Dawg's Awakening

[silent thunder]

All formal praxis have shifted to medicinal, where they were once dietary.

 

Some have transitioned from active to passive (eg meditation has come off the mat and ceases to be a sought happening or separate event). 

[manitou]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

All formal praxis have shifted to medicinal, where they were once dietary.

 

Some have transitioned from active to passive (eg meditation has come off the mat and ceases to be a sought happening or separate event). 

 

 

That's so well put.  Meditation ceases to be a separate event.  The description of 'spacious mind' is exactly what it feels like to me.

[Vajra Fist]

11 hours ago, thelerner said:

In Dawg's description there is no energy work.  No mention of sitting or breathing or meditation.  No esoteric practices though he may mention them in other writings.

so

Let me throw this out- What part does meditation(moving & seated) and energy work play in your ideal of awakening? 

 

 

I can't find the exact quote in the original thread but I think he said something along the lines that cultivation through qigong is the path of energy, and it is a separate path with little or no crossover to the one he followed. That was fascinating for me. 

 

 

[forestofclarity]

The discussion on the presence/absence of thought occurs in the jhana sections, not the vipassana sections. The second jhana arises when the factors of applied thought and sustained thought drop off. One of the arguments in the Theravada community is how deep the jhana state needs to be. Teachers who support the Visudhamagga interpretation would certainly disagree with you, as according to them attaining jhana typically means the obliteration of any sense of body and mental talk. There are also people in the Tibetan tradition that follow the same trajectory (i.e. B. Allan Wallace). 

 

I learned a lot about this at Bhavana Society actually, and Bhante G was my preceptor into Buddhism. It has been some time, but by applying their teachings, many of us at their retreats were able to slow the mental process down to the point where you could watch a single thought arise and pass away. 

 

Of course, the issue as I stated is taking such things into daily life. I doubt it is possible to attain deep states of concentration outside of a retreat, which is why I tend to prefer the more open approach. 

 

 

On 3/13/2020 at 1:25 AM, C T said:

 

I don't know who Gary Weber is, but nowhere in the sutras (and tantras) did Gautama emphasise thought-free meditation. The oldest technique for meditative absorption (which is not meditation itself) is Vipassana, first referenced as Foundations of Mindfulness (Satipatthana), the very first set of meditation practices taught by him to the immediate sangha. 

 

Bhante Henepola Gunaratana sums up Vipassana neatly by alluding the initial steps of Vipassana Bhavana to foundational mind training (not no-mind training, as in Zen, but a widely misunderstood term nonetheless), which is basically Ngondro in the Dzogchen context.

 

 

[forestofclarity]

Of course, the common shadow side of that equation is people tend to prematurely quit formal practice too quickly. According to some teachers, sitting or meditating is itself an expression of enlightenment. 

 

On 3/15/2020 at 6:13 PM, silent thunder said:

All formal praxis have shifted to medicinal, where they were once dietary.

 

Some have transitioned from active to passive (eg meditation has come off the mat and ceases to be a sought happening or separate event). 

 

[Heartbreak]

Everything is mindfulness or non-mindfulness.

 

If you do energy work with mindfulness isn’t it meditation by itself?

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, Heartbreak said:

Everything is mindfulness or non-mindfulness.

 

If you do energy work with mindfulness isn’t it meditation by itself?

 

In your case, you're just doing things mindlessly. 

[Heartbreak]

28 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

In your case, you're just doing things mindlessly. 

Non-Educated Guess again?

[C T]

3 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

The discussion on the presence/absence of thought occurs in the jhana sections, not the vipassana sections. The second jhana arises when the factors of applied thought and sustained thought drop off. One of the arguments in the Theravada community is how deep the jhana state needs to be. Teachers who support the Visudhamagga interpretation would certainly disagree with you, as according to them attaining jhana typically means the obliteration of any sense of body and mental talk. There are also people in the Tibetan tradition that follow the same trajectory (i.e. B. Allan Wallace). 

 

I learned a lot about this at Bhavana Society actually, and Bhante G was my preceptor into Buddhism. It has been some time, but by applying their teachings, many of us at their retreats were able to slow the mental process down to the point where you could watch a single thought arise and pass away. 

 

Of course, the issue as I stated is taking such things into daily life. I doubt it is possible to attain deep states of concentration outside of a retreat, which is why I tend to prefer the more open approach. 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I'm quite familiar with the jhanas, and the basis for their arisings. In my view, the stilling of thoughts (as propounded in the steps leading to the onset of the 2nd jhana) does not equate to any sort of ultimate goal of thoughtlessness - imo this is a misunderstanding. Rather, I believe it refers to the 'blowing out' of discursive thoughts (leakages as mentioned in my post above) that hamper concentrative insight, whereby diligence in acquiring this concentrative insight (aka discernment) is born out of a solid foundation in vipassana. So there are reasons to support the believe in a strong correlation between vipassana bhavana and jhana cultivation. 

 

 

Quote

 

"I declare a person endowed with four qualities to be one of great discernment, a great man. Which four?

"There is the case, brahman, where he practices for the welfare & happiness of many people and has established many people in the noble method, i.e., the rightness of what is admirable, the rightness of what is skillful.

"He thinks any thought he wants to think, and doesn't think any thought he doesn't want to think. He wills any resolve he wants to will, and doesn't will any resolve he doesn't want to will. He has attained mastery of the mind with regard to the pathways of thought.

"He attains — whenever he wants, without strain, without difficulty — the four jhanas that are heightened mental states, pleasant abidings in the here-&-now.

"With the ending of mental fermentations — he remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having directly known & realized them for himself right in the here-&-now.

"...I declare a person endowed with these four qualities to be one of great discernment, a great man."

— AN 4.35

Jhana and insight, hand-in-hand

There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding.

— Dhp 372

 

 

 

"Jhana is a meditative state of profound stillness and concentration in which the mind becomes fully immersed and absorbed in the chosen object of attention. It is the cornerstone in the development of Right Concentration."  -- Access To Insight

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GSmaster]

To get rid of something means it does not exist anymore.

 

Imagine that greed or anger does not exist anymore in your life, what will your life be? Will you be still a human being? Emotions are interconnected. 

 

Pretending or imagining or avoiding greed / anger showing off, does not mean you have rid of it. You could easily hide something for whole life and pretend to be a saint. It is a charade and mask your wearing but not your true self. Many people feel they are already enlightened just closing their eyes deeply on own imperfection.

 

Same story about monks having no lust / desire for woman, when they have never experienced woman or rather never developed their sexual energy.. 

 

Avoiding something =/= getting rid of it.

 

To be honest I find it pointless wanking discussions on those topics as difficulty of this work is beyond comprehension and I have yet to see anyone who did it. And most people I communicate with are practitioners with decades of experience.

[Earl Grey]

18 minutes ago, Heartbreak said:

Non-Educated Guess again?

 

 

So why do you keep making those uneducated guesses then? 

 

[manitou]

On 3/16/2020 at 10:29 PM, C T said:

 

 

"He thinks any thought he wants to think, and doesn't think any thought he doesn't want to think. 

 

 

 

 

I think this is it exactly.  The master Jesus would tell people to cast their eyes higher in the hills.  The thoughts definitely get higher and higher by themselves, once the awareness of our thought level is achieved.  With practice, a person can stop a thought from coming, if one chooses not to dwell in the mire.

 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by manitou