Pandemic Panic - Transcending the Fear

[liminal_luke]

5 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Er...  unlike our corporate Lords and Saviors, who are legally exempt from liability and free to recommend whatever they please with zero accountability or risk to themselves, a private citizen is lovingly encouraged by our betters to keep her mouth shut.

 

 

That´s unfortunate for me but I understand.

[Taomeow]

6 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

That´s unfortunate for me but I understand.

 

I'll exercise my first amendment rights in private and PM.  (Remind me if I space, please.)

[DreamBliss]

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Er...  unlike our corporate Lords and Saviors, who are legally exempt from liability and free to recommend whatever they please with zero accountability or risk to themselves, a private citizen is lovingly encouraged by our betters to keep her mouth shut.

 

 I wonder how many of the folks in charge of the corporations making the vaccine will actually take it? Do they even take the flu vaccine? My guess is no.

 

I will not take either vaccine, and do not recommend anyone else do either. But that is my personal opinion, and I am not a qualified medical professional, blah blah blah...

 

Do I need to put one of those legal disclaimer statements in my signature to make the folks in charge of the forums happy?

Edited December 7, 2020 by DreamBliss

[DreamBliss]

5 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Just to confirm your view if you´re willing to go out on this proverbial limb...you´d recommend against taking the Pfizer vaccine for people generally?  Are the other potential vaccines similarly problematic?  Understand if you´d rather not make explicit recommendations but appreciate any guidance/advice you´d care to offer.

 

(At this point I´m leaning towards shoring up my metabolic health, making sure I´m topped off nutritionally, and calling it good.  That´s not a position that´s likely to win me any points with my worrier mom and medical professional brother.)

Sounds like a plan to me! But be careful with the vitamin supplements, as you know they come from some of the same sources as the vaccine...

 

I stopped taking multivitamins YEARS ago!

Edited December 7, 2020 by DreamBliss

[Michael Sternbach]

10 hours ago, DreamBliss said:

 I wonder how many of the folks in charge of the corporations making the vaccine will actually take it? Do they even take the flu vaccine? My guess is no.

 

I will not take either vaccine, and do not recommend anyone else do either. But that is my personal opinion, and I am not a qualified medical professional, blah blah blah...

 

Do I need to put one of those legal disclaimer statements in my signature to make the folks in charge of the forums happy?

 

C'mon DB...

 

[Michael Sternbach]

10 hours ago, DreamBliss said:

Sounds like a plan to me! But be careful with the vitamin supplements, as you know they come from some of the same sources as the vaccine...

 

I stopped taking multivitamins YEARS ago!

 

I would agree that undiscriminating intake even of vitamins may not be unproblematic. Individual requirements and ability to process them vary.

 

That said, vitamins can not be nearly as potentially harmful as those vaccines. If you have faith in vitamins (specifically vitamin D has been suggested) to protect you, by all means, take them.

 

With any kind of medicine or supplement, part of their effect will be due to your belief in them anyway. This is called placebo effect and well known even in conventional medicine.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

I just learned about the idea of "immunity passports."  Some say it´s likely that in the future some sort of digital certificate of immunization will be required to board an airplane or otherwise travel freely.  This bums me out.  I´d like to think I could make my own choice about immunization based on my own assessment of it´s safety, but the immunity passport thing could strongly force my hand. 

[natural]

18 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I just learned about the idea of "immunity passports."  Some say it´s likely that in the future some sort of digital certificate of immunization will be required to board an airplane or otherwise travel freely.  This bums me out.  I´d like to think I could make my own choice about immunization based on my own assessment of it´s safety, but the immunity passport thing could strongly force my hand. 

Immunization not a requirement as I understand it.

It is one way to get an immunity passport. 

Another is to have tested positive for the virus, followed by a negative test.

[natural]

Travel has always involved choices, some will read compromise.

Head line reads: Man fined $3,500 for breaking Taiwan quarantine for 8 seconds.

I guess when in Rome... still applies.

Edited December 7, 2020 by natural
come to some spelling error

[liminal_luke]

52 minutes ago, natural said:

Immunization not a requirement as I understand it.

It is one way to get an immunity passport. 

Another is to have tested positive for the virus, followed by a negative test.

 

Likely true but not altogether reassuring.  I get that it´s a complicated ethical question.  Like almost everybody else, I hope that vaccines prove to be the magic bullet that will bring everything back to semi-normal.  Guess we´ll see.  

 

I´d like to hear more buzz -- and government action -- about simple things we might do to build immunity.  For instance, there could be a large-scale subsidized push to get everyone´s level of vitamin D tested.  Where indicated, vitamin D supplementation could be provided for free, especially for at-risk groups.  This is just one public health initiative that I believe could go far towards improving our situation.  Additionally, there´s so much more we could be doing to improve our health status.  Everyone knows that obesity, diabetes, hypertention, all these metabolic diseases are risk factors for severe disease.  The good news is that these are things we can do something about.  But people need education and support.  I wish Dr. Fauci would talk more about getting people holistic help to turn around these conditions.

 

The other thing we could be hearing more about are early strategies to prevent severe COVID in people who are just coming down with the disease.  As I understand it, most people are just told to basically wait things out and go to the hospital when they start to have trouble breathing or whatnot.  This makes no sense.  I believe that there are critical things people can do in the first few days of infection that could greatly stave off the possibility of complications.  Unfortunately, we hear zilch about such interventions from the government.  

[natural]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Likely true but not altogether reassuring.  I get that it´s a complicated ethical question.  Like almost everybody else, I hope that vaccines prove to be the magic bullet that will bring everything back to semi-normal.  Guess we´ll see.  

 

I´d like to hear more buzz -- and government action -- about simple things we might do to build immunity.  For instance, there could be a large-scale subsidized push to get everyone´s level of vitamin D tested.  Where indicated, vitamin D supplementation could be provided for free, especially for at-risk groups.  This is just one public health initiative that I believe could go far towards improving our situation.  Additionally, there´s so much more we could be doing to improve our health status.  Everyone knows that obesity, diabetes, hypertention, all these metabolic diseases are risk factors for severe disease.  The good news is that these are things we can do something about.  But people need education and support.  I wish Dr. Fauci would talk more about getting people holistic help to turn around these conditions.

 

The other thing we could be hearing more about are early strategies to prevent severe COVID in people who are just coming down with the disease.  As I understand it, most people are just told to basically wait things out and go to the hospital when they start to have trouble breathing or whatnot.  This makes no sense.  I believe that there are critical things people can do in the first few days of infection that could greatly stave off the possibility of complications.  Unfortunately, we hear zilch about such interventions from the government.  

Luke, I am going to have to check in with Manitou, but I almost feel like I am channeling Jack Web of Dragnet fame when "I say just the facts" lol.

I think it does involve personal responsibility and ethics.

 

People are going to resent any mandate. Be it masks or vitamin d testing.

Masks remain simple and cheap.

Behavioral changes needed to control obesity, diabetes and high blood pressure require time and effort.

Not the clear and immediate solution, but what is?

 

As I understand it hospitals in general and certainly in my neck of the woods are overwhelmed.

[natural]

By facts I mean that which a majority agree to be true.

Be it peer reviewed studies as opposed to conjecture promoted as fact.

Etc.

Not pointing fingers.

I expected the worse, it was worse than I expected, seems to be par for the course.

Hang in there!

 

 

[liminal_luke]

14 minutes ago, natural said:

 

People are going to resent any mandate. Be it masks or vitamin d testing.

Masks remain simple and cheap.

Behavioral changes needed to control obesity, diabetes and high blood pressure require time and effort.

Not the clear and immediate solution, but what is?

 

 

Oh, don´t get me wrong.  I´m not in favor of mandatory vitamin D testing or supplementation.  I might dream about a world in which people have to prove they eat grass-fed beef and get two hours of sun exposure daily in order to board a plane, but far be it from me to impose my views on vegetarian shut-ins.  No, what I´d like to see is education.

 

Yes, it does take time and effort to turn around obesity, diabetes, and high blood pressure.  I don´t blame anybody who has trouble with it including yours truly.  But it´s doable in most cases and eminently worth doing.  

 

I´m on board with your "just the facts" approach.  It´s just that sometimes things are presented as facts for purposes that have more to do with profit than public health.  Can I have my wingnut certificate now?

[natural]

Immunization requirements already exist for travel to some countries and to emigrate or naturalize in the United States.

So immunity passports do exist although until recently I can't recall them called passports, or their gathering such attention.

[Limahong]

39 minutes ago, natural said:

So immunity passports do exist although until recently I can't recall them called passports, or their gathering such attentionh. 

. 

A need for immunisation against word play/ploy/prey/...? 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Limahong
Enhancement

[manitou]

3 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I´d like to hear more buzz -- and government action -- about simple things we might do to build immunity.  For instance, there could be a large-scale subsidized push to get everyone´s level of vitamin D tested.  Where indicated, vitamin D supplementation could be provided for free, especially for at-risk groups.

 

I think this is a great idea.  To preemptively give out vitamins specifically geared to boost immune systems.  I also think they're going to need to enlist the help of some young superstars to pave the way on the voluntary vaccine thing.  I grew up with kids with polio, and it was incredible to see that horrible condition squashed in its tracks.  

 

The down side of it is that since the president's son-in-law set up the supply line on this, it no doubt enriches those families in some convoluted way.

[DreamBliss]

 

17 hours ago, natural said:

People are going to resent any mandate. Be it masks or vitamin d testing.

Masks remain simple and cheap.

Behavioral changes needed to control obesity, diabetes and high blood pressure require time and effort.

Not the clear and immediate solution, but what is?

 

Actually, the behavioral changes are related to social issues. Enlightened civilizations don't have any of thee things... Or COVID.

Edited December 8, 2020 by DreamBliss

[natural]

2 hours ago, DreamBliss said:

 

 

Actually, the behavioral changes are related to social issues. Enlightened civilizations don't have any of thee things... Or COVID.

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by natural

[Michael Sternbach]

3 hours ago, DreamBliss said:

 

 

Actually, the behavioral changes are related to social issues. Enlightened civilizations don't have any of thee things... Or COVID.

 

Most of all, an enlightened civilization wouldn't be handling that kind of crisis in such a self-destructive fashion.

 

While I would not go as far as calling Sweden an advanced civilization, I do think that it probably handled the pandemic better than any other nation so far. No lockdowns, no restrictions to speak of, no businesses going bankrupt... No more than a few behavioral recommendations - not including the wearing of masks!

 

Constantly being poo-pooed by other nations right from the beginning, that are untiredly painting dire pictures of the upcoming doom that is inevitably going to befall the Swedish, I do think the statistics speak for themselves:

 

Currently 267,953 cases of positive test results (out of a population of 10,327.589) of which no more than 249 (0,1%) are in a serious condition!

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus//country/sweden/

[ilumairen]

https://www.gazettenet.com/Covid-19-in-Sweden-37574909

[C T]

There are arguments to be made for compliance with strict protocols too. Taiwan is the leading example of this: Population 23.8 mil. Total cases 718. Total deaths 7. Active cases 129. Total cases/1M population: 30

 

 

 

Whats baffling is that the supposedly 'less advanced' countries have been faring much better. For instance, 

Tanzania: Population 60.4 mil. Total cases 509. Total deaths 21. Total cases/1m population: 8 

Cambodia: Population 16.8 mil. Total cases 350. Total deaths 0. Total cases/1m population: 21

Laos: Population 7.3 mil. Total cases 41. Total deaths 0. Total cases/1m population: 6 

 

Mongolia, Vietnam, Burundi, Bhutan, Papua New Guinea are also on the 'faring much better' list. 

Especially of note is Vietnam (97 mil population - 0.4 deaths/million) and Burundi (12 mil population - 0.08 deaths/million). 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

26 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Whats baffling is that the supposedly 'less advanced' countries have been faring much better. For instance, 

Tanzania: Population 60.4 mil. Total cases 509. Total deaths 21. Total cases/1m population: 8 

Cambodia: Population 16.8 mil. Total cases 350. Total deaths 0. Total cases/1m population: 21

Laos: Population 7.3 mil. Total cases 41. Total deaths 0. Total cases/1m population: 6 

 

Mongolia, Vietnam, Burundi, Bhutan, Papua New Guinea are also on the 'faring much better' list. 

Especially of note is Vietnam (97 mil population - 0.4 deaths/million) and Burundi (12 mil population - 0.08 deaths/million). 

 

 

I think it´s possible that the people in those "less advanced" countries you mentioned enjoy health-promoting lifestyles,  at least compared to the US and most of Europe.  It´s precisely the so-called diseases of civilization that predispose people to severe COVID.  Here are the questions I would ask...

 

Is their diet less processed?

Do they spend more time outside?

Are their family and friendship circles tighter knit?

Do they spend less time in front of screens (TV, computer, etc)?

Do they walk greater distances on an average daily basis?

 

If the answer to these and similar question is yes, I think we have our answer.

 

[manitou]

It might also be that other areas have experienced pandemics before.  I went to China maybe 30 years ago and they were already wearing masks in Shanghai.  I was under the impression that it was because of the poor air quality at that time, but maybe it was a disease thing.   Places with extremely high density may have learned to live with this.  We are an absolutely undisciplined country, and having to follow any sort of regulation is difficult for us.  And we pay.

[Michael Sternbach]

3 minutes ago, manitou said:

It might also be that other areas have experienced pandemics before.  I went to China maybe 30 years ago and they were already wearing masks in Shanghai.  I was under the impression that it was because of the poor air quality at that time, but maybe it was a disease thing.   Places with extremely high density may have learned to live with this.  We are an absolutely undisciplined country, and having to follow any sort of regulation is difficult for us.  And we pay.

 

I don't know about China, but in Japan it is very common that people are wearing masks for avoiding to pass on an ordinary cold or flu. In fact, this is one of the first things that stick out to an unsuspecting visitor, IME.

[Apech]

8 hours ago, ilumairen said:

https://www.gazettenet.com/Covid-19-in-Sweden-37574909

 

Beware of anti-Sweden propaganda - check graphs of new cases and deaths:

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/