunder]

local mind oscillates on and off, like a bellows.

universal mind... seems akin to an ocean on which local mind is one wave.

or a massive gem, of which, one facet is local silent thunder awareness.

each other facet being another local awareness/mind.

or one dew drop on Indra's Net.

 

at this point there appears to be no dimmer switch for local mind, it's experienced as on or off.

when thinking, experiencing... it's on.  when off... there is no residue, it's off, off.

what is thought about is irrelevant to the process.  a symptom.

good thought... bad thought... productive thought... demoralizing thought... all part of local mind story time.

 

for a while now, i practice no formal thinking meditations, nor achievement seeking, nor thought admonishment demonizing.

 

what arises, arises... then disperses.

what arises tends to disperse more readily when not engaged, fed, resisted or engaged by storymaking.

 

local mind oscillates like a bellows.

 

but universal mind?  hmm...  challenging for words to encompass...  seems to be ever-present, underlying all other unfoldings.

 

 

 

local mind relays a sense that awareness oscillates between active and inactive, local and universal, but paradoxically, this notion arises in local mind which is immured in storytime and unreliably interpretive and projective.

 

fascinating conversation @old3bob thanks for phrasing it and presenting it such.

 

the op and the title engages succincly in the one real process... unfolding in presence... now

 

what else is there but now?  as is?

beingness

 

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by silent thunder
added Indra's Net to the list

[Limahong]

1 minute ago, silent thunder said:

what else is there but now?

 

 

 

[Limahong]

2 hours ago, silent thunder said:

mind is also now

 

Hi Creighton,

 

Yes ~ mind you... it's now or never.

 

- Anand

 

[old3bob]

53 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

local mind oscillates on and off, like a bellows.

universal mind... seems akin to an ocean on which local mind is one wave.

or a massive gem, of which, one facet is local silent thunder awareness.

each other facet being another local awareness/mind.

or one dew drop on Indra's Net.

 

at this point there appears to be no dimmer switch for local mind, it's experienced as on or off.

when thinking, experiencing... it's on.  when off... there is no residue, it's off, off.

what is thought about is irrelevant to the process.  a symptom.

good thought... bad thought... productive thought... demoralizing thought... all part of local mind story time.

 

for a while now, i practice no formal thinking meditations, nor achievement seeking, nor thought admonishment demonizing.

 

what arises, arises... then disperses.

what arises tends to disperse more readily when not engaged, fed, resisted or engaged by storymaking.

 

local mind oscillates like a bellows.

 

but universal mind?  hmm...  challenging for words to encompass...  seems to be ever-present, underlying all other unfoldings.

 

 

 

local mind relays a sense that awareness oscillates between active and inactive, local and universal, but paradoxically, this notion arises in local mind which is immured in storytime and unreliably interpretive and projective.

 

fascinating conversation @old3bob thanks for phrasing it and presenting it such.

 

the op and the title engages succincly in the one real process... unfolding in presence... now

 

what else is there but now?  as is?

beingness

 

 

 

one might correlate "The One" in Taoism to "universal mind"  (or that containing all manifestation from the extremely and most subtle to the most gross)...yet to me even universal mind appears and disappears although on what could be called an unimaginable multi-verse scale and cosmic time period...(that also takes place in the twinkling of an eye)  so we have ,"Tao gave birth to the One" . or the implications made by the beautiful depiction of Shri Yantra.

[SirPalomides]

I believe the One is referring to the same thing as verse 21 where it says "within it there is an image." I believe this is also equivalent to li as discussed by the Cheng-Zhu school of Confucians, translated as "pattern" or "principle".

 

Going further afield, there is the Buddhist understanding of interpenetration of phenomena, as revealed in the metaphor of Indra's net, where phenomenon reflects and contains every other.

 

Going very far afield, the Byzantine theologian St Maximus the Confessor says that all created phenomena operate on the  basis of logoi, the pre-eternal thought-purposes of God which guide everything emanating from him and eventually lead them back to him. The Russian theologian Sergius Bulgakov built on this with his Sophiology, positing "Sophia," the Wisdom of God, as the pattern of creation contained within God's very nature, which also lays the groundwork for God to become man, and for man to become God.

[Bindi]

From an evolutionary psychology perspective “Language is a unique hallmark of the human species. Although many species can communicate in limited ways about things that are physically present, only humans can construct a full narrative characterization of events occurring outside of the here and now.” 
 

This ability is uniquely human, and has led to amazing advances for humanity, yet here it is considered an inferior trait? 

[Limahong]

On 2/25/2020 at 2:39 AM, old3bob said:

"The One" in Taoism

 

                                  

[old3bob]

btw, being that "The One" is not truly "immortal" per being born and thus also returning to the Tao after a cosmic cycle  (although being  extremely long lived beyond human understanding)...then all the wonderful and unique beings of the heavenly realms are also not fully immortal either although they too may exist for a cosmic cycle...The historic Buddha (to paraphrase) alluded to this when he asked Ananda three times if he wanted him to remain during the cosmic cycle but Ananda missed the Buddhas drift and then the historic Buddha moved on so to speak.   (although other Buddhist Saints or Deities choose to remain and help all beings during the cosmic cycle)   Anyway and considering that I'd say that only the Tao is fully "immortal" in meaning, thus the millions or quad trillions (?) of particular heavenly soul forms going about their business can not do so for ever and immortally or eternally, for there is only one Tao that they will also have to return to -- just as "The One" will do so at the end of said cycle. 

 

coming back to the context of the op one could then say there is no full "immortality" to be forged in a future to come, (although a relative one could be) thus full immortality can only be now.   

Edited February 26, 2020 by old3bob

[dawei]

On 2/24/2020 at 4:21 AM, Bindi said:

Yesterday I planted a seed, in a few days it will sprout, yesterday it was a seed, tomorrow it will be a tomato plant. It doesn’t remember it was a seed, nor did it imagine it might be a plant, it just transformed because of the conditions it found itself in, and is already something different in this moment from what it was yesterday. 

 

I am going to ask you to use your mind to remember a time when you did not use your mind.

 

Do you remember when doing something, there was not another thought in the entire world, history, etc... that came into your mind?

 

Is that just not remembering or is that just 'isness' ?

 

I don't know there is an answer or a proper question to it but just trying to make a point that the mind also, 'is'.

 

Interesting that you brought a plant into this as I've been watching my plants.  They seem to 'grow' given their environment and do they 'know' it or just 'be'.   For us, maybe that is akin to breathing.  

[dawei]

34 minutes ago, old3bob said:

btw, being that "The One" is not truly "immortal" per being born and thus also returning to the Tao after a cosmic cycle  (although being  extremely long lived beyond human understanding)...then all the wonderful and unique beings of the heavenly realms are also not fully immortal either although they too may exist for a cosmic cycle...The historic Buddha (to paraphrase) alluded to this when he asked Ananda three times if he wanted him to remain during the cosmic cycle but Ananda missed the Buddhas drift and then the historic Buddha moved on so to speak.   (although other Buddhist Saints or Deities choose to remain and help all beings during the cosmic cycle)   Anyway and considering that I'd say that only the Tao is fully "immortal" in meaning, thus the millions or quad trillions (?) of particular heavenly soul forms going about their business can not do so for ever and immortally or eternally, for there is only one Tao that they will also have to return to -- just as "The One" will do so at the end of said cycle. 

 

coming back to the context of the op one could then say there is no full "immortality" to be forged in a future to come, (although a relative one could be) thus full immortality can only be now.   

 

In this case, The One is a material thing... being born.  Tao is not.  

 

As an aside, I have long held to the concept of multiple "Ones" discussed among the ancients that get bundled together as One as well.  But if Tao is not material but conceptual, then can't there be a conceptual One?

 

I think this strays from your OP and main points of no full immortality except the immortal 'now'.  

[SirPalomides]

I think of the One a bit like the Christian Logos- begotten but not created, that is, not something that has a beginning or end, but an emanation of the Dao's eternity. Even if at the end of one cycle its is reabsorbed it will emanate again just as it is now, an invariable principle. And in the One is contained the pattern of everything that is, so everything- however trivial and fleeting- is in there. Hence Blake's world in a grain of sand, and eternity in an hour.

[dawei]

40 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

I think of the One a bit like the Christian Logos- begotten but not created, that is, not something that has a beginning or end, but an emanation of the Dao's eternity. Even if at the end of one cycle its is reabsorbed it will emanate again just as it is now, an invariable principle. And in the One is contained the pattern of everything that is, so everything- however trivial and fleeting- is in there. Hence Blake's world in a grain of sand, and eternity in an hour.

 

Careful quoting Blake... the incredible opening is a harrowing poem.   Which really seems the point.

 

So, One as you share is still conceptual, yes ?  

 

Or is is more like the [hidden] fabric that holds it all together.   This is then how I do tend to see Dao on some level.   

[silent thunder]

Lately I have the mental model that the zero point field is 'the One'.

Polarity of sub-atomic forces gives rise to the two and from the interactions of these, the myriad manifest.

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, SirPalomides said:

Blake's world in a grain of sand, and eternity in an hour.

 

 

Hi SirP,

 

I can figuratively link Blake's sand and hour to this...

 

 

 

But what is the difference/correlation/... between infinity and eternity?

Can I try and understand my question posed in terms of love?

Love ~ as heaven in a wild flower?

The wild flower ~ is the girl I love?

 

The answers to the above ~ are in the details...

 

 

 

Infinity/eternity ~ whose perspective...?

 

(A) 

 

(B)

 

(C)

.......

 

On 2/22/2020 at 5:49 PM, old3bob said:

there is no enlightenment in the future,  for such is only found or realized  now...

 

Hi old3bob,

 

Yes ~ when I am (a) in love (b) out of love (c) in between love (d) ...

 

- Anand

 

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

I think of the One a bit like the Christian Logos- begotten but not created, that is, not something that has a beginning or end, but an emanation of the Dao's eternity. Even if at the end of one cycle its is reabsorbed it will emanate again just as it is now, an invariable principle. And in the One is contained the pattern of everything that is, so everything- however trivial and fleeting- is in there. Hence Blake's world in a grain of sand, and eternity in an hour.

 

so yes, a "return" to Tao -- from which all never really left in an ultimate sense....

[Limahong]

2 minutes ago, old3bob said:

so yes, a "return" to Tao -- from which all never really left in an ultimate sense...

 

Yes ~ and love (Tao - Yin/Yang)...

 

 

[old3bob]

and not just a concept ...here is a partial analogy if you will:  the force of an electromagnetic field induced through a transformer and connected to wires on the other side comes out (or emanates) as voltage and amperage...reverse or "return" that connection and voltage and amperage then comes out the side as an electromagnetic field. 

Edited February 26, 2020 by old3bob

[old3bob]

2 minutes ago, Limahong said:

 

Yes ~ and love (Tao - Yin/Yang)...

 

 

 

that's cool!

[Limahong]

3 minutes ago, old3bob said:

here is a partial analogy if you will:  the force of an electromagnetic field induced through a transformer and and connected to wires on the other side comes out (or emanates) as voltage and amperage...reverse or "return" that connection and voltage and amperage then comes out the side as an electromagnetic field.

 

Yes - love (Tao - Yin/Yang) is electrifying.

[Limahong]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

Lately I have the mental model that the zero point field is 'the One'.

Polarity of sub-atomic forces gives rise to the two and from the interactions of these, the myriad manifest.

 

Hi Creighton,

 

Yes ~ I can identify with your words...

 

I came from 'the One'.

I am born of two - Papa & Mama.

When I am in love (Tao - Yin/Yang) - the myriad manifest.

 

- Anand