How/why does qigong work?

[Earl Grey]

Just now, Sebastian said:

You can write this on my copy next to your signature. 
 

And if you do reach enlightenment one day the re-sell value would increase dramatically - so please don’t give up and keep practicing.
 

I guess Earl Grey is way ahead of me with his 10 copies order though, clever move to call it like that.

 

In gambling speak, Freeform is our horse, I got my money on him ! Don’t let me down man !! Don’t let these signatures go down in value !

The signature isn’t for resell value—it’s to have a part of him on a very personal level beyond that part of him in the book!

[Sebastian]

Just now, Earl Grey said:

The signature isn’t for resell value—it’s to have a part of him on a very personal level beyond that part of him in the book!

Wow, that was very sweet  

 

Yeah me too.... it’s for his personal touch - like a teddy bear I could place my head in between the pages.... and not for the multiple grands I would be making and driving around in sports cars.. with everyone waving at me, in Vegas... oh man, that would be nice... right, I’m with you on that one. 

[freeform]

5 minutes ago, Sebastian said:

In gambling speak, Freeform is our horse, I got my money on him ! Don’t let me down man !!

 

I'm afraid I'd be a sad disappointment as a racehorse!

 

[Sebastian]

Well the paddle at the beginning was encouraging.... but you need better rooting.

[freeform]

Either for profit or for a personal connection - I promise that if I ever do write a book - you guys will be the first to get a signed copy!

[Earl Grey]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I'm afraid I'd be a sad disappointment as a racehorse!

 

Hey, as they say, “friendship is forever”! 
 

...if anyone gets it, then I’ll laugh jovially.

[freeform]

5 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

...if anyone gets it, then I’ll laugh jovially.

 

Probably not....

 

But - a shallow dive into the scientific literature on the subject brought up this gem:

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by freeform

[Earl Grey]

I meant “friendship is magic” haha. But close enough.

[Starjumper]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

Qi follows Yi is just one of many such principles - and all of them need to be understood, developed and put to work in your training - this in itself is years of diligent work - not one class.

 

Good explanations in your post.  When I posted about using the practice of chi following intent being wrong, I meant it in the manner taught by Moretalk and others.  In fact in the way I learned, intent is an essential part of making chi kung work.  What is your feeling about sharing some of these basic 'secrets' in a book in plain English?

[Starjumper]

22 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

In my view, the idea that someone is not "deserving" of information is not a good reason for keeping a secret, if that information would be likely to improve that person´s life.  Spiritual masters ought not to sit in judgment of others deciding who is worthy of which spiritual goodies.  (Unless giving information to someone prematurely would be harmful to that person.)  

 

Many secrets are self-protecting: they can be shared freely because the people who aren´t ready to hear them will ignore the information or believe it´s false.

 

I agree, but the details ... You can't give anyone all the 'secrets' you know all at once, it would be a wasted effort.  It needs to go in steps so a person can work their way up to a place where they can appreciate the next step, or secret, if you will.

 

For this very reason, it is not necessary to judge a person as to whether or not they are deserving.  That's because most people drop out of a serious system.  If someone sticks with it and works with what you give them, then they will get to the stage where they can be shown more.  I know plenty of teachers hold out to most people, but I'm talking about my kung fu family, where the teachers shared as much as possible with us students.    One of my assassin type self defense teachers put it this way.  "In the beginning I show you this much (and he holds his hands a foot apart) and you can see this much (he holds his hands three inches apart).  Then later, after you understand that, I show you this much (he holds his hands two feet apart), and you see this much (he holds his hands one foot apart)". ... and so on and so forth.

 

10 hours ago, steve said:

A good friend and master of martial, qigong, and neigong arts showed me the wisdom of sharing even the most martial and powerful of secrets in a spirit of camaraderie rather than competition or dominance.

Not only to save the teachings but to save ourselves and each other.

I think that's something the macrocosm would benefit from embracing.

 

So given what I just wrote above, what is the usefullness of sharing everything all at once?  I can see how with spiritual meditation type methods that could fly, but what about power cultivating methods?  If egotistical people learn to be powerful they could hurt others.  If violent people are taught to kill or maim with great ease, they are likely to hurt some good person.  Of course the last one can only be shared in person because it requires physical sensitivity training,  But the other two could possibly be described in a book.

 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Starjumper

[Earl Grey]

3 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

I agree, but the details ... You can't give anyone all the 'secrets' you know all at once, it would be a wasted effort.  It needs to go in steps so a person can work their way up to a place where they can appreciate the next step, or secret, if you will.

 

For this very reason, it is not necessary to judge a person as to whether or not they are deserving.  That's because most people drop out of a serious system.  If someone sticks with it and works with what you give them, then they will get to the stage where they can be shown more.  I know plenty of teachers hold out to most people, but I'm talking about my kung fu family, where the teachers shared as much as possible with us students.    One of my assassin type self defense teachers put it this way.  "In the beginning I show you this much (and he holds his hands a foot apart) and you can see this much (he holds his hands three inches apart).  Then later, after you understand that, I show you this much (he holds his hands two feet apart), and you see this much (he holds his hands one foot apart)". ... and so on and so forth.

 

 

So given what I just wrote above, what is the usefullness of sharing everything all at once?  I can see how with spiritual meditation type methods that could fly, but what about power cultivating methods?  If egotistical people learn to be powerful they could hurt others.  If violent people are taught to kill or maim with great ease, they are likely to hurt others.  Of course the last one can only be shared in person because it requires physical sensitivity training,  But the other two could possibly be described in a book.

 

 

 

The in-person character observations are really important for giving these techniques, honestly. My teacher knew I had a lot of anger and outright rage, and I made no effort to hide how i wanted to use what I learned if anyone messed with me. What he revealed was that my anger was real, but my character had a lot more restraint than I realized because he saw that in our tuishou how I was with others. He said, “Son, you really just want to be loved and don’t want to hurt others or be hurt. I guarantee if I teach you these skills that you’ll never use them because you care.”

 

I learned them. I also realized that they were a lot more than just harming others with them because of other esoteric applications.

[freeform]

Just now, Starjumper said:

What is your feeling about sharing some of these basic 'secrets' in a book in plain English?

 

My concern is that one needs a systematic process to follow...

 

And although I understand the mechanics behind some of the principles, I'm not able to take someone through the process without personal guidance.

 

Teaching may be on the cards down the line, but a book much further down the line. There is a complex line of responsibility to being a teacher - even when it's in the form of a book... So I need to understand things at a much more 'causal' level before embarking on anything like that.

[freeform]

12 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

You can't give anyone all the 'secrets' you know all at once, it would be a wasted effort.  It needs to go in steps so a person can work their way up to a place where they can appreciate the next step, or secret, if you will.

 

Yes - there's 'secrets' and there's 'withholding information'.

 

Both exist.

 

But a lot of what seems like secrets is just withholding information... just as a physics teacher would withhold information about Quantum Mechanics when teaching a class of high schoolers.

[Starjumper]

12 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

The in-person character observations are really important for giving these techniques, honestly. My teacher knew I had a lot of anger and outright rage, and I made no effort to hide how i wanted to use what I learned if anyone messed with me. What he revealed was that my anger was real, but my character had a lot more restraint than I realized because he saw that in our tuishou how I was with others. He said, “Son, you really just want to be loved and don’t want to hurt others or be hurt. I guarantee if I teach you these skills that you’ll never use them because you care.”

 

I learned them. I also realized that they were a lot more than just harming others with them because of other esoteric applications.

 

I made a mistake in the post you quoted, because for deadly type self defense methods you most certainly want to carefully judge who  you will allow to be a student.  I made the mistake of lumping the self defense comment into the paragraph where I was talking about chi cultivation in general.

[Earl Grey]

26 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

I made a mistake in the post you quoted, because for deadly type self defense methods you most certainly want to carefully judge who  you will allow to be a student.  I made the mistake of lumping the self defense comment into the paragraph where I was talking about chi cultivation in general.

 

Yes, they're usually different, but it's not unheard of to see a martial technique also have cultivation purposes and vice-versa. 

[bax44]

The last two pages of this thread...

 

 

can I get an autograph too???

Edited February 25, 2020 by bax44

[Rara]

On 23/02/2020 at 8:38 PM, alchemystical said:

And LOL at the spiritual forum, I've addressed that before and you should be well aware of my thoughts about this place and some of the people that inhabit it.

 

Does David Icke still have a forum? You could spend time there instead of wasting time with us.

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

Yes, they're usually different, but it's not unheard of to see a martial technique also have cultivation purposes and vice-versa. 

 

It's quite common actually.  Tai chi is an example.  In my chi kung quite a lot of the movements are self defense movements but slowed down to a snail's pace, and with a hundred variations.  Like did you know you can do 'Teacups' a hundred different ways?

 

Actually, just about any kind of movement can be used for self defense in the appropriate situation.  That's why we learn the ten thousand ways.  Ten thousand ways to hurt someone, and ten thousand ways to work with energy.  That's a big part of nei kung.

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

I agree, but the details ... You can't give anyone all the 'secrets' you know all at once, it would be a wasted effort.  It needs to go in steps so a person can work their way up to a place where they can appreciate the next step, or secret, if you will.

 

For this very reason, it is not necessary to judge a person as to whether or not they are deserving.  That's because most people drop out of a serious system.  If someone sticks with it and works with what you give them, then they will get to the stage where they can be shown more.  I know plenty of teachers hold out to most people, but I'm talking about my kung fu family, where the teachers shared as much as possible with us students.    One of my assassin type self defense teachers put it this way.  "In the beginning I show you this much (and he holds his hands a foot apart) and you can see this much (he holds his hands three inches apart).  Then later, after you understand that, I show you this much (he holds his hands two feet apart), and you see this much (he holds his hands one foot apart)". ... and so on and so forth.

 

 

Quote

So given what I just wrote above, what is the usefullness of sharing everything all at once?  I can see how with spiritual meditation type methods that could fly, but what about power cultivating methods?  If egotistical people learn to be powerful they could hurt others.  If violent people are taught to kill or maim with great ease, they are likely to hurt some good person.  Of course the last one can only be shared in person because it requires physical sensitivity training,  But the other two could possibly be described in a book.

 

I essentially agree with everything you wrote. I would not advocate sharing all at once. Very little sense in that. I didn’t say, or mean to imply, that there should be no criteria, no evaluation, and no judgment used. And that works both ways, student and teacher need to carefully assess each other. I think this evaluation process is important, the teacher student relationship is important, and I find it to be equally important in spiritual and martial contexts. You can really fuck someone up with unskillful spiritual practices.

 

The issue regarding secrecy and lethal martial technique doesn’t hold as much water with me. Not that it couldn’t create a problem but the vast majority of violent offenders are going to buy or steal a knife or a gun - far easier and more effective than spending months, years, or decades finding the right teacher, training, and mastering lethal hand/foot techniques. We don’t see very many violent crimes being committed without weapons by martial arts masters. The process works. I did not say to abandon good judgment.

 

There are teachers who like to keep certain things secret to maintain an edge or to allow a successor or very small, trusted group of students to maintain an edge. That’s a legacy martial, and spiritual, mindset that played an important role in the past but is largely obsolete, IMO. Some of that is also ego driven. 

 

My point is more that being more open with these teachings is good for everyone. The teacher benefits, the student benefits, and the art benefits. It’s still important to have standards. 

 

Two good examples come to mind - BJJ and dzogchen. BJJ was once a secret and allowed Royce Gracie to dominate UFC for years and allowed a handful of Brazilians to benefit. Once the secret was out, many more people benefited from access to this wonderful art and the overall level of competition and excellence grew worldwide as a result. Similar with dzogchen meditation. Once handed down to one qualified pupil per master in his lifetime, period. Now becoming very widespread and helping many people around the planet, not to mention preventing extermination of this precious knowledge with the Chinese occupation of Tibet.

 

I know little to nothing about the knowledge and methods you’ve been taught. It sounds credible and worthwhile. What happens as you and the handful of other folks who carry that knowledge age and die (or fly off to immortality 😉), will that knowledge be lost? Are there others to pass it on? No question, we need to be cautious about our sharing but there needs to be a balance between caution and generosity, IMO.

[dawei]

On 2/23/2020 at 7:35 AM, Starjumper said:

 

That doesn't really answer the question.  The devil's in the details, and this doesn't explain the basic principle behind moving chi kung or Zhan Zhuang.

 

On 2/23/2020 at 7:35 AM, Starjumper said:

It’s a secret.  Well not really.   Actually it is hidden in plain view, and it's astounding how everyone misses this basic principle, and how easy it is to hide things in plain view by telling people to look somewhere else.

 

 

Nothing is really a secret, Intent—qi follows yi.

 

spell out the basic principle. 

 

You later said, intent is important. 

 

 

[Earl Grey]

15 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

 

 

Nothing is really a secret, Intent—qi follows yi.

 

spell out the basic principle. 

 

You later said, intent is important. 

 

 

 

Careful, the OP dismissed the first response I gave--qi follows yi--as bullshit!  

 

Of course, as spelled out later, the devil is in the details, but those details come from experience and from guidance, not from interacting with idiots pretending to be interested in learning something or discussing it. 

[liminal_luke]

When considering intent, it might be helpful to clarify the part of the body that´s doing the intending.  Many people experience themselves as existing in their heads, so when they say they "intend" something what they mean is that their head intends it.  It´s possible to experience the self from the point of view of the lower dan tien or the feet or the liver.  It´s possible to experience the self from the point of view of the body as an integrated whole.  This issue of what part of us does the intending is crucial because it has everything to do with how the intention plays out.  

 

Or so I secretly think.

[dawei]

23 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Careful, the OP dismissed the first response I gave--qi follows yi--as bullshit!  

 

Of course, as spelled out later, the devil is in the details, but those details come from experience and from guidance, not from interacting with idiots pretending to be interested in learning something or discussing it. 

 

Medical Qigong practitioners understand the use of intent.  Ask JAJ, et al.   

 

I asked him a single question:

 

spell out the basic principle. 

 

he later said, intent is important. 

Edited February 26, 2020 by dawei

[dawei]

10 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

When considering intent, it might be helpful to clarify the part of the body that´s doing the intending.  Many people experience themselves as existing in their heads, so when they say they "intend" something what they mean is that their head intends it.  It´s possible to experience the self from the point of view of the lower dan tien or the feet or the liver.  It´s possible to experience the self from the point of view of the body as an integrated whole.  This issue of what part of us does the intending is crucial because it has everything to do with how the intention plays out.  

 

Or so I secretly think.

 

Do you do healing practice?  Healing others? 

[liminal_luke]

33 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

Do you do healing practice?  Healing others? 

 

I used to work as a massage therapist.  Not presently though I´m still very interested in bodywork, especially energetic modalities, and might get back into that someday.  I´ve also got some (mostly not very helpful) psychological training. 

 

These days I try to be a healing presence in the world in terms of my interactions but, alas, nobody pays me for this activity. May I ask what prompts the question?

Edited February 26, 2020 by liminal_luke