How/why does qigong work?

[alchemystical]

10 hours ago, rideforever said:

One strange thing about human culture is that it is unintelligent people who are left to do spirituality and energy work, because intelligent people simply get jobs and have families.  That is one reason why spiritual techniques are so unclear.

 

Lot of truth in that.

 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by alchemystical

[rideforever]

I remember that Mogallana who was Buddh'as 2nd best student (after Sariputta), had taken the journey of developing many esoteric powers but after his enlightenment had no use for them, but occasionally Buddha asked him to use them for some purpose to help the school, discovering imposters in the students and external threats.  Mogallana died a brutal death ... and perhaps the path that includes developing esoteric powers is for certain types of souls that like things rough.

[Starjumper]

2 hours ago, rideforever said:

I don't understand what people see in these "secrets".

 

Well, If you knew this one particular fundamental secret about how chi kung and zhan zhuang really work it would transform your whole way of thinking about it, knowing about it, and doing it.  You would also know in what way movements and postures are affecting another person's energy when you watch them.  You would know what techniques are useful for which purpose and goal, and which ones are more or less useless for much of anything.

 

I saw a post of yours a long time ago, saying you had read a book which mentioned one of the more important basic secrets of cultivation, or at least hinted at it.  I know because you briefly described what it said.  Then you said it was wrong - YAHAhahaha.

 

Earlier I mentioned how some of these important basic principles are hidden in plain view, but this shows us another side of that coin, where people reject important information which is given to them because it doesn't match their fairlyland fantasies.

 

Therefore this information is a secret kept from you, Rideforever.  You are keeping it a secret from yourself.  This is yet another motivation for not sharing important training tips that appear to be unknown.  I imagine that some here would know about what I am referring to If I mentioned it, but I have never seen it mentioned on this forum in the ten  years I've been here.

 

In fact the question on this thread, about how moving your arms around works, is related to the knowledge that, in your great wisdom, you rejected.

 

Earlier on I was thinking that such things should not be given away to the undeserving, but then when I saw your mention of having seen it in a book, it changed my views a little.  The reason is I've been thinking of writing a book about some of these important but lesser known methods of cultivation, but the big question is how much to share and how well to explain it.  For example, in the past I've dropped some hints about just the thing that this thread is supposed to be about, but there seems to be no interest in them or insightful questions about it.  

 

I'm sure if I explained it in detail a lot of people would experience a big Aha! moment of realization ... and no doubt many others here would piss on it.  So the question I'm working on is if I should write a book about some of the more important principles, and if so, how much I should reveal.  I know some knowledgeable people, like Jerry Johnson, have supposedly written about some deep, previously unknown, stuff, but I think I saw others say that it doesn't include some key information, or basics, if you wish.  I know the Chinese in general have 'lost' it, and those Chinese who know will never tell the public, so it seems to be up to a few of us lucky gringos to tell it like it is, but since I'm a traditionalist I don't know if that is the right thing to do.

 

What do you all think?     ...    Wait, I know what some of you think, you think there are no secrets and you know it all or else you want someone to give it to you for free while you sit in your living room eating pop corn.

 

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Starjumper

[liminal_luke]

31 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

What do you all think? 

 

Good reasons not to disclose "secrets" fall into two categories: (1) revealing the secret would hurt the person disclosing the information, and (2) revealing the secret would hurt the person the information is disclosed to.

 

Corporations often have trade secrets that they keep for the purpose of making money.  Money making isn´t the most altruistic of goals, but spiritual masters need to eat too -- well, at least some of them need to anyway.  If you have knowledge that people will pay for (and your goal is to make money) it might not be good business to give that knowledge away.

 

Some people keep secrets because the information would be harmful if revealed.  Not everyone needs to know how to make a nuclear bomb.  If people would be likely to misuse secret information in a way that harms themselves or others, it´s reasonable to be careful about disclosure.

 

In my view, the idea that someone is not "deserving" of information is not a good reason for keeping a secret, if that information would be likely to improve that person´s life.  Spiritual masters ought not to sit in judgment of others deciding who is worthy of which spiritual goodies.  (Unless giving information to someone prematurely would be harmful to that person.)  

 

Many secrets are self-protecting: they can be shared freely because the people who aren´t ready to hear them will ignore the information or believe it´s false.

 

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by liminal_luke

[Starjumper]

33 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

What do you all think?

 

Earl Grey likes it because in an Akashic reading he told me he saw several books from me.

[Earl Grey]

3 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

Earl Grey likes it because in an Akashic reading he told me he saw several books from me.

Yes, and when you have them in softcover too I will keep copies of them. 
 

Otherwise, anyone can use lulu.com to custom print. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Earl Grey

[Starjumper]

2 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Yes, and when you have them in softcover too I will keep copies of them. 
 

Otherwise, anyone can use lulu.com to custom print. 

 

I started using Amazon for printing, but might look for a publisher for publish another one, or publish it as a greatly expanded second edition of the one I already have.

[rideforever]

35 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 So the question I'm working on is if I should write a book about some of the more important principles, and if so, how much I should reveal.

 

While you are debating whether you should write your book... there are many advanced teachers in the world sitting with students and enlightening their students.  You are not the only person who knows something.

My teacher for instance in private meetings he transmits the state of consciousness directly to students, and he is not the only one.  It's "advanced" I suppose but he is also just doing his job.  It's not a big deal.

In India there are many teachers doing high level cultivation work in private retreats, a lot is expected of you but it is there if you want it.

In the Zen tradition I know many people get enlightened.

These stupid secret bullshits that I suppose are designed to keep some lineage alive, by promising something in the future ... this is dumb and insincere, it's turning the path into a circus. 

Unfortunately this kind of crap has I suppose been required to keep the students money coming in.

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, rideforever said:

One strange thing about human culture is that it is unintelligent people who are left to do spirituality and energy work, because intelligent people simply get jobs and have families.

 

This is one of the stupidest things I've ever read on the forum.  Most of my teachers were geniuses.  Maybe I was just lucky, or maybe the term master implies genius.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Starjumper

[Earl Grey]

Just now, Starjumper said:

 

This is one of the stupidest things I've read on the forum.  Most of my teachers were geniuses.  Maybe I was just lucky, or maybe the term master implies genius.

Remember: rudeforever is a firm believer that doing any qigong must demonstrate that it works in the LDT in order to become enlightened. You should see his certainty the other day where he posted how Taiji and Liuhebafa work...

 

 Forever rude, forever rube.

[Starjumper]

4 minutes ago, rideforever said:

These stupid secret bullshits that I suppose are designed to keep some lineage alive, by promising something in the future ... this is dumb and insincere, it's turning the path into a circus. 

Unfortunately this kind of crap has I suppose been required to keep the students money coming in.

 

Wow, you are WAY more clueless than I had earlier imagined.  Astounding really.  You can't read either.  Can't read, can't think, can't see, can't drive, etc

[rideforever]

There are no secrets that are dangerous.  Because self-realisation is not a trick, nor is it dangerous, nor it is the result of some energy magic.  The stuff that is dangerous is when you perform certain energy effects that can damage you or another person ... yeah that is dangerous.  But it's not spiritual.

On this form people talk of cultivation but they don't seem to realise the difference between the path ... and cultivating energy tricks that will not save you from death.

 

Like Ramana Maharshi said, I can give it to you, but can you take it.  It's not a trick, no-one is concealing anything.  But you need to cultivate yourself in a sincere way, to develop your spiritual sensitivity and intelligence.

 

All these dumb tricks are completely the wrong direction.  I suppose these guys were promised the magic whatnot was going to be given to them ... after 30 years of training, just stick with me.  And now they say the same bs to their own students.

What a nightmare, avoid all these people.

[rideforever]

11 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Most of my teachers were geniuses

 

Like you ?

 

The history of human enlightened beings says something completely different.  Many of them were very poor uneducated and uncultivated.  After they reached realisation they shared it with any student that came to them.

 

Finding a good tradition and teacher can be a challenge especially at the beginning, but I would avoid "secrets" "powers", people who want your money or your blood ... and try more direct and grounded people.

 

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by rideforever

[silent thunder]

i see the qi is working...

[Starjumper]

18 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Many of them were very poor uneducated and uncultivated.  After they reached realisation they shared it with any student that came to them.

 

That pretty much describes me, you fucking idiot.

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

 

I started using Amazon for printing, but might look for a publisher for publish another one, or publish it as a greatly expanded second edition of the one I already have.

Bookbaby.com is another option.

[Starjumper]

15 minutes ago, dwai said:

Bookbaby.com is another option.

 

How about the Lulu and Bookbaby marketing?  It seems like Amazon has all the marketing.

[liminal_luke]

Those looking for in-depth theoretical understanding are unlikely to feel satisfied with 12-step slogans but I´ll share one anyway: It works if you work it.

[Starjumper]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Good reasons not to disclose "secrets" fall into two categories: (1) revealing the secret would hurt the person disclosing the information, and (2) revealing the secret would hurt the person the information is disclosed to.

 

Some people keep secrets because the information would be harmful if revealed.  Not everyone needs to know how to make a nuclear bomb.  If people would be likely to misuse secret information in a way that harms themselves or others, it´s reasonable to be careful about disclosure.

 

In my view, the idea that someone is not "deserving" of information is not a good reason for keeping a secret, if that information would be likely to improve that person´s life.  Spiritual masters ought not to sit in judgment of others deciding who is worthy of which spiritual goodies.  (Unless giving information to someone prematurely would be harmful to that person.)  

 

Many secrets are self-protecting: they can be shared freely because the people who aren´t ready to hear them will ignore the information or believe it´s false.

 

What can be dangerous is powerful methods.  Anything powerful will always be potentially dangerous.

 

Concerning 'deserving', in my view, that depends on past life work, pureness of heart, and how much effort a person is willing to make.

 

Buying books and videos is insufficient effort.  If I do write a book about some of the basics and how to use them that will be more than enough, I'll leave out the more powerful and 'spiritual' applications of the methods.

[dwai]

33 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

How about the Lulu and Bookbaby marketing?  It seems like Amazon has all the marketing.

I’ve not looked at others. I’m considering ingramspark but it costs ~ 500$ for initial work — they have option of hard bound as well as paperback. Advantage is they can distribute in bookstores etc. which btw amazon can too. I’ll share some other strategies with you that I’m looking at in a pm. 

[doc benway]

12 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Good reasons not to disclose "secrets" fall into two categories: (1) revealing the secret would hurt the person disclosing the information, and (2) revealing the secret would hurt the person the information is disclosed to.

 

Corporations often have trade secrets that they keep for the purpose of making money.  Money making isn´t the most altruistic of goals, but spiritual masters need to eat too -- well, at least some of them need to anyway.  If you have knowledge that people will pay for (and your goal is to make money) it might not be good business to give that knowledge away.

 

Some people keep secrets because the information would be harmful if revealed.  Not everyone needs to know how to make a nuclear bomb.  If people would be likely to misuse secret information in a way that harms themselves or others, it´s reasonable to be careful about disclosure.

 

In my view, the idea that someone is not "deserving" of information is not a good reason for keeping a secret, if that information would be likely to improve that person´s life.  Spiritual masters ought not to sit in judgment of others deciding who is worthy of which spiritual goodies.  (Unless giving information to someone prematurely would be harmful to that person.)  

 

Many secrets are self-protecting: they can be shared freely because the people who aren´t ready to hear them will ignore the information or believe it´s false.

 

 

 

Among the masters I've trained with (not using that term lightly), I've found a martial arts foundation leads to secrecy.

Focusing on spiritual growth leads to more openness and drive to help as many people as possible. 

That said, the most powerful secrets of the Bön were once passed from master to only a single pupil per lifetime.

In order to avoid extinction, they are now open source!

No one is getting hurt, they are self-secret as Luke suggests, and the protectors can be trusted.

I think it's harder for the martial mind to let go due to its nature.

I've tasted that. 

And yet they are going extinct.

We hear lamentations about so few masters and skillful adepts.

This is why!

A good friend and master of martial, qigong, and neigong arts showed me the wisdom of sharing even the most martial and powerful of secrets in a spirit of camaraderie rather than competition or dominance.

Not only to save the teachings but to save ourselves and each other.

I think that's something the macrocosm would benefit from embracing...

 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by steve

[freeform]

On 23/02/2020 at 11:34 AM, alchemystical said:

You can wave your arms around randomly and feel nothing yet if you wave them in a certain way you feel a very definite something.

 

That's a delusion.

 

The specific pattern of arm-waving has little to do with the effectiveness of Qi gong... You can 'wave your arms' in the pattern of the most advanced qigong technique and get zero out of it. And yet you can easily delude yourself - because hey, this impressive master with hundreds of students all bowing to him told you it's the highest form of qigong, so like a good hypno subject you create feelings and experiences inside yourself.

 

The effect of Qi gong is from the application of the fundamental principles underpinning the movements. It's not the movements themselves. The movements just aid in putting those principles into form.

 

The principles are often kept secret - yes. But these days they're pretty out in the open - it's just very few people train diligently enough to get them to work. They tend to just run from one shiny object to another without putting in time and effort.

 

Fundamental principles are often mentioned in classical texts. But deciphering them, and understanding how to put them into practice involves working with a teacher that trusts you enough to pass on the real method.

 

On 23/02/2020 at 12:31 PM, alchemystical said:

From my perspective this qi follows yi approach creates a wide opening for egoic concepts of cultivation

 

Yes exactly. Because 'Qi follows Yi' is a super simplified classical statement - which means it needs unpacking... You can unpack it in all sorts of ways... but a genuine teacher will unpack it in a specific way that actually works.

 

On 23/02/2020 at 12:31 PM, alchemystical said:

plus there are a lot of forms that specifically stipulate empty presence is the desired state of practice

 

And stillness and wu wei are at the core of the meaning of "Qi follows Yi"...

 

Yi is not just intention in the way we tend to think of - like a focused direction of the mind. Yi is the quality of your mind.

 

So for example, when you want to sink your Qi (which is a difficult thing to do - and takes months of diligent practice)... if you think that Yi is 'focused intent' - you'll just focus your mind on your feet or on your Dantien...

 

But Yi isn't focused intent - Yi is the "quality of mind"... So you just created a focused and willful quality of mind - and guess what that means that Qi rises to your head immediately.

 

The correct Yi is based on the principle of Song - or 'release'. Sinking only happens when you're able to mentally and physically release and let go into form (this is both physical form and 'energetic form').

 

So if you have some energetic form in your DT, you can just Song your mind, which naturally sinks just like muddy water settling until clear... and so it sinks to your DT - and if you're still, undistracted and remain sunk, then the Qi will follow.

 

But usually people don't have an energetic form in the DT for the mind to anchor, so it will not sink. More preliminary work to be done

 

Qi follows Yi is just one of many such principles - and all of them need to be understood, developed and put to work in your training - this in itself is years of diligent work - not one class.

 

Feeling Qi (or at least the effect of Qi) is not subtle! It's not subtle waves or warmth... That's all just your nervous system reacting to your attention being led inside your body.

 

I've seen a guy pass out from the pain and intensity of Qi moving (too) strongly through his Du. When Qi truly mobilises it's very uncomfortable - hot, shaky, sweaty... there's strong emotional resistance (or attachment)... Usually, people will have wild spontaneous movements when the Qi touches the nerves and starts to work through the body at this level.

 

Once your channels are open (and they're opened using Qigong movements with fundamental principles in place) then things change... it's only then that you can actually say that you're 'doing qigong'... before that, it's all preparation.

 

I've met many people that think they've been doing qigong for years - but in reality, they've just been waving their arms in time to their breathing - which is lovely and relaxing - but it's not qi gong.

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

That's a delusion.

 

The specific pattern of arm-waving has little to do with the effectiveness of Qi gong... You can 'wave your arms' in the pattern of the most advanced qigong technique and get zero out of it. And yet you can easily delude yourself - because hey, this impressive master with hundreds of students all bowing to him told you it's the highest form of qigong, so like a good hypno subject you create feelings and experiences inside yourself.

 

The effect of Qi gong is from the application of the fundamental principles underpinning the movements. It's not the movements themselves. The movements just aid in putting those principles into form.

 

The principles are often kept secret - yes. But these days they're pretty out in the open - it's just very few people train diligently enough to get them to work. They tend to just run from one shiny object to another without putting in time and effort.

 

Fundamental principles are often mentioned in classical texts. But deciphering them, and understanding how to put them into practice involves working with a teacher that trusts you enough to pass on the real method.

 

 

Yes exactly. Because 'Qi follows Yi' is a super simplified classical statement - which means it needs unpacking... You can unpack it in all sorts of ways... but a genuine teacher will unpack it in a specific way that actually works.

 

 

And stillness and wu wei are at the core of the meaning of "Qi follows Yi"...

 

Yi is not just intention in the way we tend to think of - like a focused direction of the mind. Yi is the quality of your mind.

 

So for example, when you want to sink your Qi (which is a difficult thing to do - and takes months of diligent practice)... if you think that Yi is 'focused intent' - you'll just focus your mind on your feet or on your Dantien...

 

But Yi isn't focused intent - Yi is the "quality of mind"... So you just created a focused and willful quality of mind - and guess what that means that Qi rises to your head immediately.

 

The correct Yi is based on the principle of Song - or 'release'. Sinking only happens when you're able to mentally and physically release and let go into form (this is both physical form and 'energetic form').

 

So if you have some energetic form in your DT, you can just Song your mind, which naturally sinks just like muddy water settling until clear... and so it sinks to your DT - and if you're still, undistracted and remain sunk, then the Qi will follow.

 

But usually people don't have an energetic form in the DT for the mind to anchor, so it will not sink. More preliminary work to be done

 

Qi follows Yi is just one of many such principles - and all of them need to be understood, developed and put to work in your training - this in itself is years of diligent work - not one class.

 

Feeling Qi (or at least the effect of Qi) is not subtle! It's not subtle waves or warmth... That's all just your nervous system reacting to your attention being led inside your body.

 

I've seen a guy pass out from the pain and intensity of Qi moving (too) strongly through his Du. When Qi truly mobilises it's very uncomfortable - hot, shaky, sweaty... there's strong emotional resistance (or attachment)... Usually, people will have wild spontaneous movements when the Qi touches the nerves and starts to work through the body at this level.

 

Once your channels are open (and they're opened using Qigong movements with fundamental principles in place) then things change... it's only then that you can actually say that you're 'doing qigong'... before that, it's all preparation.

 

I've met many people that think they've been doing qigong for years - but in reality, they've just been waving their arms in time to their breathing - which is lovely and relaxing - but it's not qi gong.

Freeform, write your damn book already and save me ten autographed copies. Please. Thanks.  

[freeform]

16 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Freeform, write your damn book already and save me ten autographed copies. Please. Thanks.

 

I know just enough to realise how much I don't know yet!

[Sebastian]

10 minutes ago, freeform said:

I know just enough to realise how much I don't know yet!

You can write this on my copy next to your signature. 
 

And if you do reach enlightenment one day the re-sell value would increase dramatically - so please don’t give up and keep practicing.
 

I guess Earl Grey is way ahead of me with his 10 copies order though, clever move to call it like that.

 

In gambling speak, Freeform is our horse, I got my money on him ! Don’t let me down man !! Don’t let these signatures go down in value !