nCov19 Development and Prevention Discussion Only

[Walker]

I just used my ninth eye powers to try and see what faffforever looks like. All that was revealed to me was...

[silent thunder]

5 hours ago, GSmaster said:

 

Sore throat and runny nose are not the symtpoms of Covid-19, there are less than 3-4% of people with such symptoms with this disease.

Nice to know you're paying attention and trying to keeping score.

Everyone needs a hobby.

 

Not claiming i have it, (it's not a badge)

We're operating on the assumption that they have it, to be proactive against possible spread.

 

peace.

[gendao]

7 hours ago, silent thunder said:

if it rises to 101.5 we treat with acetominophen.

Why only 101.5 and not until max tolerance (say, 104) to burn out more of the virus?

[silent thunder]

Sustained fever above 103 is dangerous.

 

I don't mind a low grade fever to percolate, but high fever is dangerous, particularly in younger humans whose bodies don't self regulate as well as adults.

[ralis]

Capitalism is a death cult! We may be witnessing the beginning of the end of capitalism.

 

 

[senseless virtue]

11 minutes ago, ralis said:

Capitalism is a death cult!

 

Depends what you mean by capitalism. In my opinion what we have running rampant is top-down trickle of cronyism and cleptocracy.

 

Capitalism has performed alright under certain conditions. It wasn't that long ago that public stock exchange companies were required by law that their board of executives have the majority of their salary tied into the public shares of the company, which was a very moderating policy for rational and ethical decision making. Nowadays the executives have very little to lose for having bad and greedy decisions, and in fact may even receive huge inflated bonuses because they artificially stimulate excess shareholder dividends. We also had the antithetical view to the current economical maxim that the business corporation exists only to produce profit for the shareholders. The corporations used to build public parks and it was expected them to have an eye for benefiting the society. Today the situation really is awful in that corporations are still legally presented as persons with all the benefits that come with it and may possess huge lobbying power because of their wealth, but there is next to nothing asked in return for citizen duties and responsibilities. That is awkward and unbalanced in my opinion.

 

Would you agree that these changes I am highlighting could make capitalism work much better for humanity instead of exploitation we see commonly now?

 

Personally, I don't have much faith in any particular type of economical or state governing scheme. It really is about how good people are running the show, which is mostly a function of the society and the people themselves.

[thelerner]

1 hour ago, gendao said:

Why only 101.5 and not until max tolerance (say, 104) to burn out more of the virus?

 

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

Sustained fever above 103 is dangerous.

 

I don't mind a low grade fever to percolate, but high fever is dangerous, particularly in younger humans whose bodies don't self regulate as well as adults.

I was just wondering about this myself.  From my limited reading starting around 103 is good, but much seems to depend on the person's overall health at the time.

[rideforever]

2 hours ago, Walker said:

Sir

 

At ease Walker ... there is no need to call me Sir on the forum.  

 

Yeah, you know I used to be a liberal, radical liberal.  When I was young.  But then I realised how stupid it was imagining money grows on trees.  I worked for some NGOs for a few years in London, I was pretty passionate about saving the world back then.  But after working shoulder to shoulder with these guys ... I started realising they were cowardly worms, with statistics.

Ultimately I realised that they would fail because they were gutless cowards.
And so it has proven.

Glad I left when I did.

[silent thunder]

I'm sure the feeling was mutual mate.

 

[rideforever]

24 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

I'm sure the feeling was mutual mate.

 

Not really, I got some nice books from Greenpeace after I left and some mugs with tigers on them.
I had worked hard for them, I just realised they were going to fail.

That's not of interest to most people, who live as straw dogs, have families ... and all of them die as straw dogs.

[GSmaster]

5 hours ago, silent thunder said:

keeping score

 

???

[senseless virtue]

1 hour ago, GSmaster said:

???

 

Spoiler

 

Edited March 28, 2020 by virtue

[silent thunder]

that.

and...

[Walker]

6 hours ago, rideforever said:

 

Not really, I got some nice books from Greenpeace after I left and some mugs with tigers on them.
I had worked hard for them, I just realised they were going to fail.

That's not of interest to most people, who live as straw dogs, have families ... and all of them die as straw dogs.

 

Buncha straw dogs, poop cats, cherry marmots... When I was young I worked for the ACLU and marched with King... Then I got turned down by this lady in accounting... Saw the wisdom of the KKK... That Bolsonaro is a fine leader... Burn the natives out of the Amazon, I always say... Who finished my coffee, why is my cup empty... Why do they change the free Wi-Fi password every day... The font on this phone is too small... Where was I... Oh right, I was telling you how my dantian got enlightened... Look at those terrible children over there... Did you know they sell discount shoes at Tesco? They comfortable, they're stylish, and they have STREAM LINES!

 

 

[Walker]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/america-learn-new-york/608875/

[rideforever]

14 hours ago, Walker said:

Buncha straw dogs

 

Not sure I understand anything you wrote, but I think it's your turn to open up a thread of woe, about how unfair the internet is.

The rest of the ghosts have done.

[rideforever]

German clinician thinks CV19 is only hysteria.

 

 

[ralis]

34 minutes ago, rideforever said:

German clinician thinks CV19 is only hysteria.

 

 

He did not say it is only hysteria! He was comparing public health practices or lack thereof between different cultures and how that effects the rate of infection/mortality. 

[rideforever]

21 minutes ago, ralis said:

He did not say it is only hysteria! He was comparing public health practices or lack thereof between different cultures and how that effects the rate of infection/mortality.

 

Did you watch the end ?

[ralis]

14 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

Did you watch the end ?

To take one part of the interview out of context is not being responsible. 

[rideforever]

8 minutes ago, ralis said:

To take one part of the interview out of context is not being responsible. 

 

No, at the end of the interview he makes his conclusions which are that the CV business is a hysteria not borne out by the numbers or risks, and that will damage the health and economy of Germany for no reason.

[SirPalomides]

Helpful graphic:

[moment]

Interview was 3-19-20

 

LARRY BRILLIANT SAYS he doesn’t have a crystal ball. But 14 years ago, Brilliant, the epidemiologist who helped eradicate smallpox, spoke to a TED audience and described what the next pandemic would look like. At the time, it sounded almost too horrible to take seriously. “A billion people would get sick," he said. “As many as 165 million people would die. There would be a global recession and depression, and the cost to our economy of $1 to $3 trillion would be far worse for everyone than merely 100 million people dying, because so many more people would lose their jobs and their health care benefits, that the consequences are almost unthinkable.”

Now the unthinkable is here, and Brilliant, the Chairman of the board of Ending Pandemics, is sharing expertise with those on the front lines. We are a long way from 100 million deaths due to the novel coronavirus, but it has turned our world upside down. Brilliant is trying not to say “I told you so” too often. But he did tell us so, not only in talks and writings, but as the senior technical advisor for the pandemic horror film Contagion, now a top streaming selection for the homebound. Besides working with the World Health Organization in the effort to end smallpox, Brilliant, who is now 75, has fought flu, polio, and blindness; once led Google’s nonprofit wing, Google.org; co-founded the conferencing system the Well; and has traveled with the Grateful Dead.

We talked by phone on Tuesday. At the time, President Donald Trump’s response to the crisis had started to change from “no worries at all” to finally taking more significant steps to stem the pandemic. Brilliant lives in one of the six Bay Area counties where residents were ordered to shelter in place. When we began the conversation, he’d just gotten off the phone with someone he described as high government official, who asked Brilliant “How the fuck did we get here?” I wanted to hear how we’ll get out of here. The conversation has been edited and condensed.

 

Steven Levy: I was in the room in 2006 when you gave that TED talk. Your wish was “Help Me Stop Pandemics.” You didn't get your wish, did you?

Larry Brilliant: No, I didn't get that wish at all, although the systems that I asked for have certainly been created and are being used. It's very funny because we did a movie, Contagion—"

 

Stephen Levy: "We're all watching that movie now."

 

Larry Brilliant: "People say Contagion is prescient. We just saw the science. The whole epidemiological community has been warning everybody for the past 10 or 15 years that it wasn't a question of whether we were going to have a pandemic like this. It was simply when. It's really hard to get people to listen. I mean, Trump pushed out the admiral on the National Security Council, who was the only person at that level who's responsible for pandemic defense. With him went his entire downline of employees and staff and relationships. And then Trump removed the [early warning] funding for countries around the world".

 

Stephen Levy: "I've heard you talk about the significance that this is a “novel” virus."

 

Larry Brilliant: "It doesn't mean a fictitious virus. It’s not like a novel or a novella".

 

Levy:  "Too bad."

 

Brilliant:  "It means it's new. That there is no human being in the world that has immunity as a result of having had it before. That means it’s capable of infecting 7.8 billion of our brothers and sisters."

 

Levy: "Since it's novel, we’re still learning about it. Do you believe that if someone gets it and recovers, that person thereafter has immunity?"

 

Brilliant: "So I don't see anything in this virus, even though it's novel, [that contradicts that]. There are cases where people think that they've gotten it again, [but] that's more likely to be a test failure than it is an actual reinfection. But there's going to be tens of millions of us or hundreds of millions of us or more who will get this virus before it's all over, and with large numbers like that, almost anything where you ask “Does this happen?” can happen. That doesn't mean that it is of public health or epidemiological importance."

 

Levy: "Is this the worst outbreak you’ve ever seen?"

 

Brilliant: "It's the most dangerous pandemic in our lifetime."

 

Levy: "We are being asked to do things, certainly, that never happened in my lifetime—stay in the house, stay 6 feet away from other people, don’t go to group gatherings. Are we getting the right advice?"

 

Brilliant: "Well, as you reach me, I'm pretending that I'm in a meditation retreat, but I'm actually being semi-quarantined in Marin County. Yes, this is very good advice. But did we get good advice from the president of the United States for the first 12 weeks? No. All we got were lies. Saying it’s fake, by saying this is a Democratic hoax. There are still people today who believe that, to their detriment. Speaking as a public health person, this is the most irresponsible act of an elected official that I've ever witnessed in my lifetime. But what you're hearing now [to self-isolate, close schools, cancel events] is right. Is it going to protect us completely? Is it going to make the world safe forever? No. It's a great thing because we want to spread out the disease over time.

 

"Flatten the curve. By slowing it down or flattening it, we're not going to decrease the total number of cases, we're going to postpone many cases, until we get a vaccine—which we will, because there's nothing in the virology that makes me frightened that we won’t get a vaccine in 12 to 18 months. Eventually, we will get to the epidemiologist gold ring.

What’s that?That means, A, a large enough quantity of us have caught the disease and become immune. And B, we have a vaccine. The combination of A plus B is enough to create herd immunity, which is around 70 or 80 percent.I hold out hope that we get an antiviral for Covid-19 that is curative, but in addition is prophylactic. It's certainly unproven and it's certainly controversial, and certainly a lot of people are not going to agree with me. But I offer as evidence two papers in 2005, one in Nature and one in Science. They both did mathematical modeling with influenza, to see whether saturation with just Tamiflu of an area around a case of influenza could stop the outbreak. And in both cases, it worked. I also offer as evidence the fact that at one point we thought HIV/AIDS was incurable and a death sentence. Then, some wonderful scientists discovered antiviral drugs, and we've learned that some of those drugs can be given prior to exposure and prevent the disease. Because of the intense interest in getting [Covid-19] conquered, we will put the scientific clout and money and resources behind finding antivirals that have prophylactic or preventive characteristics that can be used in addition to [vaccines]."

 

Levy: "When will we be able to leave the house and go back to work?"

 

Brilliant: "I have a very good retrospect-oscope, but what's needed right now as a prospecto-scope. If this were a tennis match, I would say advantage virus right now. But there's really good news from South Korea—they had less than 100 cases today. China had more cases imported than it had from continuous transmission from Wuhan today. The Chinese model will be very hard for us to follow. We're not going to be locking people up in their apartments, boarding them up. But the South Korea model is one that we could follow. Unfortunately, it requires doing the proportionate number of tests that they did—they did well over a quarter of a million tests. In fact, by the time South Korea had done 200,000 tests, we had probably done less than 1,000."

 

Levy: "Now that we've missed the opportunity for early testing, is it too late for testing to make a difference?"

 

Brilliant: "Absolutely not. Tests would make a measurable difference. We should be doing a stochastic process random probability sample of the country to find out where the hell the virus really is. Because we don't know. Maybe Mississippi is reporting no cases because it's not looking. How would they know? Zimbabwe reports zero cases because they don't have testing capability, not because they don't have the virus. We need something that looks like a home pregnancy test, that you can do at home."

 

Levy: "If you were the president for one day, what would you say in the daily briefing?"

 

Brilliant: "I would begin the press conference by saying "Ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce you to Ron Klain—he was the Ebola czar [under President Barack Obama], and now I’ve called him back and made him Covid czar. Everything will be centralized under one person who has the respect of both the public health community and the political community." We're a divided country right now. Right now, Tony Fauci [head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases] is the closest that we come to that."

Edited March 29, 2020 by moment

[ralis]

Dr. Trump is directing government agencies to experiment with Chloroquine and Hydrochloroqine because he feels really good about it. Directing from ongoing research is really dangerous. 
 

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/03/heres-what-we-know-and-dont-know-about-possible-coronavirus-treatments-promoted-by-trump/

[Zork]

On 3/22/2020 at 4:11 PM, C T said:

Testimony from one Jordan Campbell who suffers from Quinism (the side effects of drugs classified under Quinolines) 

 

 

Throughout the 1990’s and beyond, I suffered unexplainable, crushing fatigue, bizarre neurological and cognitive issues and an altogether mysterious malaise—a devastating illness that I wouldn’t hex on my worst enemy. I didn’t climb for years and at one point, I could barely walk around the block. Moreover, I quietly concealed profound depression, reckless and unexplainable suicidal explorations to simply end what I can only describe as an unthinkable physical, mental and emotional nightmare. Through the grand mystery of ‘what happened in India’ and the years of recovery after, I continued to chase the dream of climbing mountains around the world. Unaware that I had a brain injury, I took several more expeditions to extreme high altitude (in Nepal, Tibet, Peru) where in some perverse way I felt like the apocalypse of what I had experienced somehow all made sense.

 

In 2008, more than 16 + years after the expedition, I randomly stumbled on an NPR story about the U.S. soldier murder-suicides at Fort Bragg—all pointing to an anti-malarial drug named Lariam [Mefloquine] as a likely the cause—along with the drug’s list of dark side effects that described my life in the 1990’s to the letter. Like the thousands of soldiers serving in our post 9-11 wars, diplomats, Peace Corps volunteers and civilians traveling the world to malarial areas, one common theme surfaced: we were poisoned. As a writer and freelance journalist, I reported on the story for Climbing and Outside magazines and even secured a 3500-word exposé for a well-known New York publication about the dangerous administration of the Mefloquine to our soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq. I interviewed numerous veterans, victims, the pharmaceutical companies, doctors and clinicians and the FDA—I even interviewed officials at the U.S. Department of Defense. In 2012, the magazine killed my exposé—no surprise with a war weary public and a controversial ‘Jacob’s Ladder’ story—but after years of whistleblowing on Mefloquine, I just had to push a way from the table.

 

I have now lived with this disease for 28 years (this April). Once called Mefloquine Neurotoxicity Syndrome, it’s now being officially and clinically accepted by the veteran, PTSD and military communities as an official disease called “Quinism.” There are countless stories about the neurotoxic dangers of Mefloquine and Quinolines found through Google searches; there is now even an advocacy non-profit organization, fortified by science and research, called The Quinism Foundation. With somewhat advancing age, I struggle daily with the neurological issues from being poisoned clear back in 1992. These issues include speech and swallowing problems, body shocks, foot dragging, extreme fatigue, respiratory problems and alarming blood oxygen saturation issues. I also deal with classic brain injury problems: headaches, cognition, confusion and memory loss. This has, no surprise, affected all areas of my life personally, professionally and of course my ability to pursue climbing and mountaineering, a timeless place I look to for balance, clarity and spiritual growth.

 

Today I’m sharing with you, with unimaginable humility and gratitude (yes, every day is a gift…) my very personal and dark climber’s tale as a public service announcement with one main message: Quinolines, a specific class of anti-malarial drugs—are extremely dangerous. They affect a high percentage of people who take them—from Chloroquine, Mefloquine to a new generation called Tafenoquine. Quinolines have been administered to soldiers across the decades in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan—the side effects of poisoned soldiers mimicking PTSD—and an estimated 35million + people worldwide have taken Mefloquine. My opinion after 12+ years of investigation and research: using Quinoline drugs in any way is like playing Russian Roulette with your health: it doesn’t matter if you’re an elite Navy SEAL, Army Ranger or world-class athlete, a grandmother or a nine-year-old: your body is not above the drug when it goes neurotoxic in your bloodstream.

 

My decision to broadcast my story on social media today is my attempt to ‘jump in front of the bulldozer’ and to sound the alarm for those who may be asked or recommended to take Chloroquine for COVID-19. I recognize the administrations’ intention may be honorable to help the greater public good at this time, but if you’ve come this far reading I’ll only close by asking that you do your best to become educated about the side effects of Chloroquine, Mefloquine—and the entire family of Quinoline's—and know that Quinism is an irreversible disease that has silently affected millions of people around the world.

Anti malaria drugs have serious side effects and this is already known to people who know about malaria and how to battle it.