Dawg's Awakening

[thelerner]

There have been some good discussions here on enlightenment and awakening.   Ones that didn't get immediately short circuited by critics with other ideas.  Thought we could discuss Dawg's recipe for Awakening from a 2013 thread.  What's good, what's questionable, what can we learn from it.

 

Dawg-

FIVE STEPS ON THE PATH TO AWAKENING

Step (1)… Concentration (samahdi)…this is developing the ability to temporarily stop the voice in your conscious mind, so that your mind is quiet and peaceful… this is the first step in regaining control of your conscious mind…

Step (2)… Getting rid of “anger” (dislike) and “greed” (like)… anger and greed are the two sides of the same coin… understanding that when someone makes you angry or greedy, that they are not only controlling you, but they are also stealing your energy…and then learning how to remain indifferent, so that you no longer respond with anger or greed…

You will not be punished for your anger; you will be punished by your anger… (Buddha)

Step (3)… Reaching equanimity (“live” and “let live”)… Realizing and accepting that other people have different opinions and beliefs than you, and that their opinions and beliefs are just as valid as yours… a person with equanimity is never sucked into arguments with others, about who is right, and who is wrong…nor do they become upset if they are beset by the “slings and arrows of outrageous fortune”…equanimity is a state of psychological stability and composure which is undisturbed by experience of, or exposure to emotions, pain, or other phenomena that may cause others to lose the balance of their mind…

Step (4)… Body investigation… understand that you are not a body and personality with a spirit; understand that you are an ancient spirit with a new body and personality…understand that you are not your “body” or your “personality”… understand that you are an ancient immortal “spirit” with a temporary “body” and “personality”, and that you have had an uncountable number of bodies and personalities in the past… understand that the spirit that is you could not “die” even if you wanted it to, and that when your body dies, your spirit is alive in the spirit world, and if you have not attained enlightenment, your spirit reincarnates in another physical body and personality…

Step (5)…”The middle path”… the “truth of our existence” is that there is no “reality… everything just “is”, nothing is good or bad… good and bad are just value judgments of mundane reality… and mundane reality is just a survival strategy created by humans to ensure the survival of the species… “the truth of our existence” is that we live in a universe of “cause” and “effect”… consider that in the physical world that if you stick your hand in a fire (the cause), the effect is that your hand will get burned… does that mean that the fire is “bad”,

 

No!... it is just the truth of our existence... in the spiritual world, “intention” is the “cause”, and “karma” is the “effect”… if you intentionally harm another person (cause), you will create “karma”, karma that harms you (effect)… this is the truth of our existence... this is the reason why it is necessary for you to make everything (and everything means everything) “neutral” (middle path, neither good nor bad ) to reach “awakening”… consider a “screwdriver”.., is it good or bad..? No… it is neutral… it is just a useful tool if you want to drive a screw…this is being indifferent, treat everything with this kind of indifference…you must be able to hold this attitude of indifference, long enough for mundane reality to collapse and vanish permanently, to reach awakening… once you reach awakening it is permanent…when you reach awakening, you will “know”… it is impossible not to “know”…

[thelerner]

1 minute ago, thelerner said:

FIVE STEPS ON THE PATH TO AWAKENING

 

Step (1)… Concentration (samahdi)…this is developing the ability to temporarily stop the voice in your conscious mind, so that your mind is quiet and peaceful… this is the first step in regaining control of your conscious mind…

<NOTE  The above are not my writings, they're from Dawg's 2013 thread.  It should read Dawg said:.  I should have found and quoted it directly instead of copy and pasted but I'm lazy.>

 

Seems like a universal first step.  My Aikido sensei used to say be in the state of nothing that is something.  Don't be in the nothing that is nothing.. ie quiet peaceful but with a bright awareness, not dullness.

 

1 minute ago, thelerner said:

Step (2)… Getting rid of “anger” (dislike) and “greed” (like)… anger and greed are the two sides of the same coin… understanding that when someone makes you angry or greedy, that they are not only controlling you, but they are also stealing your energy…and then learning how to remain indifferent, so that you no longer respond with anger or greed…

Good stuff.  I like the linking of anger to 'dislike' and greed to 'like'.  I've also found the concept of trying to move desires into preferences helpful.   

 

 

1 minute ago, thelerner said:

You will not be punished for your anger; you will be punished by your anger… (Buddha)

Step (3)… Reaching equanimity (“live” and “let live”)… Realizing and accepting that other people have different opinions and beliefs than you, and that their opinions and beliefs are just as valid as yours… a person with equanimity is never sucked into arguments with others, about who is right, and who is wrong…nor do they become upset if they are beset by the “slings and arrows of outrageous fortune”…equanimity is a state of psychological stability and composure which is undisturbed by experience of, or exposure to emotions, pain, or other phenomena that may cause others to lose the balance of their mind…

This board is certainly a test of ones equanimity.  The fighting and arguing with strangers, who most of the time you have no chance of changing there mind. Nothing wrong with arguing but it descending into name calling and nastiness way to quickly here.  Bad form for a philosophy site.  In honesty a condition I'm not above. 

1 minute ago, thelerner said:

Step (4)… Body investigation… understand that you are not a body and personality with a spirit; understand that you are an ancient spirit with a new body and personality…understand that you are not your “body” or your “personality”… understand that you are an ancient immortal “spirit” with a temporary “body” and “personality”, and that you have had an uncountable number of bodies and personalities in the past… understand that the spirit that is you could not “die” even if you wanted it to, and that when your body dies, your spirit is alive in the spirit world, and if you have not attained enlightenment, your spirit reincarnates in another physical body and personality…

Not bad, very spiritual, not sure I buy it though.  I'm still modern enough to consider my being more physical then spiritual, but I'm working on it.  And for spiritual advancement it probably the better paradigm.

 

1 minute ago, thelerner said:

Step (5)…”The middle path”… the “truth of our existence” is that there is no “reality… everything just “is”, nothing is good or bad… good and bad are just value judgments of mundane reality… and mundane reality is just a survival strategy created by humans to ensure the survival of the species… “the truth of our existence” is that we live in a universe of “cause” and “effect”… consider that in the physical world that if you stick your hand in a fire (the cause), the effect is that your hand will get burned… does that mean that the fire is “bad”,

 

No!... it is just the truth of our existence... in the spiritual world, “intention” is the “cause”, and “karma” is the “effect”… if you intentionally harm another person (cause), you will create “karma”, karma that harms you (effect)… this is the truth of our existence... this is the reason why it is necessary for you to make everything (and everything means everything) “neutral” (middle path, neither good nor bad ) to reach “awakening”… consider a “screwdriver”.., is it good or bad..? No… it is neutral… it is just a useful tool if you want to drive a screw…this is being indifferent, treat everything with this kind of indifference…you must be able to hold this attitude of indifference, long enough for mundane reality to collapse and vanish permanently, to reach awakening… once you reach awakening it is permanent…when you reach awakening, you will “know”… it is impossible not to “know”…

 

[thelerner]

On 3/1/2014 at 8:04 AM, dawg said:

A BRIEF SUMMARY OF THE PATH TO AWAKENING

“DELUSION” is the toxic voice of your thoughts in your conscious mind… many people believe that their thoughts are somehow useful to them… and believe that the inner voice of their thoughts is there to help guide them to make better choices so that they will create a happy, joyful, comfortable, fulfilling and successful life for themselves… If this were true then they would find themselves feeling satisfied, happy, confident, relaxed, at ease, peaceful, positive, optimistic, good about themselves, successful, fulfilled and worthy…

But if we consider what it really feels like to have that critical inner voice living inside our conscious mind, we will invariably notice that it makes us feel inadequate, weak willed, lacking confidence, unmotivated, risk averse, overly cautious, fearful of making mistakes, paralyzed, anxious, confused, unable to make clear and focused decisions, incompetent, sad, stuck, pessimistic about the future, unworthy and so on… which prevents us from being able to create a successful and fulfilling life… it is this voice, that creates all of our dissatisfaction and suffering…it is the voice of delusion… but don’t dislike or hate it, that is clinging to it… instead just think of it as the “voice of childish ignorance” and dismiss it as having no credibility… simply be indifferent to it...

Meditation… The whole object of meditation from start to finish, is gaining control of, and permanently silencing that voice in the conscious mind… the voice that is coming directly from the subconscious mind… that voice which is the voice of your “conditioning”… that voice is not your voice, it is the voice of “mundane reality”, it is the voice of all the other people who have taught you what you should believe is “real”… that voice is how the mundane world controls your thoughts and actions… that voice is the voice of your karma, it is how your karma (conditioning) controls your life…that voice is the voice of your delusion…that voice is the source of all your dissatisfaction and suffering… when you destroy that voice permanently, your subconscious mind becomes enlightened, and “awakens” as if from a dream, and you “know” and understand “the truth of your existence”… and once you “know”, it is impossible not to “know”…and because now the voice is gone, the conscious mind becomes “empty” and “serenely peaceful”…

Note…you get rid of the “voice” by systematically purifying your mind of the mundane conditioning that is creating the voice… it does not matter what method you use to purify the mind, and destroy delusion, that is of no importance… all that is important is that the method works for you…

Breathing during meditation… When meditating and observing our breath, we should not control our breath with our conscious mind, but instead let our subconscious mind do our (automatic) breathing for us, then we should be aware that by observing our breath now, that we are observing our subconscious mind taking care of us, and get in sync with it, and then simply let go, and let it “lead the way”… this helps to set up “investigation”, or set up “communication”, and/or “interaction” with the subconscious mind…

FIVE STEPS ON THE PATH TO AWAKENING

Step (1)… Concentration (samahdi)…this is developing the ability to temporarily stop the voice in your conscious mind, so that your mind is quiet and peaceful… this is the first step in regaining control of your conscious mind…

Step (2)… Getting rid of “anger” (dislike) and “greed” (like)… anger and greed are the two sides of the same coin… understanding that when someone makes you angry or greedy, that they are not only controlling you, but they are also stealing your energy…and then learning how to remain indifferent, so that you no longer respond with anger or greed…

You will not be punished for your anger; you will be punished by your anger… (Buddha)

Step (3)… Reaching equanimity (“live” and “let live”)… Realizing and accepting that other people have different opinions and beliefs than you, and that their opinions and beliefs are just as valid as yours… a person with equanimity is never sucked into arguments with others, about who is right, and who is wrong…nor do they become upset if they are beset by the “slings and arrows of outrageous fortune”…equanimity is a state of psychological stability and composure which is undisturbed by experience of, or exposure to emotions, pain, or other phenomena that may cause others to lose the balance of their mind…

Step (4)… Body investigation… understand that you are not a body and personality with a spirit; understand that you are an ancient spirit with a new body and personality…understand that you are not your “body” or your “personality”… understand that you are an ancient immortal “spirit” with a temporary “body” and “personality”, and that you have had an uncountable number of bodies and personalities in the past… understand that the spirit that is you could not “die” even if you wanted it to, and that when your body dies, your spirit is alive in the spirit world, and if you have not attained enlightenment, your spirit reincarnates in another physical body and personality…

Step (5)…”The middle path”… the “truth of our existence” is that there is no “reality… everything just “is”, nothing is good or bad… good and bad are just value judgments of mundane reality… and mundane reality is just a survival strategy created by humans to ensure the survival of the species… “the truth of our existence” is that we live in a universe of “cause” and “effect”… consider that in the physical world that if you stick your hand in a fire (the cause), the effect is that your hand will get burned… does that mean that the fire is “bad”, No!... it is just the truth of our existence... in the spiritual world, “intention” is the “cause”, and “karma” is the “effect”… if you intentionally harm another person (cause), you will create “karma”, karma that harms you (effect)… this is the truth of our existence... this is the reason why it is necessary for you to make everything (and everything means everything) “neutral” (middle path, neither good nor bad ) to reach “awakening”… consider a “screwdriver”.., is it good or bad..? No… it is neutral… it is just a useful tool if you want to drive a screw…this is being indifferent, treat everything with this kind of indifference…you must be able to hold this attitude of indifference, long enough for mundane reality to collapse and vanish permanently, to reach awakening… once you reach awakening it is permanent…when you reach awakening, you will “know”… it is impossible not to “know”…

**********************************

You can search throughout the entire universe for someone who is more deserving of your love and affection than you are yourself, and that person is not to be found anywhere. You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe deserve your love and affection… (Buddha)

Forgive yourself for not being perfect…realize that you are no better or worse than anybody else… be totally honest with yourself, and love yourself… otherwise you will be unable to be honest with others, or love others… accept and forgive yourself just the way you are… if you are unable to calm your mind when you sit down to meditate, forgive yourself for not being perfect and at peace, this takes the stress out of the situation so it is easier to be at peace…offer no resistance to “the way things are”, or you will set up inner conflict… whatever happens “just is”, it is not “good” or “bad”, it is neutral…”be indifferent”, don’t make “value judgments”, just let everything flow past you…you are always “here”, and the time is always “now”…

Dawg

Here's the thread.  Quoting from it will avoid thelerner said, and give credit to Dawg.

Edited March 11, 2020 by thelerner

[rideforever]

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[rideforever]

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[rideforever]

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Edited March 11, 2020 by rideforever

[rideforever]

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[thelerner]

rideforever, thanks. 

 

I understand your point, some of it is 'pop' new age'ism, but much of its not.  Some of the points are worth considering and discussing.  I guess this is to discuss what good, what's bad.  As I wrote some of the ghost stuff is not in my sphere of thinking.

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by thelerner

[Limahong]

6 hours ago, thelerner said:

There have been some good discussions here on enlightenment and awakening.   Ones that didn't get immediately short circuited by critics with other ideas.  Thought we could discuss Dawg's recipe for Awakening from a 2013 thread.  What's good, what's questionable, what can we learn from it.

 

Good morning Michael,

 

Thank you for the (re)focus on enlightenment and awakening.

 

I will read them at my own time and determine ~ What's good, what's questionable, what can I learn from it.

 

I promise ~ Not to change there their content, usually to improve grammmar and flow.

 

 

 

- Anand

 

 

[doc benway]

8 hours ago, thelerner said:

Meditation… The whole object of meditation from start to finish, is gaining control of, and permanently silencing that voice in the conscious mind… the voice that is coming directly from the subconscious mind… that voice which is the voice of your “conditioning”… that voice is not your voice, it is the voice of “mundane reality”, it is the voice of all the other people who have taught you what you should believe is “real”… that voice is how the mundane world controls your thoughts and actions… that voice is the voice of your karma, it is how your karma (conditioning) controls your life…that voice is the voice of your delusion…that voice is the source of all your dissatisfaction and suffering… when you destroy that voice permanently, your subconscious mind becomes enlightened, and “awakens” as if from a dream, and you “know” and understand “the truth of your existence”… and once you “know”, it is impossible not to “know”…and because now the voice is gone, the conscious mind becomes “empty” and “serenely peaceful”…

 

Most of what you've posted from Dawg are basic methods and principles of the Buddhist path.

All solid advice.

 

What is posted above is misleading and, I suspect, conjecture or simply misguided.

The objective of meditation is not permanently silencing the inner voice, at least not on the tantric and dzogchen paths.

We certainly do need to first notice the voice consistently, then work towards reducing the noise so that we can connect more with the underlying silence, the stillness, the openness, which are characteristics of the nature of our mind rather than only its content, which is our usual life experience.

 

While we live as humans it is not possible, or even desirable, to silence it completely as far as I can tell.

Thinking it is completely silent is often a sign that we're not fully aware of its presence in us, it can be extraordinarily subtle and wily.

The objective of meditation, at least on the path I follow, is to recognize the voice for what it is and to dis-identify with it by realizing a deeper, purer, more comprehensive and pervasive reality of who we are, of our full potential.

We can reach a point where the voice comes and goes and no longer interferes with a deeper realization of being. 

First we find that on the cushion and, if we are diligent enough, we can find that in every moment.

The voice naturally becomes progressively less noisy, less omnipresent, less of a driving force in our lives, but is never gone.

It is an important and valuable part of who we are, of the human condition.

To strive to silence it completely and permanently is not the path, that is an error, at least in the teachings I follow.

 

Here is a brief excerpt from an important teaching called the 21 Nails which points this out.

It is actually a critically important point in dzogchen practice.

 

Self-originated primordial wisdom is the base.

The five poisonous mental afflictions are the dynamic energy.

Chasing after them is the way you are deluded.

Viewing them as deficient is the error.

Leaving them as they are is the method.

Freeing them into vastness is the path.

Non-duality is the realization.

Edited March 11, 2020 by steve

[Vajra Fist]

Didn't he get enlightened after spending a couple of years at a Thai forest theravadan monastery? I think a lot of what he's described as his method is more like the result of practice.

[gatito]

From what Dawg wrote, he was certainly not Enlightened. That's blatantly obvious to anyone who actually is Enlightened.

 

Just out of curiosity, if anyone here imagines that they're Enlightened, you could PM me with Dawg's tell, which would jump out like a ton of bricks dropping next to you if you are actually Enlightened.

 

I'll post the (anonymised) results, if any...

 

Edited March 12, 2020 by gatito

[manitou]

On 3/11/2020 at 7:57 AM, thelerner said:

Step (2)… Getting rid of “anger” (dislike) and “greed” (like)… anger and greed are the two sides of the same coin… understanding that when someone makes you angry or greedy, that they are not only controlling you, but they are also stealing your energy…and then learning how to remain indifferent, so that you no longer respond with anger or greed…

You will not be punished for your anger; you will be punished by your anger… (Buddha)
 

 

 

How to get rid of anger?  Stop with the expectations.

 

How to get rid of greed?  Realize that money is nothing more than stuck energy.

[Limahong]

13 minutes ago, manitou said:

How to get rid of anger?

 

 

Be an angel...  

                                       

 

 

Hi Barbara,

 

How have you been?

 

- Anand

 

[forestofclarity]

This is an interesting statement, and points to a fissure in meditation systems. While I agree with the caveat "at least not on the tantric and dzogchen paths," there are some Buddhist paths in which it is taught. 

 

The elimination of thought paradigm does have some basis in Theravada teachings, and also in Samkhya. If you look at some classic Theravada Abhidhamma based teachings, you will find references to eliminating thoughts as thoughts are karmic arisings triggered by craving/aversion/ignorance. In the modern day, Gary Weber has made a big deal about achieving a literal no-thought state. One of the earliest Buddhist blogs I found described a Thai technique in which monks basically tried to reach a thought free state, then attempt to extend it. In Theravada contexts, I have heard it taught both ways. Of course, there is another debate in the Theravada context as to what level of concentration is necessary to reach enlightenment (i.e. the Visudhamagga jhanas vs. Sutta jhanas). 

 

One thing that struck me about the Theravada/Samkhya type of meditation is that they are typically practiced by renunciants practicing very intense forms of formless samadhi. Most of that, in my personal opinion, is as applicable to the modern lay person. I think for most lay people, the more open, relaxed paths are the way to go. 

 

20 hours ago, steve said:

What is posted above is misleading and, I suspect, conjecture or simply misguided.

The objective of meditation is not permanently silencing the inner voice, at least not on the tantric and dzogchen paths.

We certainly do need to first notice the voice consistently, then work towards reducing the noise so that we can connect more with the underlying silence, the stillness, the openness, which are characteristics of the nature of our mind rather than only its content, which is our usual life experience.

 

[manitou]

22 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

This is an interesting statement, and points to a fissure in meditation systems. While I agree with the caveat "at least not on the tantric and dzogchen paths," there are some Buddhist paths in which it is taught. 

 

The elimination of thought paradigm does have some basis in Theravada teachings, and also in Samkhya. If you look at some classic Theravada Abhidhamma based teachings, you will find references to eliminating thoughts as thoughts are karmic arisings triggered by craving/aversion/ignorance. In the modern day, Gary Weber has made a big deal about achieving a literal no-thought state. One of the earliest Buddhist blogs I found described a Thai technique in which monks basically tried to reach a thought free state, then attempt to extend it. In Theravada contexts, I have heard it taught both ways. Of course, there is another debate in the Theravada context as to what level of concentration is necessary to reach enlightenment (i.e. the Visudhamagga jhanas vs. Sutta jhanas). 

 

One thing that struck me about the Theravada/Samkhya type of meditation is that they are typically practiced by renunciants practicing very intense forms of formless samadhi. Most of that, in my personal opinion, is as applicable to the modern lay person. I think for most lay people, the more open, relaxed paths are the way to go. 

 

 

 

 

I must have read a Theravada teaching when I wanted to learn to meditate.  I have a remote memory of it being a Buddhist method.  The focus was definitely to learn to cease thought.  It started with using a feather to eliminate thought as it came through.  I've always done this meditation.  30 years later,  I have no-thought much of the time, or at my disposal.  My thoughts, on the whole, are now at an elevated level of consciousness.

 

But something is happening on the other end too.  I am developing a serious  case of dementia and memory loss.  My mom, 95, is in an Alzheimer's home.  My ability to remember things from one day to the next is gone.  Everything must be committed to a list of some sort.  I don't feel that I'm a real good driver.

 

But this is where an intersection occurs.  The corner of 'Be Here Now' and 'No Memory'.  It's actually manageable!  Watching my mother progress into dementia, then Alzheimers - I remember how she was disabled by confusion.  She was no longer able to manage the linear aspect  to life.   Before, after, tomorrow, yesterday - that part of life becomes unmanageable.  And this is now my challenge at this point in my life.  I haven't lost the ability to reason, which is how I can still post on here.  But what I can't guarantee is that I won't post this thought again in a couple pages....

 

Developing the ability to dwell in the Consciousness relieves much of the anxiety of the linear requirements in our life.  It's a bit like walking a tightrope;  the balance must be just right and the road can be navigated in the I Am.  With an understanding that past, present, and future are all here Now, one can imagine that the future has already happened and we're just playing catch-up.....that it's actually already happened and therefore there's nothing to fear.  It's all Now. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2020 by manitou

[doc benway]

54 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

This is an interesting statement, and points to a fissure in meditation systems. While I agree with the caveat "at least not on the tantric and dzogchen paths," there are some Buddhist paths in which it is taught. 

 

The elimination of thought paradigm does have some basis in Theravada teachings, and also in Samkhya. If you look at some classic Theravada Abhidhamma based teachings, you will find references to eliminating thoughts as thoughts are karmic arisings triggered by craving/aversion/ignorance. In the modern day, Gary Weber has made a big deal about achieving a literal no-thought state. One of the earliest Buddhist blogs I found described a Thai technique in which monks basically tried to reach a thought free state, then attempt to extend it. In Theravada contexts, I have heard it taught both ways. Of course, there is another debate in the Theravada context as to what level of concentration is necessary to reach enlightenment (i.e. the Visudhamagga jhanas vs. Sutta jhanas). 

 

One thing that struck me about the Theravada/Samkhya type of meditation is that they are typically practiced by renunciants practicing very intense forms of formless samadhi. Most of that, in my personal opinion, is as applicable to the modern lay person. I think for most lay people, the more open, relaxed paths are the way to go. 

 

 

 

All good points.

I agree that meditation does point us to that thought free experience and then tries to extend it. And the dzogchen path is a unique approach relative to taking our samsaric experience as the path itself. My main contention was the idea that we can or should  “permanently” silence the inner voice. I think that is a myth but, of course, I may be wrong.

 

I’ve met with some very advanced masters, none of whom would say that they are totally and permanently thought free and emotion free. That said, their relationship to that inner voice is very different than ours. Thoughts come, thoughts go, emotions come and go, and leave no trace, no karma. One Bönpo master once admonished his students, “I even go to the toilet different than you!”

[manitou]

And I don't know if my meditative method somehow contributed to my lack of memory now.  

 

(Don't say the obvious, Steve....)

[doc benway]

5 minutes ago, manitou said:

And I don't know if my meditative method somehow contributed to my lack of memory now.  

 

(Don't say the obvious, Steve....)

 

My dad also has dementia.
When mine develops, my plan is to forget to stop meditating!

🧘🏻‍♂️

[manitou]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

My dad also has dementia.
When mine develops, my plan is to forget to stop meditating!

🧘🏻‍♂️

 

 

You have no idea how close that is to my everyday reality anymore  

[thelerner]

4 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

This is an interesting statement, and points to a fissure in meditation systems. While I agree with the caveat "at least not on the tantric and dzogchen paths," there are some Buddhist paths in which it is taught. 

 

The elimination of thought paradigm does have some basis in Theravada teachings, and also in Samkhya. If you look at some classic Theravada Abhidhamma based teachings, you will find references to eliminating thoughts as thoughts are karmic arisings triggered by craving/aversion/ignorance...

 

One thing that struck me about the Theravada/Samkhya type of meditation is that they are typically practiced by renunciants practicing very intense forms of formless samadhi. Most of that, in my personal opinion, is as applicable to the modern lay person. I think for most lay people, the more open, relaxed paths are the way to go. 

 

I was thinking along similar lines but with the teachings of Eckhardt Tolle and Barry Long, ie thought as enemy.  In my opinion thats going too far, the aim should be the quiet mind and that conscious thinking is a good tool, bad master. 

 

My reading in modern behavioral psychology points to the problems of fighting thought with thought.  Aiming for one thought (or nonthought) can trigger the exact opposite.  The don't think of purple elephant paradox.  

 

The behaivoral stuff tries to train people to see the thought and realize its just a thought.  One of the exercises is say to yourself 'I will not walk across the room' then walk across the room.  Do that with things through the day, til you realize the inner thought 'don't mean nothing', you are free to follow or ignore them.

 

That's not too different, imo, then the spacious mind that Steve points to in Dzogen. 

Edited March 13, 2020 by thelerner

[doc benway]

23 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

You have no idea how close that is to my everyday reality anymore  

So sorry you’re going through this!

Sending you my love and support.

[C T]

10 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

This is an interesting statement, and points to a fissure in meditation systems. While I agree with the caveat "at least not on the tantric and dzogchen paths," there are some Buddhist paths in which it is taught. 

 

The elimination of thought paradigm does have some basis in Theravada teachings, and also in Samkhya. If you look at some classic Theravada Abhidhamma based teachings, you will find references to eliminating thoughts as thoughts are karmic arisings triggered by craving/aversion/ignorance. In the modern day, Gary Weber has made a big deal about achieving a literal no-thought state. One of the earliest Buddhist blogs I found described a Thai technique in which monks basically tried to reach a thought free state, then attempt to extend it. In Theravada contexts, I have heard it taught both ways. Of course, there is another debate in the Theravada context as to what level of concentration is necessary to reach enlightenment (i.e. the Visudhamagga jhanas vs. Sutta jhanas). 

 

One thing that struck me about the Theravada/Samkhya type of meditation is that they are typically practiced by renunciants practicing very intense forms of formless samadhi. Most of that, in my personal opinion, is as applicable to the modern lay person. I think for most lay people, the more open, relaxed paths are the way to go. 

 

 

 

I don't know who Gary Weber is, but nowhere in the sutras (and tantras) did Gautama emphasise thought-free meditation. The oldest technique for meditative absorption (which is not meditation itself) is Vipassana, first referenced as Foundations of Mindfulness (Satipatthana), the very first set of meditation practices taught by him to the immediate sangha. 

 

Bhante Henepola Gunaratana sums up Vipassana neatly by alluding the initial steps of Vipassana Bhavana to foundational mind training (not no-mind training, as in Zen, but a widely misunderstood term nonetheless), which is basically Ngondro in the Dzogchen context.

He said,

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"Vipassana is a direct and gradual cultivation of mindfulness or awareness. It proceeds piece by piece over a period of years. The student’s attention is carefully directed to an intense examination of certain aspects of his own existence. The meditator is trained to notice more and more of his own flowing life experience.

 

Vipassana is a gentle technique. But it also is very, very thorough. It is an ancient and codified system of training your mind, a set of exercises dedicated to becoming more and more aware of your own life experience. It is attentive listening, mindful seeing and careful testing.

 

We learn to smell acutely, to touch fully, and to really pay attention to the changes taking place in all these experiences. We learn to listen to our own thoughts without being caught up in them. The object of Vipassana meditation practice is to learn to see the truth of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and selflessness of phenomena.

 

We think we are doing this already, but that is an illusion. It comes from the fact that we are paying so little attention to the ongoing surge of our own life experience that we might just as well be asleep. We are simply not paying enough attention to notice that we are not paying attention. It is another Catch-22."

 

 

 

There are bits of reference to thoughtlessness in some Zen/Chan commentaries (none in Theravadin as far as Im aware), but these point to freedom from discursive thoughts, and not its literal meaning. When Huineng, the 6th Zen patriach attained satori (or Wunien in Chinese), he penned the famous lines, "Since all is void, where can dust alight?" Wunien was later incorporated as the central tenet of Chan.

In a Lion's Roar article by Wing Shing Chan, he explains Wunien thusly,

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"Is wunien, then, equivalent to a state of mind where all thoughts cease? If this is the goal of practice, then what is the difference between an enlightened master and a rock, which also entertains no thoughts? Simply stated, are there thoughts or no thoughts after enlightenment?

 

Wunien is reflected in the approach Chan practitioners take in even basic meditation methods, such as counting the breath. The meditator hopes that with continued practice discursive thoughts will subside and therefore regards a state of less discursive thought—or more thoughtlessness—as signifying improvement in meditation practice." 

 

 

As far as the teachings in the Platform Sutra goes, thoughtlessness refers to the cessation of discursive thoughts, and also, where the mind no longer 'leaks'. Leakages are attributed to an untamed mind, and are said to be fetters that hinders the cultivation of concentrative absorption, eventually to equipoise, or in the words of Huineng himself, "An idealessness mind".

 

The Sixth Patriach further stated, "Learned Audience, in this system of mine one prajna produces eighty-four thousand ways of wisdom, since there are that number of defilements for us to cope with; but when one is free from defilements, wisdom reveals itself, and will not be separated from the essence of mind. Those who understand this dharma will be free from idle thought. To be free from being infatuated by one particular thought, from clinging to desire, and from falsehood; to put one’s own essence of tathata into operation; to use prajna for contemplation, and to take an attitude of neither indifference nor attachment towards all things – this is what is meant by realizing one’s own essence of mind for the attainment of buddhahood."

Edited March 13, 2020 by C T

[C T]

Theravadin master Sayadaw U Tejaniya:

 

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But thinking is just nature. Can we stop nature or avoid nature? It’s impossible. Instead we merely need to see that thinking is nature. That is right view. With this view we can start to skillfully live with thinking instead of resisting the nature that is thinking.

 

You need to be able to recognize when the mind is think­ing, but not get entangled in what is being thought. There is no need to get caught in the story your thoughts are telling. There is no need to automatically believe that the story running in the mind is true.

 

If you frequently give yourself the opportunity to acknowl­edge the thinking mind, you will get to the point where you begin to see that this is mind. Then you can know it and not get lost in thought. There is a difference between being lost in thought, and being aware of thinking while thinking.

 

We begin to recognize that we can objectively know “this is mind.” We realize “this is mind, mind is thinking.” Once we learn how to see the mind objectively in this way, then we don’t get lost in thought.

 

When the mind is thinking continuously and we become aware of it, it’s not enough to just know the mind is thinking. We can notice the intention to think. The mind wants to think. We want to become able to see this desire clearly. Sometimes when we ask ourselves, “Why is my mind thinking so much?” we are able to detect the desire to think.

 

 

[thelerner]

In Dawg's description there is no energy work.  No mention of sitting or breathing or meditation.  No esoteric practices though he may mention them in other writings.

so

Let me throw this out- What part does meditation(moving & seated) and energy work play in your ideal of awakening? 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2020 by thelerner