Nature of God is also Sunyata?

[tantien]

Most Buddhists I've heard from claim the true nature of everything is empty - or Sunyata. Or rather, emptiness is the underlying nature of everything. Does this include God?

Thanks.

[rideforever]

It's not empty.  It's just empty of your mind. 

When the mind is quiet ... are you dead ?  For instance between thoughts ?
No you are not dead and you are not empty, it is just that it is very unfamiliar to you to be without noise ... so you can "oh wow it's all empty". 

Well ... it's not empty at all.

You are used to having an "identity" based upon the images and mind noise and whatnot ... so when the mind is quiet something deeper is revealed.

It is not empty, but like a new lover it takes time to get to know what you actually are.

To be honest the lack of intelligence of people saying ... you don't exist, nothing exists, there is nothing to do, everything is nothing, everything is empty  ... but still let's do meditation really hard for 20 years ... does that really make any sense?  No.  If that what the case then why bother. 
And for many people who churn around these miserable negative ideas ... they never really meditate.  They just want an excuse to die slowly on the cushion whilst never making any effort because "it's all empty".  Then they repeat their miserable ideas to other poor victims ... just like drunks offer you a bottle because they like company. 
These ideas are very silly and also dangerous.
There very much is something to do and something to gain, and that thing if you get it ... is yours.

 

Are you willing to use your intelligence ?  If it doesn't make sense to you and you keep doing it ... you are refusing to use your intelligence.  Does it really make sense to you to become nothing ?  Of course not.
Humanity is scared to develop their own intelligence ... even if inside they are thinking "why the hell do I want not to exist?" .... they just keep doing it and they just keep saying it.
They are afraid of their own mind ... their mind says .... "I hope there is a better reason to do all this shit then not existing because not existing sounds like it sucks" ... but they don't listen.
Then they say ... "oh no my mind is hurting me, kill the ego."
Your mind is not hurting you ... it is trying to provide intelligence, it is trying to understand.

For thousands of years people just repeat the same old crap.

 

Some teachers tell you how to take evasive action if "mind attacks".
For instance if your mind is saying : "this is a rip off I am being overcharged" ... then these teacher show you how to not listen to your mind !!!!!!!
Ha ha.

It is good to disidentify from the unconscious mind ... so that you can experience the inner space and your inner being and merge with the universal space of god.  At some point you will have to integrate that with the mind and make the mind more intelligent and learn to use the mind and so on.   Many areas of work.
 

Edited March 1, 2020 by rideforever

[doc benway]

45 minutes ago, tantien said:

Most Buddhists I've heard from claim the true nature of everything is empty - or Sunyata. Or rather, emptiness is the underlying nature of everything. Does this include God?

Thanks.

 

There is a problem with mixing paradigms. The way I suspect you are using the word God is not a part of the Buddhist paradigm so the question isn’t valid. Buddhists do not posit a single, all powerful creator, there are many gods and goddesses and, yes, they are not exceptions to sunyata. The concept of emptiness does apply to everything - both self and other. But emptiness does not mean non-existence, it means more along the lines of lack of inherent, independent existence. Buddhists who understand sunyata do not deny existence, it’s more a matter of recognizing inter-dependence or connectedness. 

[Walker]

1 hour ago, rideforever said:

It's not empty.  It's just empty of your mind. 

When the mind is quiet ... are you dead ?  For instance between thoughts ?
No you are not dead and you are not empty, it is just that it is very unfamiliar to you to be without noise ... so you can "oh wow it's all empty". 

Well ... it's not empty at all.

You are used to having an "identity" based upon the images and mind noise and whatnot ... so when the mind is quiet something deeper is revealed.

It is not empty, but like a new lover it takes time to get to know what you actually are.

To be honest the lack of intelligence of people saying ... you don't exist, nothing exists, there is nothing to do, everything is nothing, everything is empty  ... but still let's do meditation really hard for 20 years ... does that really make any sense?  No.  If that what the case then why bother. 
And for many people who churn around these miserable negative ideas ... they never really meditate.  They just want an excuse to die slowly on the cushion whilst never making any effort because "it's all empty".  Then they repeat their miserable ideas to other poor victims ... just like drunks offer you a bottle because they like company. 
These ideas are very silly and also dangerous.
There very much is something to do and something to gain, and that thing if you get it ... is yours.

 

Are you willing to use your intelligence ?  If it doesn't make sense to you and you keep doing it ... you are refusing to use your intelligence.  Does it really make sense to you to become nothing ?  Of course not.
Humanity is scared to develop their own intelligence ... even if inside they are thinking "why the hell do I want not to exist?" .... they just keep doing it and they just keep saying it.
They are afraid of their own mind ... their mind says .... "I hope there is a better reason to do all this shit then not existing because not existing sounds like it sucks" ... but they don't listen.
Then they say ... "oh no my mind is hurting me, kill the ego."
Your mind is not hurting you ... it is trying to provide intelligence, it is trying to understand.

For thousands of years people just repeat the same old crap.

 

Some teachers tell you how to take evasive action if "mind attacks".
For instance if your mind is saying : "this is a rip off I am being overcharged" ... then these teacher show you how to not listen to your mind !!!!!!!
Ha ha.

It is good to disidentify from the unconscious mind ... so that you can experience the inner space and your inner being and merge with the universal space of god.  At some point you will have to integrate that with the mind and make the mind more intelligent and learn to use the mind and so on.   Many areas of work.
 

 

Do you know what the word "emptiness," from the Sanskrit śūnyatā, means in a Buddhist context? Can you please explain your understanding of this term by offering your definition of its meaning in Buddhism?

 

I ask you these questions because your answer leads me to think you do not know what śūnyatā means to Buddhists. Before I write anything else I would like to make sure I have not misunderstood what you are trying to say.

[rideforever]

35 minutes ago, Walker said:

 

 

Our structure inner being path and realisation is not "Buddhist", it is an aspect of reality.

Buddha was also not a "Buddhist" and after he had trained with various established teachers ... he stopped following; and trusted his inner reality; then he arrived at self-realisation.

This trusting of your inner being, or your inner intelligence, of not following fools and foolish ancient words ... is the main point.

The last thing "Buddha" did before realisation was to touch the Earth and realised that he himself as he was ... was worthy.

He no longer needed to cower behind other people's garbage.

He trusted his reality.

 

As for "Buddhist theory" ... many of the often repeated lists of numbers, the 4 this, the 8 that ... if you actually look them up you realise that they are not authentic and do not originate from the man Buddha.  Why people keep repeating the 4 this and the 8 that is because they are stupid people as they should know they are not authentic.

 

Next thing is the theory of dependent origination and 5 aggregates : the idea is that you analyse yourself to death then you will find you don't exist.  
Interesting theory, people talk about this a lot.  They go over it again and again.  Dependent origination.
But who's five aggregates are supposed to be empty?
Yours or Buddhas ?
You think you are the same as Buddha ?
Buddha was able to grant realisation to his students in a few days.
Can you ?  No.

Why the hell would what is inside you be the same as what's inside him?

So if you analyse your 5 aggregates and find them empty .. what does that mean for Buddha?
Nothing.
Because he has much higher abilities than you.  He is not empty.

 

If you want to analyse anybody's 5 aggregates .. then analyse HIS.  Because he is the enlightened person.

Furthermore Buddha awoke his students in a few days or weeks. 
Today this does not happen.
Therefore what is happening today is not "Buddhism".
It's mindless time wasting.
He taught by direct mind to mind transmission, he did not give "dharma farting talks".

Buddha's exemplary behaviour was :
1. take available meditation training work hard achieve results (8 jhanas)
2. dump your teacher because realisation is about you and not being a sheep
3. confront yourself and become yourself, touching the earth to recognize your own personal intrinsic worthiness
 

Vipassana

The next item on my hit list is the technique of Vipassana where you scan your body in a minute and subtle way and then determine its emptiness and therefore your emptiness.  Right ... or not right?
Well the obvious question is ... who is doing the fking scanning?  Forget about the body, who is scanning?  Can you feel ... who it is.
That's you.
Okay ... where do you think you are hiding ... in the sock draw?
Under the fridge ?
You are not under the fridge ... you are doing the scanning !!!
Who else?
How many people are in here anyway ????!!!

You are the one who is reading this garbage I am writing ... you are the one doing the scanning.
Forget about the body, and turn the scanning beam around.
Start there.
In fact Samatha (anapana) practice is much closer to turning the beam around and imo is the real practice.  Samatha should include Vipassana within it.  As you "concentrate" (i.e. focus your attention) you should sensitively feel the origin of emanation of the concentration ... i.e. you.  And you should merge with this origin in the forehead and wake the fk up.
It requires sensitive feeling inside.
As your attention rests on the nostrils .. feel inside the forehead for he who is the origin of attention and merge with it like you are getting into a warm bath.

 

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by rideforever

[Walker]

That was certainly very interesting.

 

But...

 

Can you define what śūnyatā means in a Buddhist context?

 

(You seem to be using "empty" in its standard, day-to-day sense in English)

[rideforever]

13 minutes ago, Walker said:

śūnyatā

Hello walker.  I don't like that you aren't showing yourself. 

I am not interested in your question, sorry. 

I think I have said everything I can say about the subject.

[Walker]

8 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Hello walker.  I don't like that you aren't showing yourself. 

I am not interested in your question, sorry. 

I think I have said everything I can say about the subject.

 

 In Buddhism, "emptiness" can most easily be understood as "emptiness of" two things which most humans habitually impute in objects and phenomena they encounter:

 

1. Separate existence

2. Permanence

 

In other words, and in very simple terms, when a Buddhist says things are empty, this means things are:

 

1. Existent entirely on the basis of causes and and conditions external to the thing itself (ie, "un-separate")

2. Impermanent

 

The interpretation of the word emptiness that you use to inform your posts about Buddhism in this thread is, in the context of Buddhism, a fundamental and grievous misinterpretation. You mistakenly understand the word as a statement on the ultimate nihilism of things. It is not that.

 

Your misinterpretation is so basal that it nullifies everything else you just said.

 

Please learn more about Buddhism before holding forth about Buddhism.

 

If any students of Buddhism here can supplement or critique my attempt to speak about the word śūnyatā (which is quite often presented incorrectly in this forum), please do so.

[Creation]

2 hours ago, tantien said:

Most Buddhists I've heard from claim the true nature of everything is empty - or Sunyata. Or rather, emptiness is the underlying nature of everything. Does this include God?

Thanks.

Yes, and this was a bone of contention between Buddhists and Hindu's in ancient India.

[SirPalomides]

Mistaking sunyata for nihilism is the most basic mistake and has been refuted pretty much since the doctrine was first elaborated. There is no excuse for anyone to misrepresent sunyata as a nihilist view.

[rideforever]

4 minutes ago, Walker said:

In other words, and in very simple terms, when a Buddhist says things are empty, this means things are:

1. Existent entirely on the basis of causes and and conditions external to the thing itself (ie, "un-separate")

2. Impermanent

 

Well walker, you finally jumped out from your hiding place and sprung your silly trap.

But, I already covered dependent origination and the stupidity of it further up.

 

 ... "when a Buddhist says" ....  

 

What do you think Siddharta would say to see you hiding behind ... "when a Buddhist says" ...

trying to retreat into a flock of sheep.

 

You think he wants you to repeat some garbage, or think for yourself?
The whole point of his journey was to become an individual.

[SirPalomides]

3 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

Well walker, you finally jumped out from your hiding place and sprung your silly trap.

But, I already covered dependent origination and the stupidity of it further up.

 

 ... "when a Buddhist says" ....  

 

What do you think Siddharta would say to see you hiding behind ... "when a Buddhist says" ...

trying to retreat into a flock of sheep.

 

You think he wants you to repeat some garbage, or think for yourself?
The whole point of his journey was to become an individual.

IOW “I got caught talking bullshit again so now I’ll try to make this personal”

[rideforever]

The thing is that ... many people are career Buddhists.

Which is ironic given the message of the man, which was to find your self ... not to attach yourself to one of the culture's current favourite flagpoles.

People who are stapling themselves to a popular tradition don't really want to discover themselves; there is a lot of courage and pain involved in walking away, as Buddha did many times.

And there is a time and a place to do it.

[SirPalomides]

Just now, rideforever said:

The thing is that ... many people are career Buddhists.

Which is ironic given the message of the man, which was to find your self ... 

Wow, really? Explain how you determined “find your self” was his message and what this actually means.

[Wu Ming Jen]

True emptiness is not empty it is the source. the universe is 99% empty. The great image is image-less.

 

If i was to ask do you remember where you came from before you had a body and you say I do not know (it is unknown) that is the emptiness that contains all things. As soon as mind knows and it is spoken then we are immediately wrong only half truths can be spoken.

[Walker]

43 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

Well walker, you finally jumped out from your hiding place and sprung your silly trap.

But, I already covered dependent origination and the stupidity of it further up.

 

 ... "when a Buddhist says" ....  

 

What do you think Siddharta would say to see you hiding behind ... "when a Buddhist says" ...

trying to retreat into a flock of sheep.

 

You think he wants you to repeat some garbage, or think for yourself?
The whole point of his journey was to become an individual.

 

Your level of self-delusion is astounding. I agree with those who have questioned your sanity here. I don't mean that as an insult. I mean that as a splash of ice water in your face, even though the likelihood of these words having such an effect is minimal. Probably best to leave it at that. Good bye, silly man.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Walker

[rideforever]

The central message of Buddhism is :

"Every man for himself"

[rideforever]

28 minutes ago, Walker said:

I agree with those who ... 

 

Of course you do.

Your personal intelligence has reached the level when you can agree with groups of people ... "what Buddhist say" or "what other people say" ..

Well .. it's a start, just build on that, perhaps one day you can have an opinion that does not come from a group ... but comes from your self.

[SirPalomides]

1 minute ago, rideforever said:

 

Of course you do.

Your personal intelligence has reached the level when you can agree with groups of people ... "what Buddhist say" or "what other people say" ..

Well .. it's a start, just build on that, perhaps one day you can have an opinion that does not come from a group ... but comes from your self.

 

[SirPalomides]

3 hours ago, tantien said:

Most Buddhists I've heard from claim the true nature of everything is empty - or Sunyata. Or rather, emptiness is the underlying nature of everything. Does this include God?

Thanks.

As others have pointed out, God as understood in classic theist traditions doesn’t really have a place in Buddhism. That is, God being understood as the ultimate ground of being and not just the most powerful being among other beings. But if we do take the dubious path of trying to find a correspondence then the closest thing in Buddhism to God would be sunyata itself.

[ilumairen]

3 hours ago, rideforever said:

It's not empty.  It's just empty of your mind. 

When the mind is quiet ... are you dead ?  For instance between thoughts ?
No you are not dead and you are not empty, it is just that it is very unfamiliar to you to be without noise ... so you can "oh wow it's all empty". 

 

Quieting the mind is not the definition, nor should it be the reification, of emptiness.

 

This is misunderstanding.

 

3 hours ago, rideforever said:

To be honest the lack of intelligence of people saying ... you don't exist, nothing exists, there is nothing to do, everything is nothing, everything is empty  ... but still let's do meditation really hard for 20 years ... does that really make any sense?

 

This is also misunderstanding, and if anyone is denying what is referred to as conventional reality, they are simply sharing in your misunderstanding. 

 

Conventionally objects exist, and they are empty of their own (somehow magically non dependent) intrinsic nature.  

 

3 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

  No.  If that what the case then why bother. 
And for many people who churn around these miserable negative ideas ... they never really meditate. 

 

They would be miserable ideas as you present them from your erroneous view - which is generally labeled nihilism, and is a clearly designated pitfall on the path. It is considered an extreme to be avoided.

 

 

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, Walker said:

 

 In Buddhism, "emptiness" can most easily be understood as "emptiness of" two things which most humans habitually impute in objects and phenomena they encounter:

 

1. Separate existence

2. Permanence

 

In other words, and in very simple terms, when a Buddhist says things are empty, this means things are:

 

1. Existent entirely on the basis of causes and and conditions external to the thing itself (ie, "un-separate")

2. Impermanent

 

The interpretation of the word emptiness that you use to inform your posts about Buddhism in this thread is, in the context of Buddhism, a fundamental and grievous misinterpretation. You mistakenly understand the word as a statement on the ultimate nihilism of things. It is not that.

 

Your misinterpretation is so basal that it nullifies everything else you just said.

 

Please learn more about Buddhism before holding forth about Buddhism.

 

If any students of Buddhism here can supplement or critique my attempt to speak about the word śūnyatā (which is quite often presented incorrectly in this forum), please do so.

 

I'll supplement what you said as it relates to personal practice.

In meditation, emptiness does refer to empty of the mind, empty of the sense of a personal, individual self.

This does not mean that there are no thoughts or emotions coming up (the point I think ilumairen just made), rather it relates to our relationship to them, our tendency to identify with them. When we no longer identify, the content is free to arise and self-liberate.

Rideforever posted some inaccurate stuff about emptiness and Buddhism, IMO, but the pith instruction in the first line of his first post has been very useful for me.

 

 

[ilumairen]

 

2 minutes ago, steve said:

Rideforever posted some inaccurate stuff about emptiness and Buddhism, IMO, but the pith instruction in the first line of his first post has been very useful for me.

 

Yes, if he had stopped at a few words it would have been golden.

 

[ralis]

This discussion has been in this forum before which went nowhere! 
 

Buddhists defining emptiness semantics as an absolute quality of phenomena. Words are only a collective agreement as a way to effectively communicate and have no absolute meaning. 

[doc benway]

2 minutes ago, ralis said:

This discussion has been in this forum before which went nowhere! 
 

Buddhists defining emptiness semantics as an absolute quality of phenomena. Words are only a collective agreement as a way to effectively communicate and have no absolute meaning. 

 

In other words, words are empty also...