Is chi hardening a thing ?

[Scholar]

If I direct my energy to my hand and punch something, will it make my bones stronger and less prone to breaking ?

[senseless virtue]

You have made a loaded question that reflects your inexperience, so there is no definitive answer.

 

The technique you suggest will probably just break you in multiple levels, both physically and energetically, if you at your level and insufficient skills tried doing it. Does that answer your curiosity?

 

It really seems you have a knack of coming up with new strange ways to test if the stove is really hot and how much it might scald you. I sincerely hope that you keep your masochistic tendencies at purely intellectual level and never gain courage for applying them through your self-invented energy practices.

 

No one ever speaks about any qi hardening because you want to become internally soft, relaxed, and flowing in order to preserve your vitality.

 

The actual hardening skills in kungfu are about conditioning the physical body and its external qi field to respond in a specific manner. The end result is variably called either iron body, iron shirt, or golden bell.

 

Don't expect to find safe instructions without a master's supervision! The point of this is that even small deviations can cause serious damage, so it's important to stick to what is safe and well known practice. One user here on the forum has shared an anecdote about his kungfu GM dying of bone cancer because of flawed iron body training. The GM thought to improve the training by a small adjustment, but unfortunately it didn't only not work, but it actually caused a terminal illness.

 

The other perspective is that trained internal martial artists regularly explode their energy with fajin skill, so there is energy going through the hands. It's a major part of the internal fighting skills to direct internal force and while it can be vitalizing to the practitioner, the real martial aim of this is to be able to break your opponent's bones.

 

Maybe you have already realized it that you have a disposition towards the internal martial arts. I wish you may find a great instructor who can give you training that will provide the peace of heart and intuitive answers you seek instead of fueling uncertainty and anxiety that you try to fill in with asking bad questions online.

Edited February 26, 2020 by virtue

[Rara]

On 26/02/2020 at 4:24 AM, virtue said:

The actual hardening skills in kungfu are about conditioning the physical body and its external qi field to respond in a specific manner. The end result is variably called either iron body, iron shirt, or golden bell.

 

I was just going to say, simply start light hitting a wall bag and gradually increase over time and one will get stronger hands.

[senseless virtue]

37 minutes ago, Rara said:

I was just going to say, simply start light hitting a wall bag and gradually increase over time and one will get stronger hands.

 

Not necessarily a good idea.

 

Conditioning training will not fit all people. If the person hasn't already accomplished quite clear energy pathways and good health as a foundation, then he will likely accumulate blockages and make healing really difficult. A master would be able to tell who is able to benefit from each type of practice.

 

Besides, even healthy people should use traditional Dit Da Jow ("kungfu liniments") in order to clear any accidental blockages caused by the training, preserve the softness of tissue and working of nerves, and increase the benefits of qi sinking into tissue.

[ReturnDragon]

4 hours ago, Rara said:

 

I was just going to say, simply start light hitting a wall bag and gradually increase over time and one will get stronger hands.

 

 

[Rara]

6 hours ago, virtue said:

 

Not necessarily a good idea.

 

Conditioning training will not fit all people. If the person hasn't already accomplished quite clear energy pathways and good health as a foundation, then he will likely accumulate blockages and make healing really difficult. A master would be able to tell who is able to benefit from each type of practice.

 

Besides, even healthy people should use traditional Dit Da Jow ("kungfu liniments") in order to clear any accidental blockages caused by the training, preserve the softness of tissue and working of nerves, and increase the benefits of qi sinking into tissue.

 

Not "necessarily", sure.

 

At the risk of sounding like a broken record....always best finding a teacher.

 

But I'm getting bored using that line over and over on here lol

[Nintendao]

Human body is definitely capable of amazing transformations. Not always as romantic as we might think though. Sometimes "directing energy" into something really is only going to take a lot of hard work over a long period of time?

 

( dont try this at home!)

[Rara]

1 hour ago, Nintendao said:

Human body is definitely capable of amazing transformations. Not always as romantic as we might think though. Sometimes "directing energy" into something really is only going to take a lot of hard work over a long period of time?

 

( dont try this at home!)

 

And some mashed up hands. Impressive, though. The bowl-flick is my favourite.

[senseless virtue]

5 hours ago, Rara said:

And some mashed up hands.

 

The video above is a sorry testimony to reckless self-abuse and the urge to channel a violent impulse in order to feel some semblance of power.

[Earl Grey]

12 minutes ago, virtue said:

 

The video above is a sorry testimony to reckless self-abuse and the urge to channel a violent impulse in order to feel some semblance of power.

 

What he has is conditioning with a little internal training, but still mostly conditioning. 

 

This conditioning, by the way, is actually why the old way of conditioning for iron shirt is unhealthy: people die earlier from trying to show off their skill by being hit as often and as hard as possible. They may not feel the pain, but the body still absorbs all the shock, much like a miner hits the earth with a pickaxe enough times before it gives way. 

[dawei]

4 minutes ago, virtue said:

 

The video above is a sorry testimony to reckless self-abuse and the urge to channel a violent impulse in order to feel some semblance of power.

 

So virtue is to be judgmental now?

 

Did you meet them and know them?  Did you ask them about how they claim to have their ability?  Or you just want to rant here on a video.

 

I remember being in china and asking where to find someone who knew Qigong.  I have tons of stories but I'll just share this partial one.  We went to a restaurant area and was told he would be sitting 'near by'.   There was a guy in rags, bent over like homeless and asleep.  We went up to him and he shook his head to throw the dust off ward and smiled somewhat toothless..  He was covered in dust and was likely the reason he wrote a coat.  When we asked about Qigong, his eyes lightened up.  He walked over to the various bricks that were scattered about due to demolition and he began to break them with ease.   He said, this is just material like the body. easily broken.

 

We went into the restaurant and eat and drank a considerable amount.  I then asked him to share something of his learning about diagnosing people.   At that time, I was mostly interested in Medical Qigong.    he asked me to extend my hand.  He worked the web between the thumb and index finger.  He explained that the body is contained along that bone.  He pushed along my bone and diagnosis me correctly.   I used that many times on others.   I also found a chinese diagram on this.

 

Sometimes, what we see is just an indication of what we have not experienced and do not yet know.  I am not saying that breaking blocks is super power.  But I think we will do a better service by investigating and finding out more information before we judge others. 

[Earl Grey]

10 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

So virtue is to be judgmental now?

 

Did you meet them and know them?  Did you ask them about how they claim to have their ability?  Or you just want to rant here on a video.

 

I remember being in china and asking where to find someone who knew Qigong.  I have tons of stories but I'll just share this partial one.  We went to a restaurant area and was told he would be sitting 'near by'.   There was a guy in rags, bent over like homeless and asleep.  We went up to him and he shook his head to throw the dust off ward and smiled somewhat toothless..  He was covered in dust and was likely the reason he wrote a coat.  When we asked about Qigong, his eyes lightened up.  He walked over to the various bricks that were scattered about due to demolition and he began to break them with ease.   He said, this is just material like the body. easily broken.

 

We went into the restaurant and eat and drank a considerable amount.  I then asked him to share something of his learning about diagnosing people.   At that time, I was mostly interested in Medical Qigong.    he asked me to extend my hand.  He worked the web between the thumb and index finger.  He explained that the body is contained along that bone.  He pushed along my bone and diagnosis me correctly.   I used that many times on others.   I also found a chinese diagram on this.

 

Sometimes, what we see is just an indication of what we have not experienced and do not yet know.  I am not saying that breaking blocks is super power.  But I think we will do a better service by investigating and finding out more information before we judge others. 

 

He's talking about the unhealthy interest in the video from wannabes who find it, not necessarily the person in the video. 

[senseless virtue]

@dawei Interesting story, thanks for sharing.

 

You started with a rather confrontational stance which I find surprising. Maybe you were reading too much into what I wrote?

 

My point of view was the obvious of kungfu context of brick breaking. It's not high qigong or any really special accomplishment, but you seem to suggest that it's within a realm of possibility the guy in video is actually some high level wisdom master. Obviously, I wouldn't know any of that.

 

My bottom line is that with practicality and common sense in mind getting one's hand deformed for a strongman demonstration is not a good and wise investment.

[senseless virtue]

38 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

He's talking about the unhealthy interest in the video from wannabes who find it, not necessarily the person in the video. 

 

I was actually referring to the person for the most part, but yours is a valid point.

 

These strongman shows together with obvious injuries that prove how hard they have pushed themselves. What are they for? Are we to believe that anything is good for health and that discerning wisdom is abundant here? Can we not safely assume that any person willingly undergoing this type of conditioning quite likely possesses a very agitated mindset, or can we?

 

Maybe I am wrong though. The guy really might be doing some real internal training for good health and awesome brick breaking power, but...

 

Spoiler

...his deformed hand could actually be a result of, uh, doing top-grade Iron Croth kungfu and then liking pornography a tiny bit too much. It isn't wise to fight against the sword barehanded.

Edited February 28, 2020 by virtue

[dawei]

5 hours ago, virtue said:

My point of view was the obvious of kungfu context of brick breaking. It's not high qigong or any really special accomplishment, but you seem to suggest that it's within a realm of possibility the guy in video is actually some high level wisdom master. Obviously, I wouldn't know any of that.

your reading too much into what I shared as a story I recalled.  Just a story.   What folks do with stage videos of self mutilation of hands or body is not higher wisdom.

[EmeraldHead]

I will say this. Everything is consciousness. What makes you think food and air chi is holding consciousness? Even in the longevity arts, it's a type of fire to consciousness that while burning, it's necessary as fuel. A consuming fuel.

The elements are not only astral but physical too. They are a tangible 'thing' that can be perceived, increased, used, concentrated, moved around that makes changes in your and your body as well as your personal field which will positively affect that principle in those who come in your field, etc. Some people are naturals while others are born with special configurations/amounts of it, etc.

I will give a hint. Drop all your postheaven and prenatal cultivation away if you want to approach the elements. It will only get in the way and lead astray. Start from zero and seek the elements only. After foundation and you can merge.

Edited February 28, 2020 by EmeraldHead

[Rara]

7 hours ago, virtue said:

 

The video above is a sorry testimony to reckless self-abuse and the urge to channel a violent impulse in order to feel some semblance of power.

 

Yeah. I got not problem with that. If that's what someone wants to do, that's what someone wants to do.

 

Rather him than me. What was it that Bruce Lee said in Enter The Dragon? They don't hit back or something like that

[Rara]

6 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

What he has is conditioning with a little internal training, but still mostly conditioning. 

 

This conditioning, by the way, is actually why the old way of conditioning for iron shirt is unhealthy: people die earlier from trying to show off their skill by being hit as often and as hard as possible. They may not feel the pain, but the body still absorbs all the shock, much like a miner hits the earth with a pickaxe enough times before it gives way. 

 

I gave up MMA for this reason...I like my head in one piece.

[Earl Grey]

9 minutes ago, Rara said:

 

I gave up MMA for this reason...I like my head in one piece.

 

Same--the most dangerous people were the neophytes who came in to try to prove how tough they were and had no control, overdoing things to seriously harm others. The ones with control were the nice experienced people who would encourage me to get better--problem is, half of them were also asshats because they didn't like internal arts. So about 1/4 of MMA people are nice, the others either have no control and hit hard or in the balls while you're trying to be respectful (and claim it simulates a real fight), or diss internal arts. 

[Rara]

1 minute ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Same--the most dangerous people were the neophytes who came in to try to prove how tough they were and had no control, overdoing things to seriously harm others. The ones with control were the nice experienced people who would encourage me to get better--problem is, half of them were also asshats because they didn't like internal arts. So about 1/4 of MMA people are nice, the others either have no control and hit hard or in the balls while you're trying to be respectful (and claim it simulates a real fight), or diss internal arts. 

 

I'm starting to love this word, "asshats", or for me, "arsehats".

 

Exactly my experience. After our wing chun school shut, a few of us along with other friends started a little MMA group where we would cross-train with BJJ, Thai Boxing and Judo guys. We had about 7 of us and would rent cages and get so much done with little injury other than natural soreness.

 

With interest to compete, and with others hanging up the gloves having kids, moving away/on, I joined my closest and most reputable MMA gym. Credit where it's due, the instructor teaches good stuff and over this whole period, I became a much more rounded fighter. However, LESS than 1/4 had control. One guy rolled over on my arm so hard he nearly snapped it off. Then new guys would come in who "used to box" and then treat sparring like it was a UFC main event.

 

Therefore, I kicked a few people harder than I should have then decided to leave. I never made competition because I was often to injured to train.

 

If I had the mindset, I'd push through the pain, carry on and try and get a competitive fight in or two. But is it really worth it for maybe a photograph of a memory which may later be lost to some sort of amnesia anyway?

 

 

[Earl Grey]

29 minutes ago, Rara said:

 

I'm starting to love this word, "asshats", or for me, "arsehats".

 

Exactly my experience. After our wing chun school shut, a few of us along with other friends started a little MMA group where we would cross-train with BJJ, Thai Boxing and Judo guys. We had about 7 of us and would rent cages and get so much done with little injury other than natural soreness.

 

With interest to compete, and with others hanging up the gloves having kids, moving away/on, I joined my closest and most reputable MMA gym. Credit where it's due, the instructor teaches good stuff and over this whole period, I became a much more rounded fighter. However, LESS than 1/4 had control. One guy rolled over on my arm so hard he nearly snapped it off. Then new guys would come in who "used to box" and then treat sparring like it was a UFC main event.

 

Therefore, I kicked a few people harder than I should have then decided to leave. I never made competition because I was often to injured to train.

 

If I had the mindset, I'd push through the pain, carry on and try and get a competitive fight in or two. But is it really worth it for maybe a photograph of a memory which may later be lost to some sort of amnesia anyway?

 

 

 

Yeah, there is a need for respect, and as MMA gyms have a lot of new people cycling in and out who all think they're ready to fight for their lives and show how tough they are, they go all out. I've seen this even in Wing Chun and other styles for beginners in large groups--if a Sifu is around and sees that in a small group, then pfft: they're out of the school or they are doing 200 knuckle pushups for showing disrespect through no restraint. 

 

There's an MMA fitness gym nearby me, and the owner is constantly provoking me to fight him in front of his girlfriend or randomly trying to pick me up or explain techniques in a situation. I ignore him and he usually takes the satisfaction of thinking I don't know how to fight, but when I asked him what his experience is on the street, he revealed he'd never been on the street, only in the octagon. It made a lot of sense--those of us who have brawling experience aren't inclined to show off or jump into frenzy...

 

There's a reason they call it martial "arts". 

[Nintendao]

Wow, Beefmaster Fistybricks there got a few thought provoking responses! Here's a follow-up.

Spoiler

 

The impression I get is still less about violence or even ego than of sheer pride and respect for an obscure form of training that gave his ancestors an edge on the battlefield. Who knows what else is he a cultivator or just want a gimmick to intimidate or impress or score a few bucks on talent shows. What if it's a truly rough neighborhood and having a weapon built into one's body still has practical benefits? Or they could be just plain nuts for no reason other than they can

 

Google Translate on the vid title:
70岁农村大叔苦练铁砂掌30年，一只手拿出来都能吓坏西洋鬼子！
The 70-year-old rural uncle worked hard for iron sand palms for 30 years, and one hand can scare Western devils!

 

30 years of slapping a training bag. Energy over time! It's so simple, but easily overlooked. Totally agree that too many people just seek the end result for the wrong reasons, and without even understanding what it is. This is all of course only one indisputable example to making "bones stronger and less prone to breaking," as stated in OP.

 

What's maybe worse is the guys doing this exact same kind of thing, but wearing silk robes and going through some mystical looking energy summoning routine before doing the break..

[Nintendao]

So what’s the real answer here then? Short of belittling the question, and the purely physical approach, and giving examples of things that aren’t it, is there known to be some specific sort of temporary “structural integrity field” siddhi?
 

I mean I guess we can go ahead and call this one a “no” even if it has to be wrapped in a “that’s not even how any of this works” or “such knowledge is not meant for you” but it can be neat to think about sometimes.

[Earl Grey]

2 hours ago, Nintendao said:

So what’s the real answer here then? Short of belittling the question, and the purely physical approach, and giving examples of things that aren’t it, is there known to be some specific sort of temporary “structural integrity field” siddhi?
 

I mean I guess we can go ahead and call this one a “no” even if it has to be wrapped in a “that’s not even how any of this works” or “such knowledge is not meant for you” but it can be neat to think about sometimes.

 

I learned a few methods for iron shirt/golden bell from my teachers. 

 

From one, he says if you or his teacher get kicked in the balls, it will hurt the opponent's foot, and squeezing his balls is like squeezing a bag full of sharp rocks. I dare not test this on him or for myself.

 

Another one uses a breathing and movement method, is purely internal, took him about 8 years to get to the point where if his cat tries to bite him, it can't even close its mouth on him. He can be hit with metal bats, doesn't get fazed by broken glass or nails, and says the qi simply fills in the empty cavities. His main use for it is healing as it has helped his toothaches before quite a lot. 

 

The main method I have used is mostly tapping and slapping the body, as well as the earlier video slapping the cushion on the stool. I don't use it much because I'm lazy and found that the breathing method is still fantastic as I had been punched in the face by a drunk a couple years ago who had confused me for someone else and I didn't feel a thing. 

[Nintendao]

@Earl Grey that sounds cool asf. Especially the part about the qi fills the empty cavities. It reminds me of something Lao Tzu said about the Tao being like an empty vessel, whose use is inexhaustible. What all that means in practice is of course no more transmittable here than if you could literally reach through the screen and punch me. It’s really that big a difference I think. Just imagine that! It doesn’t even make sense. I mean, I can totally picture it happening, but if it actually happened I might freak out.
 

So now back to @Scholar - I hope your question is hypothetical. I can understand curiosity of what all’s out there. Or is it something you actually hope to try? (even though it’s already been made clear why you probably shouldn’t) In either case, are you able to elaborate a little on what it means to “direct my energy to my hand”?