How/why does qigong work?

[dawei]

2 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I used to work as a massage therapist.  Not presently though I´m still very interested in bodywork, especially energetic modalities, and might get back into that someday.  Why do you ask?

 

I asked SJ about Yi follow Qi... and intent is important...

 

Did you comment on that issue?

 

Your past is your past.  I can feel that was a useful practice for others.   I can smile at that. 

[Earl Grey]

36 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

Medical Qigong practitioners understand the use of intent.  Ask JAJ, et al.   

 

I asked him a single question:

 

spell out the basic principle. 

 

he later said, intent is important. 

I meant the OP, not SJ, as I replied on the first page. I even said intent and visualization are different, and not necessarily focusing on LDT as someone else gave as an example.

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, dawei said:

Nothing is really a secret, Intent—qi follows yi.

 

spell out the basic principle. 

 

You later said, intent is important. 

 

In Tien Shan chi kung we use intent as it applies to moving our arms, it is an important feature which makes it powerful.  The thread is originally about how moving your arms works.  So in my view it is important to use intent as it applies to moving arms and hands, and in my system it is not allowed to move energy in our bodies with mind because it is detrimental to cultivating chi power, it doesn't matter whether you call it intent or visualizing.  According to my definitions visualizing is simply a beginner's lousy attempt at using intent.  I'm sorry, but I feel I shouldn't share how we use intent (or focus) with movement, although the same principle also applies to Zhan Zhuang, which makes ZZ more powerful.  I think using mind to move energy in ZZ will be detrimental to chi power cultivation.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Starjumper

[dawei]

13 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

In Tien Shan chi kung we use intent as it applies to moving our arms, it is an important feature which makes it powerful.  The thread is originally about how moving your arms works.  So in my view it is important to use intent as it applies to moving arms and hands, and in my system it is not allowed to move energy in our bodies with mind because it is detrimental to cultivating chi power, it doesn't matter whether you call it intent or visualizing.  According to my definitions visualizing is simply a beginner's lousy attempt at using intent.  I'm sorry, but I feel I shouldn't share how we use intent (or focus) with movement, although the same principle also applies to Zhan Zhuang, which makes ZZ more powerful.  I think using mind to move energy in ZZ will be detrimental to chi power cultivation.

 

Thanks for explaining that.

 

I come from much self-taught (or read) Qigong and then more formal Medical Qigong training where in both, intent and visualization were used, as was a part of the earliest Daoist practices that pre-date the more modern Ming / Xing.  For some reason I have never read or understood is: Why did the earliest methods stop working so that later methods were invented or adjusted to claim to be the path and way?     Why are folks incapable of doing the more original practices and need strict steps and methods now.

 

I am really talking out loud and not about your practice per se as I see it more as an anciently passed down one.  

 

My opinion on it, now far removed from the practice and having the time to 'look back' is that intent and visualization is powerful when done correctly.   It is not so much Yi leads Qi, which has some truth, but when Yi combines with Qi it is more like something new emerges if one then lets go of it; it becomes a self-directed force in a way but the role of the mind is a third wheel.   

 

I began to see the dangers in such methods.  Not to a beginner who doesn't quite understand how to manipulate it yet, but to someone who knows how to manipulate its power.   

[freeform]

17 hours ago, dawei said:

Qigong and then more formal Medical Qigong training where in both, intent and visualization were used, as was a part of the earliest Daoist practices that pre-date the more modern Ming / Xing.

 

How do you know visualisation was used?

 

17 hours ago, dawei said:

Why did the earliest methods stop working so that later methods were invented or adjusted to claim to be the path and way?

 

The earlier methods coming from the Wu people are based around shamanic practices that look to work on the 'earthly plane'... the later practices look to work on 'the heavenly plane'.

[dawei]

12 hours ago, freeform said:

 

How do you know visualisation was used?

 

https://healingtaousa.com/articles/a-history-of-early-daoist-visualization/

http://albanycomplementaryhealth.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/daoist-meditation.pdf

https://www.academia.edu/4212110/To_Become_a_God_Cosmology_Sacrifice_and_Self-Divinization_in_Early_China

 

Puett makes several of his writings available:  https://scholar.harvard.edu/puett/publications?page=2

 

12 hours ago, freeform said:

The earlier methods coming from the Wu people are based around shamanic practices that look to work on the 'earthly plane'... the later practices look to work on 'the heavenly plane'.

 

I agree on WU people.  Not sure I see the latter explanation as successful.   Thanks. 

[freeform]

Wonderful - thanks.

 

The only visualizing I've come across is in Shanqing Daoism (and a couple of others) that involves intricately visualizing deities.

 

There is no old Qi Gong method I know of that involves visualizing Qi, or Dantiens or anything else like that. The effects of internal practice will create a visual inner experience, yes - but that's very different from using imagination to visualize a result.

 

However, modern practitioners and translators - confounded by reading some of the classics, concluded that this is all based on imagination... Here's a wonderful example from one of your sources:

 

9 hours ago, dawei said:

https://healingtaousa.com/articles/a-history-of-early-daoist-visualization/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7

Quote

Of the various early Daoist texts that presage and explicitly describe visualization, two in particular stand out. [...]

[Laozi] regulated the Three Radiances (sanguang ?˝π?), and the Four Numens (siling ??_) were at his side. He maintained his awareness on (or, ?visualized?; cunxiang ???) the elixir field (dantian ????), and on the Purple Chamber (zifang ◊?∑?) of Taiyi ô?? (Great Unity).

 

And

 

[Laozi] joined the radiance of the sun and moon, and became one with the five planets. He entered and exited the Cinnabar Hut (danlu ??_); he ascended and descended the Yellow Court (huangting _?).

 

So this highly 'explicit description of visualization' was actually just "He maintained his awareness"... And I guess maybe some of the terms like "Yellow Court" or "Purple Chamber"...

 

Translations are full of these assumptions and lazy interpretations.

 

I've spoken at length with a number of advanced practitioners in these arts about visualization. None of them use visualization in their own practice.

 

But a few told me how they use visualizations with some of their students.

 

Why use visualization with students when you never use them yourself?

 

One answer I got was along the lines of: 'people that come here don't really want to spend decades developing these skills - they just want to have a nice retreat and feel like they've done something good for themselves.'

 

And I sort of understand their pov - it takes months to even learn to sink your Qi - which has to happen before any actual Qigong can start... so when students come to learn a whole set and theory, you need to give them something juicy or they'll never come back...

 

On the other hand, I think it's disingenuous and damaging to these arts.

 

Any genuine masters that I've met categorically forbid using visualization in training. And once you've built enough Qi to really understand what's happening - it's obvious why... As soon as you start to visualize - Qi rises to the head and you lose Song and Ting...

 

Your Qi and inner awareness have to go up to your head for you to imagine Qi sinking to your dantien.

 

"But how come I feel stuff when I visualize (let's say) a glowing ball in my palm?"

 

That's often a question that comes up. If you focus your mind strongly enough anywhere on your body your nervous system will respond. Focus on your pinky, imagine it glowing or on fire and you'll start to get all manner of subtle sensations, pulsing, throbbing, pressure, heat... this is the product of focused attention interacting with your nervous system.

 

Qigong works through 'awareness of what is' and 'release' - and visualization works through imagination (of what isn't) and holding (a mental image). The two just work in opposite directions. Some teachers use visualizations as sort of training wheels to get things started - but then stop... I'm not sure about this method myself...

 

I remember how a Healing Dao guy came into class held by one of the senior students here... He explained that he's working on fusing the five elements or something like that... I asked how that worked - it involved imagining all kinds of colour balls all over the body, spinning baguas, dragons mating with tigers - then this ball goes here and that ball goes there and the bagua above spins in this direction and the one to the left spins in that direction etc etc...

 

We were just doing simple standing for that class... so he got put in the correct posture (he didn't know what a kwa was)... When I went round to correct people, I briefly touched his lower back just to help him relax it a little - but it seems I accidentally touched his Qi and transferred a bit of Yang Qi... he shrieked, jumped up and started bouncing around the room laughing and spazzing around. It was the first time he felt Qi.

 

He was shocked and confused at first and then really excited... Unfortunately, after a few classes, our main teacher said that he won't be able to continue training with us because Qi was rising to his head too strongly and he couldn't sink it no matter what. I can only assume that after many years of visualization, qi rising to the head became too strongly ingrained. But he was given some practices to do by himself to change that... not sure how he's getting on...

[dawei]

Such goes the way of lost arts. Then man invents new ways and claims them as the right way... folks can do what they can do, but cannot do what they cannot.   Categorically rejecting something because some others say it is not to be done seems to mean, they don’t know how to harness it correctly.

 

if that were the case, then all magic should be dispelled. 

[Lazgrane]

Imo the qi follow yi thing usually doesn't work because the qi movements stimulated by yi will interfere with your natural qi flow, resulting in a chaotic qi movement in your body and end up doing more harm than good. Unless you have a way to quiet down your natural qi flow and ensure your yi-qi movement remain unhindered, you shouldn't try using yi to direct qi.

 

It's also why you shouldn't try moving practices and yi-qi together because their stimulated qi will hinder each others

 

Edit: On OP question, I figured if you are waving your arms randomly you will just produce random qi movements so of course you wouldn't feel a thing?

Edited February 28, 2020 by Lazgrane

[freeform]

1 hour ago, dawei said:

Categorically rejecting something because some others say it is not to be done seems to mean, they don’t know how to harness it correctly.

 

Not categorically - I wasted years trying out visualization based qigong... I've met dozens if not hundreds of people who have too... some for decades.

 

When I finally got introduced into the authentic Daoist circles it became plainly obvious the difference between where visualization gets you and where following the classic principles gets you. Worlds apart.

 

However hard you try to harness a misunderstanding you won't get real results...

 

It's like the difference between a law of attraction aficionado who imagines millions of $ in his bank account VS an actual millionaire who does the actual work that makes the millions of $ in her bank account.

 

4 minutes ago, Lazgrane said:

Imo the qi follow yi thing usually doesn't work because the qi movements stimulated by yi will interfere with your natural qi flow, resulting in a chaotic qi movement in your body and end up doing more harm than good.

 

That's true if you assume that Yi is intention as 'a directed focus of awareness'... it will certainly cause problems.

 

But Yi is a lot more nuanced than that - it's the underlying quality of your mind - not the direction you focus. Yi is achieved with letting go or release... visualization and 'directed intention' are achieved with adding a willful mental action - which is directly the opposite of release.

 

When you can perceive Qi directly, it becomes really quite obvious... When someone is happy and social, their Qi is expanding outwards... when someone is sad their Qi contracts inwards... When someone is still and mentally quiet their Qi brightens - when someone is still and absorbed in an action or in a form (like their body) the Qi thickens and becomes denser.

 

But when someone is imagining their Qi expanding, it goes to their head (and around)... when they imagine their Qi contracting inwards - it goes to their head... when they imagine it circulating around their orbit - it's just in their head... When they imagine their Qi is brighter, it goes to the head etc etc etc... Almost always the same (sometimes heart area).

 

Some people do manage to harness the movement of Qi with focused attention (I've never seen it happen with visualization)... However, this often results in stagnation... One of my teachers was an expert at helping with Qi deviation and 'meditation sickness' etc... Most people who had terrible stagnation were ones who strongly focused their intention (usually on the LDT)... and it can take years to clear stagnation like that.

[Earl Grey]

13 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Not categorically - I wasted years trying out visualization based qigong... I've met dozens if not hundreds of people who have too... some for decades.

 

When I finally got introduced into the authentic Daoist circles it became plainly obvious the difference between where visualization gets you and where following the classic principles gets you. Worlds apart.

 

However hard you try to harness a misunderstanding you won't get real results...

 

It's like the difference between a law of attraction aficionado who imagines millions of $ in his bank account VS an actual millionaire who does the actual work that makes the millions of $ in her bank account.

 

 

That's true if you assume that Yi is intention as 'a directed focus of awareness'... it will certainly cause problems.

 

But Yi is a lot more nuanced than that - it's the underlying quality of your mind - not the direction you focus. Yi is achieved with letting go or release... visualization and 'directed intention' are achieved with adding a willful mental action - which is directly the opposite of release.

 

When you can perceive Qi directly, it becomes really quite obvious... When someone is happy and social, their Qi is expanding outwards... when someone is sad their Qi contracts inwards... When someone is still and mentally quiet their Qi brightens - when someone is still and absorbed in an action or in a form (like their body) the Qi thickens and becomes denser.

 

But when someone is imagining their Qi expanding, it goes to their head (and around)... when they imagine their Qi contracting inwards - it goes to their head... when they imagine it circulating around their orbit - it's just in their head... When they imagine their Qi is brighter, it goes to the head etc etc etc... Almost always the same (sometimes heart area).

 

Some people do manage to harness the movement of Qi with focused attention (I've never seen it happen with visualization)... However, this often results in stagnation... One of my teachers was an expert at helping with Qi deviation and 'meditation sickness' etc... Most people who had terrible stagnation were ones who strongly focused their intention (usually on the LDT)... and it can take years to clear stagnation like that.

 

This needs to be shown to people who insist on focusing on LDT to meditate, especially beginners or "masters" like Pointless.

[Rara]

1 hour ago, Lazgrane said:

Edit: On OP question, I figured if you are waving your arms randomly you will just produce random qi movements so of course you wouldn't feel a thing?

 

Had a thought yesterday...sorry if this has been mentioned already but...

 

...we're not really waving arms anyway. Moreso turning the waist.

[Lazgrane]

34 minutes ago, freeform said:

.....

So the natural qi flow in human are also caused by yi isn't it? In that case the qi-follow-yi-directing-stuff practice is basically using willful mental focus to affect yi which will then stimulate qi movements am I correct?

 

If then does moving practices work the same? using physical movement to stimulate yi which will then stimulate qi?

 

22 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

This needs to be shown to people who insist on focusing on LDT to meditate, especially beginners or "masters" like Pointless.

 

This is a classic noob trap I think. I wonder how many noob traps there are in qi gong

Edited February 28, 2020 by Lazgrane

[Earl Grey]

10 minutes ago, Lazgrane said:

So the natural qi flow in human are also caused by yi isn't it? In that case the qi-follow-yi-directing-stuff practice is basically using willful mental focus to affect yi which will then stimulate qi movements am I correct?

 

If then does moving practices work the same? using physical movement to stimulate yi which will then stimulate qi?

 

 

This is a classic noob trap I think. I wonder how many noob traps there are in qi gong

There are a lot of self-taught people who make up their own crap or look up web searches to do this and say they’re filling up the LDT. I often tell them it’s a waste of time at best and harmful at worst. Few listen, most insist that they know better and I just tell them Icarus flew too close to the sun.

[Rara]

@alchemystical

 

There's some good usedful answers on this page.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Rara
I'm using Firefox for Android and it isn't very good!

[Lazgrane]

7 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

There are a lot of self-taught people who make up their own crap or look up web searches to do this and say they’re filling up the LDT. I often tell them it’s a waste of time at best and harmful at worst. Few listen, most insist that they know better and I just tell them Icarus flew too close to the sun.

I think it might work better if you explain to them why it is harmful? After all qi-stagnation-and-why-it's-bad-for-you should not be too hard a thing to comprehend isn't it?

[Earl Grey]

4 minutes ago, Lazgrane said:

I think it might work better if you explain to them why it is harmful? After all qi-stagnation-and-why-it's-bad-for-you should not be too hard a thing to comprehend isn't it?

You can look at the history of my posts in the forum and see some hostility or dismissal from some members who say either 1) they know people who do it who are just fine, 2) they do it and they are fine, 3) they don’t follow dogma, 4) they ask someone else like Pointless here who says it’s fine.

 

So even when you explain, they make up their own reasons to ignore such caution.

[Sramana]

 

[EmeraldHead]

7 minutes ago, Sramana said:

 

is this charged?

[freeform]

11 minutes ago, Lazgrane said:

So the natural qi flow in human are also caused by yi isn't it?

 

To some extent - yes. It's at the 'subconscious' level you could say.

 

13 minutes ago, Lazgrane said:

In that case the qi-follow-yi-directing-stuff practice is basically using willful mental focus to affect yi which will then stimulate qi movements am I correct?

 

I might misunderstand what you're saying here - so correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Many people think that Yi is a willful mental focus. But that is an incorrect understanding. If you use willful mental focus there are many things that can happen - but this is not the way that Qigong is meant to be done.

 

The correct understanding of Yi is as that it's a mental quality. You can have an expansive mental quality without pushing your awareness out - for example.

 

This is most evident with sinking the Qi - which is a pretty tricky thing to do. I think of it like trying to get a frightened deer to eat from your hand - any wrong move will scare it away (in the case of Qi - it will make it rise!).

 

For Qi to sink your mental quality needs to be still, calm and released... Released - meaning letting go. If you keep that quality for long enough, your qi will naturally settle and sink automatically. This is the correct use of Yi!

 

As soon as you think "oh where was my dantien again?" - Qi will rise... Or if you try to breathe from your belly in a wilfull way - Qi will rise... or if you get excited or distracted or whatever - Qi will rise... just like that frightened deer!

 

There is a slight caveat.

 

If you have some Qi in your Dantient - then the Qi you're trying to sink will be more easily drawn down. This is why some teachers transmit Qi to start the process - makes things much easier. Think of it as a particularly delicious treat for the deer - who's more likely to be brave enough to come eat out of your hand

[Lazgrane]

32 minutes ago, freeform said:

...

Yeah I get it, yi and willful focus is different which is why i was trying to ask if the methods of forcefully directing qi with intent like "strongly focusing on LDT" was in fact 'using willfulness to focus yi then qi will move to where yi are focused'.

 

32 minutes ago, freeform said:

As soon as you think "oh where was my dantien again?" - Qi will rise...

I'm guessing it's because willful thinking start in the head, it will cause yi to focus there which in turn stimulate qi to move upward to where yi are focused, which is the head isn't it. In order to stop this from happening you must prevent yi from being focused, which meant stopping willful thoughts in order to release yi

Edited February 28, 2020 by Lazgrane

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

Few listen, most insist that they know better and I just tell them Icarus flew too close to the sun.

 

Most people simply don't do enough practice to cause themselves obvious harm

 

Regarding Yan Xin - you'll hear some 'visualize but not visualize, imagine but not imagine' type of instructions in his lectures. This is because he realises that he can't possibly explain the intricacies involved to a stadium full of people. So he uses vague terms - so that some people will naturally 'get it' - helped by his transmission.

 

Traditionally only 'inner door students' are taught the intricacies I'm trying to explain.

Edited February 28, 2020 by freeform

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, Lazgrane said:

I'm guessing it's because willful thinking start in the head, it will cause yi to focus there which in turn stimulate qi to move upward to where yi are focused

 

The natural tendency is for Qi to rise. Always. That's what it wants to do. It will only sink when it's undisturbed - like the muddy water in a jar analogy... leave it alone in stillness and the mud will settle to the bottom on its own accord - but move it even a little, and the mud will be stirred up and make the water cloudy again.

 

Willful thinking is a 'movement of mind' - and that stirs up the Qi - which rises. Prolonged thinking requires Qi in the head - so 90% of people are walking around with Qi in their head... In less industrialised nations it's quite different.

[Sramana]

47 minutes ago, EmeraldHead said:

is this charged?

 

Get a chair and do what he says as you listen for one hour.  It will be the best one hour qigong investment you will ever make.

The roots of Spring Forest Qigong are here.

[Lazgrane]

3 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

The natural tendency is for Qi to rise. Always. That's what it wants to do. It will only sink when it's undisturbed - like the muddy water in a jar analogy... leave it alone in stillness and the mud will settle to the bottom on its own accord - but move it even a little, and the mud will be stirred up and make the water cloudy again.

 

Willful thinking is a 'movement of mind' - and that stirs up the Qi - which rises. Prolonged thinking requires Qi in the head - so 90% of people are walking around with Qi in their head... In less industrialised nations it's quite different.

I think if it sink when undisturbed then its natural tendency should be sinking down isn't it? And mind movements disturb qi to stir and rise which is against its natural tendency and bad things happen?