How/why does qigong work?

[alchemystical]

You can wave your arms around randomly and feel nothing yet if you wave them in a certain way you feel a very definite something. Why is this? How does this work? It feels like there is a specific order you need to do the moves in almost like turning a key in a lock, most keys will fit but not all can open the door.

 

Are there any books, resources or insight you can offer as to why this may be the case? I find this aspect almost as fascinating as the practice and so far I haven't encountered anyone who can answer this question.

[Earl Grey]

42 minutes ago, alchemystical said:

You can wave your arms around randomly and feel nothing yet if you wave them in a certain way you feel a very definite something. Why is this? How does this work? It feels like there is a specific order you need to do the moves in almost like turning a key in a lock, most keys will fit but not all can open the door.

 

Are there any books, resources or insight you can offer as to why this may be the case? I find this aspect almost as fascinating as the practice and so far I haven't encountered anyone who can answer this question.

Intent—qi follows yi.

[alchemystical]

4 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Intent—qi follows yi.

 

You sure about that? Whilst its a traditional saying that sound catchy doesn't it go against the whole principle of Wu Wei where one should set up the causes and allow the effects to arise of themselves? That in itself being an encapsulation of the principle of the Dao.

 

I once spoke a Sifu who was very against this kind of mental influence as intent or mood making because he said it created a situation for the practitioner to be carried away on the wings of delusion as opposed to true sensing. Taken to an extreme you see this displayed beautifully with so called "Chi masters" who are throwing invisible Hadokens at exceedingly compliant people who are flying around all over the place as they ooh and ahh at their collective delusion.

 

Getting back to my instruction I was told that if you can't feel it yet its because you aren't ready so keep walking along the path until the signs make themselves known and when they do, keep walking. From my perspective this qi follows yi approach creates a wide opening for egoic concepts of cultivation and the resulting foolishness to creep in plus there are a lot of forms that specifically stipulate empty presence is the desired state of practice.

[Starjumper]

21 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Intent—qi follows yi.

 

That doesn't really answer the question.  The devil's in the details, and this doesn't explain the basic principle behind moving chi kung or Zhan Zhuang.

 

It’s a secret.  Well not really.   Actually it is hidden in plain view, and it's astounding how everyone misses this basic principle, and how easy it is to hide things in plain view by telling people to look somewhere else.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, alchemystical said:

You can wave your arms around randomly and feel nothing yet if you wave them in a certain way you feel a very definite something. Why is this? How does this work? It feels like there is a specific order you need to do the moves in almost like turning a key in a lock, most keys will fit but not all can open the door.

 

Are there any books, resources or insight you can offer as to why this may be the case? I find this aspect almost as fascinating as the practice and so far I haven't encountered anyone who can answer this question.

 

I was thinking about writing a post about just this kind of thing but there was no thread to discuss it on.  Then by some marvelous stroke of synchronicity, you asked just the right question.  I'll think about it for awhile and write it offline, then post it.

[Earl Grey]

7 minutes ago, alchemystical said:

 

You sure about that? Whilst its a traditional saying that sound catchy doesn't it go against the whole principle of Wu Wei where one should set up the causes and allow the effects to arise of themselves? That in itself being an encapsulation of the principle of the Dao.

 

I once spoke a Sifu who was very against this kind of mental influence as intent or mood making because he said it created a situation for the practitioner to be carried away on the wings of delusion as opposed to true sensing. Taken to an extreme you see this displayed beautifully with so called "Chi masters" who are throwing invisible Hadokens at exceedingly compliant people who are flying around all over the place as they ooh and ahh at their collective delusion.

 

Getting back to my instruction I was told that if you can't feel it yet its because you aren't ready so keep walking along the path until the signs make themselves known and when they do, keep walking. From my perspective this qi follows yi approach creates a wide opening for egoic concepts of cultivation and the resulting foolishness to creep in plus there are a lot of forms that specifically stipulate empty presence is the desired state of practice.

 

As far as I have seen, even from Flying Phoenix to Fragrant qigong. But if you're already certain of your answers, I'll take a pass on saying anything more.

 

3 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

That doesn't really answer the question.  The devil's in the details, and this doesn't explain the basic principle behind moving chi kung or Zhan Zhuang.

 

It’s a secret.  Well not really.   Actually it is hidden in plain view, and it's astounding how everyone misses this basic principle, and how easy it is to hide things in plain view.

 

I gave an answer that was a basic principle, and ZZ in Yi Quan has both zero and light intention to heavy intention. It is a simple answer I got before that I found was best instead of overthinking things over the past ten years. Details come with experience and relative to what you practice, and LKC readers do ZZ quite differently from us in Xin Yi. There are all kinds of right, but I have found general principles consistently from practice. 

 

tl;dr: My answer worked for me and our school. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[rideforever]

I was thinking last week in relation to one of Dwai's threads ... that when we learn to count we use our fingers, but through using the body our intellectual mind develops.  We need to use the body before the intellectual mind can move on its own.

And it is the same with the energy-mind in the belly.  To educate it we must use our body first before it wakes up and can move on its own.

So that is one way our energy-mind is trained.

With qigong sometimes you simply drag or pull energy into the channels ... in a simpler way.

Qigong can be used to activate TCM formulae which again a different way.

With alchemy different types of energy are reacting together to create different effects, that is more complex type of work.

There are other ways as well which involve contacting higher energies.
Many things are called qigong.

The energy-mind training is in my opinion the "spiritual" one because it awakens something new within you, a new type of mind.

[alchemystical]

15 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

I was thinking about writing a post about just this kind of thing but there was no thread to discuss it on.  Then by some marvelous stroke of synchronicity, you asked just the right question.  I'll think about it for awhile and write it offline, then post it.

 

I am another you my friend, the threads appearance is evidence we're headed in the optimal direction and I await your perspective.

 

6 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

As far as I have seen, even from Flying Phoenix to Fragrant qigong. But if you're already certain of your answers, I'll take a pass on saying anything more.

 

 

I gave an answer that was a basic principle, and ZZ in Yi Quan has both zero and light intention to heavy intention. It is a simple answer I got before that I found was best instead of overthinking things over the past ten years. Details come with experience and relative to what you practice, and LKC readers do ZZ quite differently from us in Xin Yi. There are all kinds of right, but I have found general principles consistently from practice. 

 

tl;dr: My answer worked for me and our school. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

In one response you've totally changed my perception of you as I actually thought you were a decent guy but this makes you sound more than a bit pissy. I started this topic to discuss, not proclaim and what I said was a well reasoned counterpoint to your statement based on my current understanding.

 

Granted you could've got up on the wrong side of the bed, may still be feeling some kind of way about my previous reticence or I could simply be misinterpreting so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and see how you conduct yourself from here on out before deciding. If what I've said (or not said) offends you in some way feel free to ignore list me as I wouldn't wish to disturb your equanimity in any way with my presence as I will be asking lots of questions here so you will be seeing me around.

 

 

8 minutes ago, rideforever said:

I was thinking last week in relation to one of Dwai's threads ... that when we learn to count we use our fingers, but through using the body our intellectual mind develops.  We need to use the body before the intellectual mind can move on its own.

And it is the same with the energy-mind in the belly.  To educate it we must use our body first before it wakes up and can move on its own.

So that is one way our energy-mind is trained.

With qigong sometimes you simply drag or pull energy into the channels ... in a simpler way.

Qigong can be used to activate TCM formulae which again a different way.

With alchemy different types of energy are reacting together to create different effects, that is more complex type of work.

There are other ways as well which involve contacting higher energies.
Many things are called qigong.

The energy-mind training is in my opinion the "spiritual" one because it awakens something new within you, a new type of mind.

 

Hmm. That is an interesting perspective, using the lower to prime the higher so you may become familiar with the new space. I feel that is a very narrow true path beset on either sides by the potential for self deception and so is best walked by one who is already aware of the nature of the lower state/ego and has at least a cursory insight into their mind and how it works in order to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

Not to piss on anyones parade but as I said in my You Are Deluded thread I've seen so much bullshit and bullshitters in the fields of cultivation on my travels that I attempt to observe, learn and weed out these foibles from my own makeup and practice as they are universal in their nature, given the fact that we all have a similar makeup and wrestle against similar demons as we stroll along the path. To me simplicity is the key.

[Earl Grey]

1 minute ago, alchemystical said:

In one response you've totally changed my perception of you as I actually thought you were a decent guy but this makes you sound more than a bit pissy.

 

I'm just me, warts and all.

 

1 minute ago, alchemystical said:

I started this topic to discuss, not proclaim and what I said was a well reasoned counterpoint to your statement based on my current understanding.

 

And I gave you an answer, and it didn't appear satisfactory to you, so I can't really say much else since I don't know what you're trying to get at, and will let others chime in before seeing if there is anything worthwhile to mention. 

 

2 minutes ago, alchemystical said:

Granted you could've got up on the wrong side of the bed, may still be feeling some kind of way about my previous reticence or I could simply be misinterpreting so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and see how you conduct yourself from here on out before deciding.

 

Maybe.  

 

2 minutes ago, alchemystical said:

If what I've said (or not said) offends you in some way feel free to ignore list me as I wouldn't wish to disturb your equanimity in any way with my presence as I will be asking lots of questions here so you will be seeing me around.

 

No offense taken, no disturbance at all. If I have something to say, I will; if not, I don't and just listen if it interests me.  

[cheya]

This is a subject that has fascinated me for some time. For me, it is not just intent. Somehow, some ancients discovered that certain movements done a certain way start to move the body energy in palpable ways that develop patterns over time. After doing those movements for some time and becoming very familiar with the energies, I became able to activate and move those energies with just my intent.

When my energy is not so strong though, or my concentration not so good, I have to go back to the physical practices to get those energies moving again.

 

Stopping the mind seems to be the key, as well as my general level of...what? chi?    which reveals itself in my ability to stay focused and avoid the intrusion of thoughts.  Intent is different from thinking.

This thread could be really interesting and helpful if we can stay constructive in the conversation. Thanks to alchemystical for starting it...

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by cheya
sp

[rideforever]

What I been told is that the body structure to survive in the universe needs to be constant revitalised by the Source, and when we breathe it is the energy of the Source that is flowing up through the dantien into the body to revitalise the material of the body so it can survive in this hostile universe.  The physical breathing is a movement the body performs in response to the Qi rising from the dantien.  The ldt is the access "portal" of the Source into the body.  Through our impurity we have blockages in the flow and doing qigong improves the situation.

 

In terms of the effect to sitting meditation :  becoming sensitive to Qi takes you outside of the conventional mind which is a good start.  Next qigong can solidify your sense of identity, same if you do a lot of weight training ... you have the sense of your presence.  And this sense of stability is very useful when you meditation, it gives you a good beginning, a sense of stability.  The removal of impurities through qigong also reduces the disturbance of mind/emotions in sitting meditation.  These are intermediary benefits of qigong which assist sitting meditation.

 

[ReturnDragon]

1 hour ago, rideforever said:

The physical breathing is a movement the body performs in response to the Qi rising from the dantien.

 

This is the oldest Chinese Taoist myth was stuck in my head for a long time. However, it was puzzling me for half of my life. To investigate, we must start with an opened mind and disregard with everything that we had read. Then, use the modern science as our source of information. The key words, here, are breathing and Qi. 

 

Let's stay away from Qi for now and concentrate on the breathing. What is the source in the air which we need to survive every second and minute?

My answer is oxygen. Don't you thinking so?

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[liminal_luke]

Here´s my (nonexpert) take --

 

Energy follows body movement.  Movement is a language we can use to communicte with our energy body.  Perhaps this is true of all movement -- not sure -- but it seems to work best when the movement is done relatively slowly, in a relaxed state, with awareness.  Raise your outstretched arms slowly up to shoulder level, the chi goes up.  Lower your outstretched hands back to the level of your waist, the chi goes down.  Hold your palms over your lower belly, the chi gathers in the lower dan tien.  

 

It might help to know this theory, but detailed theoretical knowledge is not strictly necessary.  All that´s necessary is to do the movements -- the body will take it from there.  If the movements tell the body to move the chi in a way that´s conducive to health, health will result.

Edited February 23, 2020 by liminal_luke

[alchemystical]

1 hour ago, cheya said:

This is a subject that has fascinated me for some time. For me, it is not just intent. Somehow, some ancients discovered that certain movements done a certain way start to move the body energy in palpable ways that develop patterns over time. After doing those movements for some time and becoming very familiar with the energies, I became able to activate and move those energies with just my intent.

This thread could be really interesting and helpful if we can stay constructive in the conversation. Thanks to alchemystical for starting it...

 

 

The discovery of these movements and energy itself its absolutely fascinating, thats why I wish there were a real detailed history, theory and practical book about qigong instead of information scattered everywhere because its all so interesting. Granted they had no TVs so they entertained themselves with their selves but it really gets me thinking because you can take someone who knows no gong, get them to hold a few poses and boom, they feel the chi but if you randomly just position your arms, nothing. Its the significance, order, underlying rhythm that intrigues. Same when it comes to forms that have different types of breath control, how the heck did they discover that? That alone is mind boggling because the permutations of doing it randomly are immense and the measurements quite precise so how?

 

 

1 hour ago, rideforever said:

What I been told is that the body structure to survive in the universe needs to be constant revitalised by the Source, and when we breathe it is the energy of the Source that is flowing up through the dantien into the body to revitalise the material of the body so it can survive in this hostile universe.  The physical breathing is a movement the body performs in response to the Qi rising from the dantien.  The ldt is the access "portal" of the Source into the body.  Through our impurity we have blockages in the flow and doing qigong improves the situation.

 

 

Its interesting because in my experience I definitely agree that lifeforce comes in around Ming Men and it spins clockwise as it spirals up but there is also something more about the middle dan tien, I don't know if its like a step up transformer or its midpoint that is just amping the lower energy as it rises (which is what I suspect) but there definitely is something to it. Ming Men region blockages are also the reason for this whole back pain epidemic methinks as they rarely find anything physical and the people you quiz about it always note that the pain moves around. Oddly they don'y logically take it any further because moving pain can't be physical in nature unless you've got multiple issues and one is drowning out the other like the sun prevents us from seeing the stars.

 

3 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

It might help to know this theory, but detailed theoretical knowledge is not strictly necessary.  All that´s necessary is to do the movements -- the body will take it from there.  If the movements tell the body to move the chi in a way that´s conducive to health, health will result.

 

Surface level knowledge never has been, nor will be, enough for me. Spoke to a few masters and none of them could answer my questions either because they'd just done what they were told, never questioned therefore never learned and that in my eyes means they short changed themselves.

[ReturnDragon]

All this energy talks are from the old Chinese Taoist myths.

Our muscles moved by the control of the brain. The brain issue a signal which is called the "action potential" to the muscle to contract. As long the signals are continuously sending, the muscle will remain contracted. The muscle contraction requires energy; and this energy is ATP which is generated by the mitochondria in the body cells. The ATP collapse as soon the muscle contraction stops.

Energy is not from thin air. It was the mitochondria in the body cells use oxygen to decompose the glucose to produce ATP energy.

Ref: https://www.getbodysmart.com/muscle-contraction/excitation-contraction-coupling

Edited February 23, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[alchemystical]

6 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

All this energy talks are from the old Chinese Taoist myths.

Our muscles moved by the control of the brain. The brain issue a signal which is called the "action potential" to the muscle to contract. As long the signals are continuously sending, the muscle will remain contracted. The muscle contraction requires energy; and this energy is ATP which is generated by the mitochondria in the body cells. The ATP collapse as soon the muscle contraction stops.

Energy is not from thin air. It was the mitochondria in the body cells use oxygen to decompose the glucose to produce ATP energy.

 

Listen, I'll only say this once:

 

You've already proven multiple times you haven't got a clue what you're talking about so why no STFU and listen when grown folks are talking because you might actually learn something.

 

*ignore list*

 

Preserve your brain cells, chi and ATP people, add him to your ignore list too.

[rideforever]

23 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

 

If you would like to start a thread with your views on the myth of energy  than it can be discussed there, rather than in between other threads.

[Starjumper]

6 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

I gave an answer that was a basic principle, and ZZ in Yi Quan has both zero and light intention to heavy intention. It is a simple answer I got before that I found was best instead of overthinking things over the past ten years. Details come with experience and relative to what you practice, and LKC readers do ZZ quite differently from us in Xin Yi. There are all kinds of right, but I have found general principles consistently from practice. 

 

tl;dr: My answer worked for me and our school. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Every practice does something, so people say it works.  But something, or even anything, can make a person think they are on the path when in fact they are on a nice juicy detour.   So the question becomes, is that something useful in the long run, or will it lead to a dead end and bad habbits.  Notice word - dead.  Your statement of chi following intent is like saying chi will go to wherever you focus on, and it does, congatulations.  Passing out cigars all around.  This is the kind of thing that is done in the MCO and other similar practices, where a person visualizes (or if more adnvanced, uses intent) to make energy flow around their bodies.

 

Using intent with energy can be useful for some fighting applications, but still, I know from expereince that there is no need to focus on that, but rather focus on the intent of the physical movement itself.  If a person practices a proper chi kung that is more than enough, and will net them more chi power for the fighting application too.  Anyway, fighting applications doesn’t apply to energy cultivation via movement, so doesn’t belong in this thread.

 

Using intent to direct chi is counterproductive to the goals of Zhan Zhuang, one of the main ones being cultivating chi power.  Counterproductive.  It’s like playing a video game while trying to do something else.

 

As you know Xian Gong is one of the most powerful types of medical chi kung, and it’s grandmaster says that anyone who practices moving energy with visualization or intent must not do his practice, because it defeats the purpose of his powerful chi kung.

 

Likewise, in my chi kung, which is also very powerful and is for cultivating chi power as fast and efficiently as possible, doing such visualizing or intent practices is forbidden and I will not teach anyone who does those things because it turns any powerful chi kung into a waste of time.  Counterproductive.

 

There isn’t anything that would piss off Mr. Yueng, who was a most powerful nei kung master, as much as telling him you tried moving energy in your body with your mind.  Moving energy in your body with mind along with a breathing practice is worse.  Where I come from, doing such things is considered a very fundamentalist approach.

 

There are two ways that you can use intent to move energy that do not contradict the rules of good chi kung, but this thread isn’t about that.  It’s about how moving your arms and body works with energy.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Starjumper

[Earl Grey]

8 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

Every practice does something, so people say it works.  But something, or even anything, can make a person think they are on the path when in fact they are on a nice juicy detour.   So the question becomes, is that something useful in the long run, or will it lead to a dead end and bad habbits.  Notice word - dead.  Your statement of chi following intent is like saying chi will go to wherever you focus on, and it does, congatulations.  Passing out cigars all around.  This is the kind of thing that is done in the MCO and other similar practices, where a person visualizes (or if more adnvanced, uses intent) to make energy flow around their bodies.

 

Using intent with energy can be useful for some fighting applications, but still, I know from expereince that there is no need to focus on that, but rather focus on the intent of the physical movement isteslf.  If a person practices a proper chi kung that is more than enough, and will net them more chi power for the fighting application too.  Anyway, that fighting application doesn’t apply to energy cultivation via movement, so doesn’t belong in this thread.

 

Using intent to direct chi is counterproductive to the goals of Zhan Zhuang, one of the main ones being cultivating chi power.  Counterproductive.  It’s like playing a some video game while trying to do something else.

 

As you know Xian Gong is one of the most powerful types of medical chi kung, and it’s grandmaster says that anyone who practices visualizing moving energy must not do his practice, because it defeats the purpose of his powerful chi kung.

 

Likewise, in my chi kung, which is also very powerful and is for cultivating chi power as fast and effeiciently as possible, doing such visualizing practices is forbidden and I will not teach anyone who does those things because it turns any powerful chi kung into a waste of time.  Counterproductive.

 

There isn’t anything that would piss off Mr. Yueng, who was a most powerful nei kung master, as much as telling him you tried moving energy in your body with your mind.  Moving energy in your body with mind along with a breathing practice is worse.  Where I come from, doing such things is considered a very fundamentalist approach.

 

There are two ways that you can use intent to move energy that do not contradict the rules of good chi kung, but this thread isn’t about that.  It’s about how moving your arms and body works with energy.

Before I respond when at a computer, I’ll say that I’m distinguishing yi and intent from visualization as separate things.

[Bindi]

As to how these movements might have come about, and why, I was shown three movements to do when my energy needed to be brought up from my lower dantian to my middle dantian, by someone who actually psychically saw me do the movements first in their mind, to me it was like my own energy body was guiding me. This was after doing a personal version of ldt work for years, though not knowing anything about qigong or dantians at the time. 
 

I did just these three movements every day for a year (until I was shown to stop), in brief one was to bring blue heaven energy in, one was to bring red earth energy in, and one was to open the channels down my arms to allow qi to flow down, and come out as healing qi. I was shown to stop all three movements when my arm channels were open and the healing qi flow was constant, and I didn’t need further topping up or more opening. 
 

 

[Earl Grey]

42 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Every practice does something, so people say it works.  But something, or even anything, can make a person think they are on the path when in fact they are on a nice juicy detour.   So the question becomes, is that something useful in the long run, or will it lead to a dead end and bad habbits.  Notice word - dead.  Your statement of chi following intent is like saying chi will go to wherever you focus on, and it does, congatulations.  Passing out cigars all around.  This is the kind of thing that is done in the MCO and other similar practices, where a person visualizes (or if more adnvanced, uses intent) to make energy flow around their bodies.

 

The simplicity of the qi following yi is something that makes more sense when having experience in it rather than a lot of inference that comes from the statement being told to someone with zero experience--then it becomes a platitude. As I don't know the practices of the OP and he is uninterested in sharing them publicly, I can't make any assumptions about him and his history, so I just gave a "feeler" to see how he'd respond and it gave me a few insights already based on what some have said in regards to that simple statement. It's an annoying tactic, but I learned from some of the best (and far more annoying) teachers. 

 

46 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Using intent with energy can be useful for some fighting applications, but still, I know from expereince that there is no need to focus on that, but rather focus on the intent of the physical movement itself.  If a person practices a proper chi kung that is more than enough, and will net them more chi power for the fighting application too.  Anyway, fighting applications doesn’t apply to energy cultivation via movement, so doesn’t belong in this thread.

 

I'm only speaking from my area of expertise, and how qi flows for me has come from my health, cultivation, and martial, but primarily martial since it's the one I have the most experience and understanding in compared to the health or alchemical practices. The cultivation in Xin Yi leads to intrinsic movement, not willfully directed--if I am doing Eight Brocades, one of them has no movement that thinks of the spleen at all, yet it directs energy there even if you didn't know it was. 

 

Now as far as fighting applications "belonging" here... Again, I'm only speaking from how I learned to cultivate, and I have several systems of applying that, but it's the one I'm most comfortable referring to when talking mostly because it's the main practice I'm authorized to teach partially before mastery. So no, it doesn't not belong here...it just has a different framework than you're probably expecting or anticipating. 

 

50 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Using intent to direct chi is counterproductive to the goals of Zhan Zhuang, one of the main ones being cultivating chi power.  Counterproductive.  It’s like playing a video game while trying to do something else.

 

Again, referring to my own system of Xin Yi and how we stand and expanding on why we differentiate the term intent and the term visualization. When we stand, there is always intent: "zero" intent doesn't mean thinking of nothing, because whether I'm standing in embracing or piercing postures, the intent is the martial application at the very least and that is still not visualizing anything. The visualization comes in only later in the practice when we learn Hindrance, which is when we imagine things like holding and balancing multiple balls on and around the body, or maintaining structure and power when resisting imaginary forces such as wind, water, or a mob pushing you from any of the eight directions. 

 

At no point do we direct the qi anywhere--this is never taught and highly discouraged in Xin Yi and goes against the emptiness that is the crucial state of cultivation, movement of energy, and martial skill.

 

55 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

As you know Xian Gong is one of the most powerful types of medical chi kung, and it’s grandmaster says that anyone who practices moving energy with visualization or intent must not do his practice, because it defeats the purpose of his powerful chi kung.

 

Of course we don't visualize in Xiang Gong. But we still have at the very least intention to follow the proper order of the forms because doing the sets out of order causes qi deviation. Again, no visualization, just intent, which at this point I'll probably say that intent is closer to being used in the context of willpower or will rather than visualization.

 

56 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Likewise, in my chi kung, which is also very powerful and is for cultivating chi power as fast and efficiently as possible, doing such visualizing or intent practices is forbidden and I will not teach anyone who does those things because it turns any powerful chi kung into a waste of time.  Counterproductive.

 

Can't comment on this, but it still sounds a lot like what we do in Xin Yi.

 

57 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

There isn’t anything that would piss off Mr. Yueng, who was a most powerful nei kung master, as much as telling him you tried moving energy in your body with your mind.  Moving energy in your body with mind along with a breathing practice is worse.  Where I come from, doing such things is considered a very fundamentalist approach.

 

Most of the people I meet who talk about visualizing qi come from New Age yoga studios or self-taught energy healers and YouTube addicts who learned their knowledge from piecing together random videos online. There are only about several practices I do that involve visualization, and that is the Hindrance practice of Xin Yi, Relaxation qigong, and Sleeping qigong. 

 

59 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

There are two ways that you can use intent to move energy that do not contradict the rules of good chi kung, but this thread isn’t about that.  It’s about how moving your arms and body works with energy.

 

I'm still failing to see how what you understand what I've written to be out of focus with the thread, but hopefully I have clarified enough to show that this is relevant. 

[KuroShiro]

2 hours ago, alchemystical said:

The discovery of these movements and energy itself its absolutely fascinating, thats why I wish there were a real detailed history, theory and practical book about qigong instead of information scattered everywhere because its all so interesting. Granted they had no TVs so they entertained themselves with their selves but it really gets me thinking because you can take someone who knows no gong, get them to hold a few poses and boom, they feel the chi but if you randomly just position your arms, nothing. Its the significance, order, underlying rhythm that intrigues. Same when it comes to forms that have different types of breath control, how the heck did they discover that? That alone is mind boggling because the permutations of doing it randomly are immense and the measurements quite precise so how?

 

I believe there are at least two explanations: Revelations and practices created by Enlightened Masters.

[dwai]

How does qigong work?

 

The mind and Qi are interrelated. I would say they are two aspects of consciousness. Mind is the aspect of knowing, Qi is the aspect of creation. 
 

The third aspect associated with this is the breath. The mind (and Qi) wax and wane with the breath. We can even say that all three - mind, Qi and breath affect each other.

 

At a high level, qigong is the integration of mind and breath (can be with or without movement). When Breath is effortless and relaxed, The mind becomes “tame” and loses its natural turbulence. This leads to becoming sensitive of Qi.

 

With regular practice, little by little, we become more aware of Qi. As we become more aware of Qi, our ability to focus it, along with the mind grows. As the ability to focus increases, we improve the quality of this Qi. Like sunlight can be focused by passing it through a lens, as an example. This makes our Qi stronger. It also makes our mind intent more still and powerful. This is the part about why qigong works. 
 

More later if interested. 

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by dwai

[alchemystical]

8 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

As I don't know the practices of the OP and he is uninterested in sharing them publicly, I can't make any assumptions about him and his history, so I just gave a "feeler" to see how he'd respond and it gave me a few insights already based on what some have said in regards to that simple statement. It's an annoying tactic, but I learned from some of the best (and far more annoying) teachers.

 

Does your physical prowess match the level of mental gymnastic abilities deftly displayed in your reply? Boy you make me laugh and yes, you definitely are pissy and sound like you could do with a hug.

 

You and I both know your entire spiel in this thread is a post factum rationalization after viewing a load of people seeing your "Intent—qi follows yi" dictum for the BS it is. I'm not here to spar with you, no doubt you know a thing or two about a thing or two but you're acting mighty vaginal about me wishing to keep my lineage quiet so why not just assume I know nothing and take it from there? If you don't want to reply to my threads, don't. Ignore list me and miss out on all the interesting conversation I'll bring to this site but please, stop acting like a [word removed by system] because then you'll make me treat you like one and I don't really want to do that.

[alchemystical]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

As to how these movements might have come about, and why, I was shown three movements to do when my energy needed to be brought up from my lower dantian to my middle dantian, by someone who actually psychically saw me do the movements first in their mind, to me it was like my own energy body was guiding me. This was after doing a personal version of ldt work for years, though not knowing anything about qigong or dantians at the time. 
 

 

That is very interesting. I do believe the energy body aspects are whats at play in a lot of practices at the high level, almost like a refinement of the regular mode of awareness which is very coarse in standard embodied life. This is the true nature of alchemy.

 

6 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

 

I believe there are at least two explanations: Revelations and practices created by Enlightened Masters.

 

Yes, thats all it can be really. Either a long slog to the top of the mountain or an instant flash of insight that reveals all but takes almost as long as climbing the mountain to integrate. The olden days were very different, can you imagine life in a world with far less pollution, distraction and noise? Its like everything conspired to facilitate enlightenment then.

 

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

How does qigong work?

 

The mins and Qi are interrelated. I would say they are two aspects of consciousness. Mind is the aspect of knowing, Qi is the aspect of creation. 
 

The third aspect associated with this is the breath. The mind (and Qi) wax and wane with the breath. We can even say that all three - mind, Qi and breath affect each other.

 

At a high level, qigong is the integration of mind and breath (can be with or without movement). When Breath is effortless and relaxed, The mind becomes “tame” and loses its natural turbulence. This leads to becoming sensitive of Qi.

 

With regular practice, little by little, we become more aware of Qi. As we become more aware of Qi, our ability to focus it, along with the mind grows. As the ability to focus increases, we improve the quality of this Qi. Like sunlight can be focused by passing it through a lens, as an example. This makes our Qi stronger. It also makes our mind intent more still and powerful. This is the part about why qigong works. 
 

More later if interested. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, once again its the refinement I spoke of, like a reduction in granularity that self organizes as one rises. A lot of the separations we think we perceive are illusory which is why when things like breath, mind and qi are just aligned, present and in the moment things happen. Its all very much like a muscle or artistic ability, the more you train it and use it the less you are aware of it as it just becomes part of your expanded repertoire, effortless effort.