Pandemic Panic - Transcending the Fear

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

I thought that you might get hurt on a thorn.  That's why your cocaine is dipped in lettuce.

 

 

So ... sort of compress the cocaine into a  .....   chip  or   a cracker shape , blend a head of lettuce into a green slush ... and dip away ?

 

Ummmmm   .....

[silent thunder]

57 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

I had been trying to help a young naive  homeless couple; they where camping (he is a travelling musician with all his gigs cancelled )  and looking for work so I  gave them some at my place and they where camped up the back yard - which i told them would not be suitable ... but they liked it  < shrug >  but then torrential rain came  and flooded their camp and they had to move on .  No income - running out of food, so I slipped them an extra couple of hundred  ... he was overjoyed and went to the car and came back ;

 

" Thanks so much , I only have 6  I have been saving but  .... "  and handed me 2 high grade surgical filter masks .

 

YESSSS !   -  score !      

love. you. so. much. Brother!  High skill!  Tribute to your teachers... all of em.

 

Hotels here, are offering to let health workers on front lines stay free, so they don't risk infecting their families, or so they can cut down on commute times and get more rest.

 

So many more examples of people behaving admirably, but you mate... you are rockin' it.

 

*deep bow of respect*

 

edit:

lemme try again

 

love what you did for those people

that's high skill and big heart

well done and thanks mate! 

Edited March 26, 2020 by silent thunder

[Nungali]

Huh ?    

[manitou]

6 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Huh ?    

 

 

It's a heck of a nice thing you did, helping that couple.  We sometimes hear stories like that on this site, - but out there??  Really unusual.  Good on you.

[Nungali]

Okay then , we all live in different worlds I suppose . 

 

I have spent over 30 years here helping people  either visiting, setting up camp, staying longer  or even settling here ;   from negotiating the local community mammalian politics through to sticking poles in holes and bolting the wood together , helping with kids , etc .

 

It often gets spat back in my face ..... meh , learnt to live with that .    What I find  more frustrating is this scenario ;

 

"  I got set up here  (and them being present can see what a great place it is )   with virtually nothing . my community share which gives me the right to have a house site to build and live on cost $10 ... I bought the previously personally owned  cabin and infrastructure on  a site for $8000 . I have lived here in paradise 'living the dream' for over 30 years .  I dont see why YOU should not have that experience to   if you ant to have it .   Here is how you need to negotiate through things to get that . "

 

But 95% of people do not want to listen ... they want to do it their own way .... and it fails .  

 

I have noticed 2 divisions in peoples make up in this area ;

 

1. those that need the long path (that often leads to failure )  of 'learning by their own mistakes'  (and often never getting the thing they wanted because all their time is used up repeating various failures ) .

 

2.  Those that often learn from observation of others mistakes and methods  (including what might have gone wrong with others methods and adapting them and changing )  and saving a HEAP of their own time and , sometimes, irreversible 'damage' .

[Michael Sternbach]

When I shared the following video with a friend living in New Zealand (where lockdown has just been put into effect), she was both surprised and outraged. She called the Dutch government's decision to relax restrictions now stupid and said it would without a doubt lead to "another Italy".

 

While I surely felt sympathetic towards her, I told her that - all things considered - I did not consider the idea stupid. And actually, already on its way to Germany, the virus seems to have lost much of its fatality for some not fully understood reason.

 

 

Fact is, continuing isolation of potential carriers and receivers of the virus is not only going to have socially and psycologically devastating effects, it will also be simply unsustainable. Far better to allow people to have controlled exposure to SARS-CoV-2, so gradually immunity can be built up on the large scale.

 

Granted, it may not be a perfect solution. But let's face it, the milk has been spilt and there may be no easy way out of this mess. But cooperating with nature's course of action rather than resisting and opposing it - that indeed means choosing the proverbial water course way which the Daoist sages have been recommending since time immemorial.

 

No doubt, it is a bold course of action that the Dutch have opted for. Hopefully other nations will be watching their brave 'experiment' and learn what they can from it.

 

May the Force be with them and with all of us.

Edited March 28, 2020 by Michael Sternbach

[C T]

 

Michael, 

 

Do you happen to have a link regarding this new step undertaken by the Dutch gov? Cheers. 

 

Tried googling "Holland relaxes covid 19 restrictions" and the first result that popped up was "Netherlands closes sex shops, cannabis cafes". So there appears to be no official announcement regarding this claim. In fact, there does not seem to be any updates from Holland since the 17th. Which is quite odd. 

 

No mention of it here either https://nltimes.nl/

 

 

[manitou]

Michael - really interesting video.    It will really be interesting, if there is a second wave, to see if Holland comes out better because of this more relaxed (and accepting) attitude.  It makes sense to me, not to be so overly cautious - and let nature run its course.   Also, don't touch your face.

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, C T said:

 

Michael, 

 

Do you happen to have a link regarding this new step undertaken by the Dutch gov? Cheers. 

 

Tried googling "Holland relaxes covid 19 restrictions" and the first result that popped up was "Netherlands closes sex shops, cannabis cafes". So there appears to be no official announcement regarding this claim. In fact, there does not seem to be any updates from Holland since the 17th. Which is quite odd. 

 

No mention of it here either https://nltimes.nl/

 

 

 

No mention of it here either in Oz ... but it IS the plan , and its the plan in many places , its just that it is enacted different .

 

The only way to get over it ( for the general population) is ; herd immunity  by natural means  or inoculation . Here , with a LOW number of hospital beds and equipment  we need a high rate of social isolation to flatten the curve early to keep numbers down while we try to tool up . The idea is to match the curve to resources .  Isolation will never fix the problem , just slow down its onset .

 

Thats general .  Its different for individuals of course ; due to my specific situation  (  ie .   basically a hermit , a high level of isolation anyway ) I have missed the last 3 years of catching any type of bug that was going around ,  so never developed any immunity to  any of them and never  caught any of them .    3  years ago (and the 3 prior to that ) when I had a GF with 3 young kids (and at least 1 then all 3 in school )  I was getting some new bug every few months ! 

 

Since then, when a bug goes around, I isolate myself  from it , and  people .  

Edited March 28, 2020 by Nungali

[Michael Sternbach]

On 28.3.2020 at 8:26 AM, C T said:

 

Michael, 

 

Do you happen to have a link regarding this new step undertaken by the Dutch gov? Cheers. 

 

Tried googling "Holland relaxes covid 19 restrictions" and the first result that popped up was "Netherlands closes sex shops, cannabis cafes". So there appears to be no official announcement regarding this claim. In fact, there does not seem to be any updates from Holland since the 17th. Which is quite odd. 

 

No mention of it here either https://nltimes.nl/

 

 

 

I have no further information on this right now. Hoping to get an update sometime.

[Michael Sternbach]

I have always been a strong believer in the healing power of humour. In fact, laughing will boost your immune system, as has been demonstrated by serious scientists.

 

So it is important not to let this virus bug bog us down. Along these lines, Master Ken talks about the upside of covid-19 from a matial arts perspective in the following video.

 

Hope you enjoy. 

 

 

[manitou]

OMG.  He is adorable.  So many groins, so little time...  And I loved the tupperware hints.

[Michael Sternbach]

In a previous post, I already presented evidence of Holland now relaxing previously imposed restrictions.

 

However, the one European country currently taking the most liberal stand on this issue is Sweden.

 

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/24/sweden-coronavirus-open-for-business/

 

The course the Swedish set themselves on remains highly controversial in the population, to be sure. Personally, I am in favour of their official (IMO) level-headed approach.

 

Faith in personal reason and responsibility rather than imposing far-reaching draconian measures based on fear and (unproven) negative expectations - that's a rather sophisticated attitude they are adopting, in my book.

 

Best wishes to them and all of us! 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Michael Sternbach

[manitou]

Thanks for the link to the article.  It started out real interesting.  Do you have $15.99 so I can finish reading it?   

[Michael Sternbach]

21 minutes ago, manitou said:

Thanks for the link to the article.  It started out real interesting.  Do you have $15.99 so I can finish reading it?   

 

 

Free for me, for some reason. Perhaps try using a vpn?

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, manitou said:

OMG.  He is adorable.  So many groins, so little time...  And I loved the tupperware hints.

 

Groins are his thing .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Nungali

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

In a previous post, I already presented evidence of Holland now relaxing previously imposed restrictions.

 

However, the one European country currently taking the most liberal stand on this issue is Sweden.

 

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/24/sweden-coronavirus-open-for-business/

 

The course the Swedish set themselves on remains highly controversial in the population, to be sure. Personally, I am in favour of their official (IMO) level-headed approach.

 

Faith in personal reason and responsibility rather than imposing far-reaching draconian measures based on fear and (unproven) negative expectations - that's a rather sophisticated attitude they are adopting, in my book.

 

Best wishes to them and all of us! 

 

Sweden is  next to Australia in today's numbers  ; S -  3,700   ...  A  -  4,163 , yet we are doing the opposite .

 

We got the Army patrolling  to 'help people understand ' .

 

 

Dont  leave home unless its essential !   But what is 'essential'   ? Well, last night our PM gave us an example ; " My wife went shopping and bought a HEAP of jigsaw puzzles yesterday . If  her and the kids have to saty home for 6 months , they will be  essential . "

Also problems like domestic violence rise are trying to be countered ,  authorities acknowledge there may be some 'side effects' .

 

But preliminary stats show this approach MIGHT BE flattening the rate of new infections, they have not increased in two days   .  Deaths rose yesterday, but that is a time lag effect, I think .  However , I expect to see surges and lags in any trends and stats .

 

I went to town today, it seemed like a normal quiet day , then I came out of the supermarket and the street was near empty .   Some places have put up  good sanitising facilities outside , others haven't bothered, about 1/3 of places closed .

 

I heard a quick news reference that Woolworths isnt going to allow shopping  anymore  but just pick ups of pre packed 'staples'  ???

 

The local shop is still a good secret . I got heaps of good stuff there . AND they supply washing facilities out front , disposable gloves and clear distance markers .  Now they are doing home delivers soon .  They might even need to employ some drivers with vehicles .

 

One further method is regional shutdowns . Bring it on, I say  . Besides, IF you are supposed to stay home except for essential needs then you should not be inter regionally travelling anyway . If you have an essential reason then you are allowed through .

 

Our 'far spreadedness '   here may be to our advantage ; there is only really 2 large regional centres south of here to Sydney , in 600 kms.   

 

Us Aussies gotta stick apart . 

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Nungali

[Michael Sternbach]

43 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Sweden is  next to Australia in today's numbers  ; S -  3,700   ...  A  -  4,163 , yet we are doing the opposite .

 

We got the Army patrolling  to 'help people understand ' .

 

 

Almost funny... Nobody talks about the war against terror anymore, now the war against the virus is on! And against any bugger who would be careless enough to lend it a hand, it seems.

 

It could be worthwhile to explore how our current bogeyman mirrors our 'shadow' in the Jungian sense.

 

BTW, that's a whole bunch of potential virus carriers gathering in one spot there! 

 

43 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Dont  leave home unless its essential !   But what is 'essential'   ? Well, last night our PM gave us an example ; " My wife went shopping and bought a HEAP of jigsaw puzzles yesterday . If  her and the kids have to saty home for 6 months , they will be  essential . "

Also problems like domestic violence rise are trying to be countered ,  authorities acknowledge there may be some 'side effects' .

 

But preliminary stats show this approach MIGHT BE flattening the rate of new infections, they have not increased in two days   .  Deaths rose yesterday, but that is a time lag effect, I think .  However , I expect to see surges and lags in any trends and stats .

 

I went to town today, it seemed like a normal quiet day , then I came out of the supermarket and the street was near empty .   Some places have put up  good sanitising facilities outside , others haven't bothered, about 1/3 of places closed .

 

I heard a quick news reference that Woolworths isnt going to allow shopping  anymore  but just pick ups of pre packed 'staples'  ???

 

The local shop is still a good secret . I got heaps of good stuff there . AND they supply washing facilities out front , disposable gloves and clear distance markers .  Now they are doing home delivers soon .  They might even need to employ some drivers with vehicles .

 

One further method is regional shutdowns . Bring it on, I say  . Besides, IF you are supposed to stay home except for essential needs then you should not be inter regionally travelling anyway . If you have an essential reason then you are allowed through .

 

Our 'far spreadedness '   here may be to our advantage ; there is only really 2 large regional centres south of here to Sydney , in 600 kms.   

 

Us Aussies gotta stick apart . 

 

 

 

 

Good luck, Nungers!

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Sweden is  next to Australia in today's numbers  ; S -  3,700   ...  A  -  4,163 , yet we are doing the opposite .

 

We got the Army patrolling  to 'help people understand ' .

 

 

Dont  leave home unless its essential !   But what is 'essential'   ? Well, last night our PM gave us an example ; " My wife went shopping and bought a HEAP of jigsaw puzzles yesterday . If  her and the kids have to saty home for 6 months , they will be  essential . "

Also problems like domestic violence rise are trying to be countered ,  authorities acknowledge there may be some 'side effects' .

 

But preliminary stats show this approach MIGHT BE flattening the rate of new infections, they have not increased in two days   .  Deaths rose yesterday, but that is a time lag effect, I think .  However , I expect to see surges and lags in any trends and stats .

 

I went to town today, it seemed like a normal quiet day , then I came out of the supermarket and the street was near empty .   Some places have put up  good sanitising facilities outside , others haven't bothered, about 1/3 of places closed .

 

I heard a quick news reference that Woolworths isnt going to allow shopping  anymore  but just pick ups of pre packed 'staples'  ???

 

The local shop is still a good secret . I got heaps of good stuff there . AND they supply washing facilities out front , disposable gloves and clear distance markers .  Now they are doing home delivers soon .  They might even need to employ some drivers with vehicles .

 

One further method is regional shutdowns . Bring it on, I say  . Besides, IF you are supposed to stay home except for essential needs then you should not be inter regionally travelling anyway . If you have an essential reason then you are allowed through .

 

Our 'far spreadedness '   here may be to our advantage ; there is only really 2 large regional centres south of here to Sydney , in 600 kms.   

 

Us Aussies gotta stick apart . 

 

 

 

There is a benefit to how Australia is dealing with it when you compare the death rate - Australian 18 vs Sweden which is at 110 as of today. 
 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Bindi

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

There is a benefit to how Australia is dealing with it when you compare the death rate - Australian 18 vs Sweden which is at 110 as of today. 
 

 

 

 

You don't know if this difference is due to their different approaches or other factors, however.

 

Moreover, it remains to be seen how things will develop over an extended period of time.

[Michael Sternbach]

I share the following without any claims as to the accuracy of any of the information presented.

 

12 Experts Questioning the Coronavirus Panic

 

As always, decide for yourself what you wish to believe.

 

And better choose wisely... After you have looked at ALL available information, not just what the mainstream media and the official 'authorities' tell you.

Edited March 30, 2020 by Michael Sternbach

[senseless virtue]

1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said:

I share the following without any claims as to the accuracy of any of the information presented.

 

12 Experts Questioning the Coronavirus Panic

 

As always, decide for yourself what you wish to believe.

 

And better choose wisely... After you have looked at ALL available information, not just what the mainstream media and the official 'authorities' tell you.

 

Thanks for the food for thought!

 

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17/a-fiasco-in-the-making-as-the-coronavirus-pandemic-takes-hold-we-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/#comments

 

This is one of the expert articles quoted. As you can see in the comments section, the following criticism pops up underlining why downplaying of the coronovirus threat certainly misses the point (my emphasis):

 

Quote

The contagion factor is excluded from the authors analysis, which makes his theory just as incomplete as the missing data he complains about.

 

The contagion factor of this virus is far greater than influenza- so if you don’t take measures to slow the spread you get a higher death rate because you can’t treat all the sick at once. Italy versus China is an actual example of what happens- they are already surpassing China’s death rate even though their population pales in comparison (60 million versus 1.35 billion)

 

Quote

This author fails to take that into consideration, as well as the contagion factor. Th fact that COVID19’s viral shed factor is 1,000 times greater than influenza, and it’s peak shed is during incubation when many times there are no symptoms (as opposed to influenza, which peaks after it settles into the lungs).

 

Quote

Interesting read. One aspect missing is the contagious rate – if statistics are missing the real spread of corona, then the reported rate of contagion (which is already more than twice that of influenza) is indeed even higher. that alone is a sufficient solid reason for social distancing and an analysis missing that element fails to comprehensively address the crisis we´re facing.

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by virtue
wrong link

[gatito]

12 hours ago, manitou said:

Thanks for the link to the article.  It started out real interesting.  Do you have $15.99 so I can finish reading it?   

 

Quote

STOCKHOLM—Almost all countries in the West dealing with the coronavirus pandemic have by now arrived at the same lockdown strategy, with some local variations. Only one major exception stands out. Sweden, while facing an undisputed high-risk outbreak of the virus, has committed to going its own way in combating it.

 

The Swedish government appears to be betting that its national culture is distinctive enough to pull off public health policies other countries can’t. Whether it will regret doing so remains to be seen.

Stockholm’s coronavirus efforts stand out as markedly measured—or, as some would have it, dangerously tame. Two weeks after the country’s Public Health Agency (on March 10) raised the risk level of a community spread of the virus to “very high”—the highest grade on a five-point scale—primary schools remain open, borders are only partially closed, there are no compulsory quarantines or shutdowns of restaurants, bars, or public spaces. While there is a ban on public gatherings, the 500-person limit is more generous than in other countries.

Sweden is far from unaffected by the coronavirus epidemic, with markets in free fall, mass unemployment on the horizon, and the health services under growing pressure. As of Tuesday, a total of 36 Swedes have died after contracting the novel coronavirus and there are more than 2,000 confirmed cases of COVID-19, although the real number is not known since testing is generally limited to hospital patients and elderly home residents who show symptoms of COVID-19. Moreover, the Public Health Agency has refused to make public risk assessments or prediction models for the spread of the virus.

[Mapping the Coronavirus Outbreak: Get daily updates on the pandemic and learn how it’s affecting countries around the world.]

So why has Sweden chosen to steer clear of the draconian regulations imposed in other countries? The explanation, some analysts say, lies in Sweden’s combination of politically independent public agencies—including the Public Health Agency, which is front and center of the current crisis management—and the high level of public trust in them.

While the government in Sweden sets the remit for public agencies’ missions—determining their objectives and budgets for instance—the agencies are guaranteed freedom from so-called ministerial rule, which means politicians do not have the power to intervene directly in a public agency’s day-to-day operations. This is a tradition that is enshrined in the Swedish Constitution, said Lars Trägårdh, a historian and public commentator whose research centers on the Nordic welfare state.

“We’re seeing that tradition at work right now,” said Trägårdh, “since the Public Health Agency is tasked with being the leading authority on the coronavirus crisis, and the prime minister and his government are expected to listen to and follow their advice.”

Listen Now: Don't Touch Your Face

A new podcast from Foreign Policy covering all aspects of the coronavirus pandemic

Learn More

Sweden’s scientific community is not unanimous, and several experts have taken issue with the Public Health Agency. On March 20, a professor in epidemiology and a professor in mathematical statistics published a joint op-ed in the daily newspaper Svenska Dagbladet urging the country to change course. “The Public Health Agency must swiftly and unambiguously recommend social distancing for everyone, not just for those above 70,” they wrote, suggesting “far-reaching measures may be needed.” But on Sunday, the same newspaper carried a profile of Sweden’s state epidemiologist, Anders Tegnell, who heads the Public Health Agency and has become the face of Sweden’s fight against the coronavirus. Commenting on the media pressure he is under, Tegnell said: “Everything has become so political. Closing borders is a classic example. We had many such discussions during the 2009 (swine flu) pandemic and there was a consensus then among global experts that closing borders has never and will never work.” When neighboring Norway and Denmark announced border closures earlier this month, Tegnell told Swedish media that the moves had no scientific basis.

But while there are disagreements within the scientific community and beyond as to whether Sweden’s strategy has been sound or reckless, the sentence “We’re following the Public Health Agency’s recommendations” has also become somewhat of a mantra over the past few weeks, as government representatives have leaned on the agency’s directives when formulating, and defending, the measures taken to deal with the epidemic.

“By contrast,” Trägårdh said, “in Denmark and Norway, political leaders have gone against the local public health agencies’ advice on key matters like closing borders. That hasn’t happened in Sweden. Yet.”

But it’s not just the formalized prohibition on ministerial rule and a general preference for evidence-based politics that have colored Sweden’s strategy to contain the coronavirus outbreak. Another factor is at play, too—namely Sweden’s vastly above-average level of social trust, which has been documented in the World Values Survey, where Sweden, along with other Nordic nations, is a global outlier.

There are three aspects to the Nordic high-trust society, said Trägårdh. “First, citizens tend to place a lot of faith in public agencies and trust that they act in the public interest. Second, the authorities on their part trust citizens to heed their advice. Third, there is a high level of interpersonal trust where Swedes trust one other to act responsibly.”

Applied to the current situation, it means that public health experts and politicians alike act on the presumption that there is neither a general acceptance of nor a need for draconian legislation. Instead, there is an expectation that citizens will conform, that they will take personal responsibility and avoid crowds, work from home, keep a distance on public transport, and so on, without being strong-armed into doing so.

“Whether this is working is ultimately an empirical question that remains to be answered, but anecdotal evidence would at least suggest that people are practicing social distancing despite the absence of measures taken in other countries, where you need a special permit to leave your home and so on,” said Trägårdh.

 

[manitou]

Thanks, good buddy  

 

Incredible that Sweden still has social trust.  

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by manitou

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

You don't know if this difference is due to their different approaches or other factors, however.

 

 yes, thats right .   And we are in early stages ... as usual , 'down here'  we are often  'behind' .

 

I could not find anything on the news about  supermarkets going to 'staple food boxes pick up '   ???  

 

But other stuff ;

 

Rate of increase has dropped over the last 3 days  from 25% down to 3% .

 

A $130 Billion wage rescue package -  the Gov. pays employers to pay their employees  ( I think this is basically 'passing the buck ' as the Gov cant keep up with unemployment claims  processing  ) .

 

Evictions for  people that cant ay rent are illegal  and loans are being deferred .

 

Aside from all the Gov hype about how great they are the PM walked off stage without answering the  'where are all our masks and protective equipment ? '   Hardly anyone is masked and the the hospitals are running out , yet  some   random newsagents and 'dollar cheap ' stores are  selling boxes of masks and hand sanitiser .    Sanitiser will probably soon be available as some major (and some small 'home style ' ) breweries have switched  to making it .

 

Todays total is 4359  with  nearly half of those in NSW .

 

I saw a guy on news in  hand and leg cuffs being shuffled off to jail with police keeping their distance from him - he broke social distancing laws - they found him walking down the street alone   ... BUT  after reading more ,   he did it 3 times, including being found wandering far from home around the city ,   after being put in ' self  isolation' at home because he was a returned traveller  and they just kept taking him home after fining him .  # times and your 'out' I suppose .  Now he has been transferred from jail to hospital , so he is probably infected . 

 

Gatherings of more than 2 people are not allowed !   Soon it might be gatherings of  1 person is not allowed .

 

 Yes,  ... unless you are army or police  or medics  ...  or at the supermarket   

 

I suppose since we have VERY limited hospital space ( even at this early stage ) ,   virtually no testing  (  some locals and local medics have got together on their own here and bi passed the Gov and  have set up their own   a drive in testing clinic) . And no PPG (personal protective gear ) ; handwash, gloves and   masks .  So isolation is really the only option .

 

Well, its knocked our record out  ;  12 years of near constant presence on Saturday mornings  training at the river park .

 

Last Saturday , empty  ... and probably will be for some months .

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Moreover, it remains to be seen how things will develop over an extended period of time.