nCov19 Development and Prevention Discussion Only

[Walker]

 

6 minutes ago, C T said:

but refuses to acknowledge the possibility that there's currently a greater evil in the world that requires vigilant scrutiny.

 

False.

 

Nowhere have I weighed, compared, or contrasted the various "evils" of this world. I have nowhere here said that the CCP is more or less wrong than any other group. Nowhere have I said that being realistic about the CCP requires ignoring or otherwise being unvigilant about any other group. 

 

Rather, I have taken great umbrage with your whitewashing of the CCP's past and present behavior, especially since this has involved nonsensical claims such:

1. Your specious claim that the invasion and ongoing suppression of Tibet being "just a small blip."
2. Your baseless idea that the PRC provides no-strings-attached aid around the world.
3. Tour risible notion that somehow the CCP operates "like nature" and that those living under its dominion can get "all that one desires."

Somehow the CCP's brutal, bloodthirsty ravaging of the Tibetan land and its people is just "a small blip" that we shouldn't let color our understanding of their governance, and yet my tendency to drop a few F-bombs and scoff at stupidity means it's time for C T to slam on the brakes and start complaining about manners. Makes sense!

 

Now, as for whether or not I'm a hero, actually, I'm perfectly happy to be labeled just another jackass on the internet. 

 

But,

 

Me being a jackass does not change the fact that you have failed to contemplate any of the counterpoints and evidence I have posted, and are instead doing more than:

 

Wasting more time latching onto questions of etiquette.

[Earl Grey]

@Walker, perhaps this trope is most applicable to why the CCP is so popular: 

 

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainWithGoodPublicity

[senseless virtue]

On 4/2/2020 at 2:10 PM, C T said:

save for one small blip - Tibet

Nazis ‘were only a blip in Germany’s glorious past,’ says AfD co-leader Alexander Gauland

Do you remember this statement that shocked in Europe?

[Walker]

4 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainWithGoodPublicity

 

Good publicity that fills some deep-seated-but-liminal psychological yearnings...

[C T]

 

[Walker]

8 minutes ago, C T said:

 

 

Very dramatic eyebrows and wild gesticulation.

 

But,

 

Within the first two minutes alone he has already uttered so many half-truths and falsehoods that I am finished with him.

 

@C T, I can clearly explain what they are, but not until you address the other points that have been made to you. I do not need to waste my time writing to explain things to a man who will not read and contemplate. 

 

The old "I am just going to ignore everything people write and start replying with YouTube link potshots so that talking heads can do my thinking for me" routine is close to the epitome of intellectual laziness. Again, you were smarter when you stuck to talking about things you have actually studied and experienced.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Walker

[C T]

28 minutes ago, virtue said:

Nazis ‘were only a blip in Germany’s glorious past,’ says AfD co-leader Alexander Gauland

Do you remember this statement that shocked in Europe?

You've taken my comment out of context, so, in the hope of some objectivity, let me clarify: The small blip was in reference to China's modern record of diplomacy in engaging with other nations. Comparatively, the relentless record of on-going, prolonged oppressive manipulation by the US far exceeds the severity of that one aggressive undertaking from China. I shouldn't need to quote the past atrocities of the US to put things into proper perspective, but when considering the bigger picture, such perspectives do matter. 

[Earl Grey]

4 minutes ago, C T said:

 

 

I actually met and know Kishore personally. He has a lot of interesting opinions, but unfortunately, this is not the same thing. 

 

Yes, Xi's CCP is not the same as Hu or Deng or Mao. This is a false conclusion and misdirection though. Personal freedom at the cost of suppression or the history of oppression, then going into Chinese civilization as synonymous with society is terrible.

 

Kishore here is flying the CCP's banner and speaking as someone who comes from Singapore, which has a love for authoritarianism with some personal freedoms--personal freedoms based off of consumerism primarily. It is as though he is praising how comfortable a cage is rather than the fact it is still a cage.

[C T]

2 minutes ago, Walker said:

 

Very dramatic eyebrows and wild gesticulation.

 

But,

 

Within the first two minutes alone he has already uttered numerous half-truths and falsehoods that I am finished with him.

 

@C T, I can clearly explain what they are, but not until you address the other points that have been made to you. I do not need to waste my time writing to explain things to a man who will not read and contemplate. 

 

The old "I am just going to ignore everything people write and start replying with YouTube link potshots so that talking heads can do my thinking for me" routine is close to the epitome of intellectual laziness. Again, you were smarter when you stuck to talking about things you have actually studied and experienced.

 

Clearly we will not agree as the fundamental premise have been ignored. Your stubborn refusal to accept that Im not a CCP supporter/sympathiser prevents further engagement. This is what I meant when I alluded to what imo constitutes a 'hero' as per Earl Grey's post. 

[Earl Grey]

4 minutes ago, C T said:

The small blip was in reference to China's modern record of diplomacy in engaging with other nations.

 

Oh boy, as someone who has seen China's "diplomacy" firsthand in Cambodia and the Philippines, Tanzania, and Sri Lanka, I am going to bite my tongue before this goes even further into everything wrong with the CCP, even though sadly, they are very much responsible for nCoVid19 as well as the nations that rewarded their bad behavior because of how China is their sacred cow and goose that lays golden eggs. 

 

I am no Gringo-lover either as Confessions of an Economic Hitman is a very similar playbook that is as inspiring to China's tactics as China inspires others too. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by Earl Grey

[C T]

3 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

I actually met and know Kishore personally. He has a lot of interesting opinions, but unfortunately, this is not the same thing. 

 

Yes, Xi's CCP is not the same as Hu or Deng or Mao. This is a false conclusion and misdirection though. Personal freedom at the cost of suppression or the history of oppression, then going into Chinese civilization as synonymous with society is terrible.

 

Kishore here is flying the CCP's banner and speaking as someone who comes from Singapore, which has a love for authoritarianism with some personal freedoms--personal freedoms based off of consumerism primarily. It is as though he is praising how comfortable a cage is rather than the fact it is still a cage.

 

Lets not engage in idealisms, which is an endless tunnel. Instead, it may be more helpful to have some sort of reference points to compare the atrocities of CCP, with say, the US, since they are both currently occupying for pole positions on the world stage. 

[Earl Grey]

1 minute ago, C T said:

 

Lets not engage in idealisms, which is an endless tunnel. Instead, it may be more helpful to have some sort of reference points to compare the atrocities of CCP, with say, the US, since they are both currently occupying for pole positions on the world stage. 

 

We can compare atrocities all day, there is no doubt both the US and CCP have a long list each.

 

This is not the point though that Walker is making. 

[C T]

4 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Oh boy, as someone who has seen China's "diplomacy" firsthand in Cambodia and the Philippines, Tanzania, and Sri Lanka, I am going to bite my tongue before this goes even further into everything wrong with the CCP, even though sadly, they are very much responsible for nCoVid19 as well as the nations that rewarded their bad behavior because of how China is their sacred cow and goose that lays golden eggs. 

 

I am no Gringo-lover either as Confessions of an Economic Hitman is a very similar playbook that is as inspiring to China's tactics as China inspires others too. 

 

Its a fact that China buys favours instead of resorting to covert tactics for establishing power grabs. This doesn't mean they are wrong, because to consider wrong, then we need to ask, What/who sets the standard for what is right? Certainly not you nor I. Maybe Walker can? I don't know. 

[Walker]

2 minutes ago, C T said:

Clearly we will not agree as the fundamental premise have been ignored. Your stubborn refusal to accept that Im not a CCP supporter/sympathiser prevents further engagement. This is what I meant when I alluded to what imo constitutes a 'hero' as per Earl Grey's post. 

 

I gather that you do not identify as a CCP supporter.

 

I note that you do not positively appraise their human rights record.

 

And yet I observe that you repeat numerous CCP propaganda talking points here, specifically the three that I listed above.

 

The dissonance between what I gather, note, and observe is your responsibility. It is up to you to resolve, or not, as it were. Kishore certainly can't do it for you, and nor will complaints about my manners make that dissonance go away.

 

1 minute ago, Earl Grey said:

This is not the point though that Walker is making. 

 

Amen! 

 

Fuck false dichotomies and false choices based upon them.

 

2 minutes ago, C T said:

Certainly not you nor I. Maybe Walker can? I don't know. 

 

Ah, yes. First manner policing, then goodbye, then back again for more, but still no reply to any point I made before. Now an attempt to bait me into a philosophical discussion. 

 

No, first deal with what was said before if you want to play philosophy. 

[C T]

Which country have been subjected to Chinese aggression in modern history? 

 

Alternatively, which country(s) have experienced progress by reliance on Chinese technology and the might of the Yuan?

How much have the US borrowed from China? Despite this, they continue to rain on the parade, much to China's amusement, I think.  

 

Lets be objective instead of relying on anecdotes and emotional table tennis. 

[Earl Grey]

11 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Its a fact that China buys favours instead of resorting to covert tactics for establishing power grabs. This doesn't mean they are wrong, because to consider wrong, then we need to ask, What/who sets the standard for what is right? Certainly not you nor I. Maybe Walker can? I don't know. 

 

I just helped research into some of the projects here in the Philippines such as the Kaliwa Dam project, a favorite of the Philippine lapdog Duterte and something the CCP is keen on loaning money to help realize.

 

The CCP are actually quite wrong because they are working against the interest of the people and instead in the interest of oligarchs and demagogues, some who were propped up by Chinese propaganda trolls just like Russians did for the United States--a significant reason Duterte won was that he has his own army of trolls paid for by China. Put up a leader who is receptive to Chinese debt diplomacy and reap the benefits--how nice. 

 

The West Philippine Sea, the projects that move their goalposts further, the interest and inability to pay debts as seen in African nations, Sri Lanka, Cambodia, Pakistan, and eventually here show that yes, it is absolutely wrong.

 

To give a simple analogy, you can convince me to sign a deal and tell me it's good for me, but there are strings attached and the information given to present to me what appeared to be a good deal turns out to be a dud and I am now enslaved by debt.

 

This is a bait and switch tactic: I agree to X with you, but what you present as X is actually ABC and YZ, which I did not know about and it instead screws me over. It is about as fair as dealing with the mafia.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Earl Grey

[C T]

3 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

I just helped research into some of the projects here in the Philippines such as the Kaliwa Dam project, a favorite of the Philippine lapdog Duterte. 

 

They are actually quite wrong because they are working against the interest of the people and instead in the interest of oligarchs and demagogues, some who were propped up by Chinese propaganda trolls just like Russians did for the United States--a significant reason Duterte won was that he has his own army of trolls paid for by China.

 

The West Philippine Sea, the projects that move their goalposts further, the interest and inability to pay debts as seen in African nations, Sri Lanka, Cambodia, Pakistan, and eventually here show that yes, it is absolutely wrong.

 

To give a simple analogy, you can convince me to sign a deal and tell me it's good for me, but there are strings attached and the information given to present to me what appeared to be a good deal turns out to be a dud and I am now enslaved by debt.

 

This is a bait and switch tactic: I agree to X with you, but what you present as X is actually ABC and YZ, which I did not know about and it instead screws me over. It is about as fair as dealing with the mafia.

 

Are you arguing for no-strings-attached economic deals between nations as opposed to common practice, or are you arguing for strong-arm takeovers that the US is famous for? The former, unfortunately, only happens in utopian world ideals. Thats not even worth contemplation at this juncture, is it? 

[Earl Grey]

Just now, C T said:

 

Are you arguing for no-strings-attached economic deals between nations as opposed to common practice, or are you arguing for strong-arm takeovers that the US is famous for? The former, unfortunately, only happens in utopian world ideals. Thats not even worth contemplation at this juncture, is it? 

 

Is it not possible for you to stop making false dichotomies and straw man arguments, platitudes, and diversions from what is actually being presented? I am finding it difficult to discuss this matter with you because of the loaded questions you are presenting. 

[C T]

2 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Is it not possible for you to stop making false dichotomies and straw man arguments, platitudes, and diversions from what is actually being presented? I am finding it difficult to discuss this matter with you because of the loaded questions you are presenting. 

 

But then, how are we to talk about the apparent misdeeds of the CCP without at least some sort of comparison being made? If your preference is to simply mock the CCP's human rights and economic policies, then yes, I agree with you fully they're far from ideal. That ends the debate conveniently, yes? This then raises other questions, but when doing so, you resort to the above stance. So the difficulty is not arising from this side, it seems. 

[Earl Grey]

1 minute ago, C T said:

 

But then, how are we to talk about the apparent misdeeds of the CCP without at least some sort of comparison being made? If your preference is to simply mock the CCP's human rights and economic policies, then yes, I agree with you fully they're far from ideal. That ends the debate conveniently, yes? This then raises other questions, but when doing so, you resort to the above stance. So the difficulty is not arising from this side, it seems. 

[C T]

Whatever...

[C T]

Lets have a CCP bashfest then. lol

[C T]

It's only possible to see people when one is able to see the world as others see it. 

 

Rings a bell, Earl Grey? 

[Earl Grey]

3 minutes ago, C T said:

Whatever...

 

2 minutes ago, C T said:

Lets have a CCP bashfest then. lol

[Earl Grey]

1 minute ago, C T said:

It's only possible to see people when one is able to see the world as others see it. 

 

Rings a bell, Earl Grey? 

Way to show that not only are you not familiar with RAW and his writings, but trying to use my own signature against me is an exercise in futility, given that I can see how others see the world, but that doesn’t mean I have to agree with them.