Pandemic Panic - Transcending the Fear

[Nungali]

19 hours ago, Apech said:

 

And the lockdown approach magically worked in China but nowhere else.  Well, well well.  Makes you think.

 

No where else ?

 

 

Dont be a hemispherist !

 

 

 

[Apech]

 

[natural]

The leading cause of death is of course being born.

 

Is it biased to want to live with the least amount of pain?

Of course! We as humans are in a constant struggle to weigh risk versus reward. 

As much gain as possible with least amount of pain.

 

Can science help us arrive at common sense conclusions of risk versus rewards in particular situations?

Of course.

Yes, driving is dangerous, and we can weigh the risks versus the what we get from doing versus not doing it. 

We can choose to or not to drive. That being said the choice is not always totally based on science.

An automobile manufacturer, seller or mechanic have biases that inform their choice(s) as to whether to do so or not.

A Luddite will be making choice(s) concerning automobiles with different biases in place.

 

Know who is providing the information and why!

What are their bias? It exists. It can be accounted for.

An informed choice is better than an uninformed one.

[manitou]

I have a theory.  

I understand the need to give the vaccines to the people who are the most vulnerable.  But it seems like the probable spreaders will be the last ones to get it.

 

It's like if you want to chop down a tree, you don't start by plucking off the leaves.  You have to go for the trunk.  Of course, the leaves are the most vulnerable to whatever comes along.  But if you don't chop down the trunk you will just have a leafless trunk.

 

I think there should be a split on this.  Maybe give half the vaccines to the most vulnerable.  But also give half to the movers and shakers that spin in and out of social contact.  Like attacking it from two directions.  Sure, the old folks are safe, the way we're doing it. But I think they should be thinking ahead too by trying to stop the growth. That won't happen by vaccinating everyone in retirement homes.

 

[liminal_luke]

Regular gay clubgoers will be familiar with the type: the solitary balding superspreader senior who feels no shame (and good on him!) dancing by himself in a bar full of twentysomethings.  Lets vaccinnate these gentleman first.

Edited January 18, 2021 by liminal_luke

[cheya]

The way I understand it so far, the vaccine has not been shown to stop you from getting the virus or from spreading it. It does apparently help you not to get severe symptoms or to die from it. That's definitely a plus.  However, this doesn't sound like the vaccine protects those around you. 

 

So if you want to save lives, optional strategy does seem to be to give it to those most likely to die from it. Vaccinated spreaders can still spread.

 

Reminder: vitamins D, A and C, and minerals magnesium and zinc are profoundly protective, as is melatonin.  I add iodine supplementation to that list. You can take these right now AND get the vaccine when it comes available... if you so choose.

 

 

Edited January 18, 2021 by cheya

[Nungali]

Here is a good trick ;

 

get your nation to host its own 'Tennis Open'  in the middle of its propensity to spring surprise lockdowns on people. Invite International tennis starts to compete   ( with some fine print cintract details about testing and all that stuff ... dont worry, you be okay   ) .

 

Then, as their teams arrive you test them, if one tests positive you lock the whole crew / plane load of them up in quarantine  for two weeks  and NO you cant go out and train ... what's the point ?   We probably will not end up having a Tennis Open anyway ....  Let you out for exercise  ? ? ?   What ?  You crazy or something ? There is a pandemic on !

 

... just wait until the 'spectators start getting   locked   up ...   turning up 

Edited January 18, 2021 by Nungali

[thelerner]

This is an interesting tangent.  Good news, in that lives are being saved or rather not lost. (https://elemental.medium.com/influenza-nah-never-heard-of-it-1b6a55f99648)  

5 Reasons Flu Cases Are Way Down This Year

‘I don’t want to jinx us, but this may turn out to be the mildest flu season on record’  Bo Stapler, MD  Jan 9

"..It’s nearly halfway through the 2020–2021 flu season, and as I walk the halls of the hospital where I work, I realize none of the patients are here with influenza. In fact, only 925 cases of flu have been confirmed in the United States thus far this season, and none in my home state of Montana. This compares to 63,975 confirmed cases in the United States at the same time last year.."

 

 

 

If true, what a change in numbers.  From 63,975 to 925 cases of flu!  The article goes on to state the reasons why its' gone down so dramatically.   If accurate or even half accurate its an interesting insight into how our group behavior affects general health.  I'd say it also points to a darker reality if we hadn't done anything to keep Covid numbers down.  

 

I expect other communicable disease are down.  Some cancers are 'seeded' by virus's.  Wonder if we'll see a decrease 'bump' in cancers along the road in a few years?  What other links will a drastic social restriction reveal?  I've read that at times recession has proven healthier to a population then times of excess.  People forced to eat in, eat less, eat simpler..

[manitou]

maybe the 2 flus got married

 

[Bindi]

11 people per million are having an anaphylactic reaction to the Pfizer vaccine, with no recorded deaths from anaphylaxis. Most of the people who have this reaction have previously had an anaphylactic reaction to something else. It looks relatively safe to me, especially considering the alternative for at risk people. 
 

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2775646

[Nungali]

More strange covid news from Oz ;

 

I was watching an economic report on the news . Seems like our economy is doing amazingly well NOW  , becasue of covid . A series of all sorts of graphs where presented and they all go up over the last few  months .

 

Looking at a projected graph of growth made before covid existed  up to the present , compared to a graph from what actually happened . the actul one is WAY above the projected one .

 

As I noted earlier , friends have more money, are spending more money and some have multiple jobs .

 

The problem is ( and of course this is happening ! )  all these benefits are mostly at the top end of society, that is , the gap between rich and poor is also increasing  .  Although in my observations , of people with more jobs and money, they are not rich people .

 

 

[Apech]

!?!

Quote

 

Another point to consider about India is how many other diseases are already rampant: malaria, dengue fever, typhoid, hepatitis, cholera. Millions of Indians also lack access to clean drinking water, sanitation and hygienic food. Some experts speculate that people with robust immune systems may be more likely to survive in India in the first place.

"All of us have pretty good immunity! Look at the average Indian: He or she has probably had malaria at some point in his life or typhoid or dengue," says Sayli Udas-Mankikar, an urban policy expert at the Observer Research Foundation in Mumbai. "You end up with basic immunity toward grave diseases."

Two new scientific papers support that thesis, though they have yet to be peer-reviewed: One study by Indian scientists from Chennai and Pune, published in October, found that low- and lower-middle-income countries with less access to health care facilities, hygiene and sanitation actually have lower numbers of COVID-19 deaths per capita. Another study by scientists at India's Dr. Rajendra Prasad Government Medical College, published in August, found that COVID-19 deaths per capita are lower in countries where people are exposed to a diverse range of microbes and bacteria.

But experts warn that these two studies are preliminary and should serve only as a springboard for more investigation.

 

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/02/01/962821038/the-mystery-of-indias-plummeting-covid-19-cases?utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/

 

 

[Taomeow]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

!?!

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/02/01/962821038/the-mystery-of-indias-plummeting-covid-19-cases?utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/

 

 

 

Here's another (the real?) reason India is doing well:

 

 

This is the home care kit that's been distributed by the Indian government to the population for months now, for the price of $2.50.   Plus HCQ is routinely taken for malaria prevention in billions of doses. 

 

Ivermectin offers almost 100% protection, close to 100% cure when taken early, and a very high percentage of recoveries taken at any stage of the illness (although it is not clear at this point if it is efficient with long covid, characterized by damage already done to multiple organs and systems rather than by the continued activity of the virus.)  Dr. Pierre Cory who testified before the Senate begging the government to please lend its deaf ear to the overwhelming scientific and clinical evidence suggests a higher dose for treatment (25 mg taken for 3 days), and I've seen at least one study where the dose proposed is 10 times higher for full-blown covid (still safe), but the one offered by the Indian government (also used in other countries with results similar to India's) has been shown to be sufficient for prevention.  

 

Of course no one is interested who is nurtured by the Great Father Pharma's inexhaustible breast whence the milk of human kindness never ceases to flow.    

[cheya]

I you haven't got the vax yet, do read this first. Dr. Mercola sums it up pretty well.

 

COVID-19 mRNA Shots Are Legally Not Vaccines

The article goes waaay beyond the title.

 

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2021/02/09/coronavirus-mrna-vaccine.aspx?ui=1e11a91deafeb9e595bb5a0e8a08c33d75bd5689da06b3817e902fc6738eed56&sd=20110604&cid_source=dnl&cid_medium=email&cid_content=art1HL&cid=20210209_HL2&mid=DM799847&rid=1080086943

[Bindi]

16 minutes ago, cheya said:

I you haven't got the vax yet, do read this first. Dr. Mercola sums it up pretty well.

 

COVID-19 mRNA Shots Are Legally Not Vaccines

The article goes waaay beyond the title.

 

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2021/02/09/coronavirus-mrna-vaccine.aspx?ui=1e11a91deafeb9e595bb5a0e8a08c33d75bd5689da06b3817e902fc6738eed56&sd=20110604&cid_source=dnl&cid_medium=email&cid_content=art1HL&cid=20210209_HL2&mid=DM799847&rid=1080086943

I read it, and tend to agree I’m not interested in gene therapy for cancer. I looked into vaccines that might be available in Australia and I found this list, it seems very upfront, and might take some research to figure out which vaccine might be best for those that do want a vaccine. 
 

https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-vaccines/about-covid-19-vaccines/australias-vaccine-agreements

 

 

[Apech]

1 minute ago, Bindi said:

I read it, and tend to agree I’m not interested in gene therapy for cancer. I looked into vaccines that might be available in Australia and I found this list, it seems very upfront, and might take some research to figure out which vaccine might be best for those that do want a vaccine. 
 

https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-vaccines/about-covid-19-vaccines/australias-vaccine-agreements

 

 

 

Don't you have Pfizer?

 

My parents have had it and seem ok - my sister has had the astrazeneca version ... she seems to have survived.

 

In Portugal there have been numerous scandals where politicians and health officials have given the vaccine to friends and family.  The program is now under a vice Admiral from the Navy so there's no messing.  Meanwhile I hide in my bunker.

 

 

 

 

[Bindi]

13 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Don't you have Pfizer?

 

My parents have had it and seem ok - my sister has had the astrazeneca version ... she seems to have survived.

 

In Portugal there have been numerous scandals where politicians and health officials have given the vaccine to friends and family.  The program is now under a vice Admiral from the Navy so there's no messing.  Meanwhile I hide in my bunker.

 

 

 

 

Yes Pfizer will also be available, I read up on it just now and it seems to work safely and effectively, but it is an RNA vaccine. 

 

No one’s bunkered down here, we had one community transmission case in our entire state and our entire state closed down for five days! For the rest it’s been life as normal, or nearly normal, except that international travel is banned. When Australia does open up I plan on being vaccinated, as does my mother. 

[cheya]

Both Phizer and Modern are RNA gene therapy, and do NOT qualify as "vaccines".  A credible authority (IMO), who will not be vaccinated himself, says probably the best of the lot is the Russian "Sputnik."

 

[Bindi]

19 minutes ago, cheya said:

Both Phizer and Modern are RNA gene therapy, and do NOT qualify as "vaccines".  A credible authority (IMO), who will not be vaccinated himself, says probably the best of the lot is the Russian "Sputnik."

 

I read astra Zeneca uses the same principle as the Sputnik vaccine, so that’s all good and well, but now I read that astra Zeneca is not effective against the South African variant, I don’t know about the Sputnik (which isn’t available in Australia anyway, so not an option for us). Apparently we’re not out of the woods yet, maybe astra Zeneca and then a booster for the variants when it’s available. 

[Apech]

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

I read astra Zeneca uses the same principle as the Sputnik vaccine, so that’s all good and well, but now I read that astra Zeneca is not effective against the South African variant, I don’t know about the Sputnik (which isn’t available in Australia anyway, so not an option for us). Apparently we’re not out of the woods yet, maybe astra Zeneca and then a booster for the variants when it’s available. 

 

I'm slightly suspicious about the negative publicity around the astrazeneca vax.  At one point they were saying it didn't work on over 65s - but that turned out to be just that the testing didn't adequately cover that group.  Maybe it doesn't work so well for the SA variant ... but I suspect what we are witnessing are big pharma wars over profit since the AZ vax is cheaper than the others.

 

 

[Apech]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/10/oxford-vaccine-covid-19-jab-south-african-variant

[cheya]

Anybody else get the feeling we're being driven (or herded) toward the genetic therapies as opposed to actual vaccines? The genetic therapies actually don't qualify as vaccines. See Mercola's article above if you wonder what that means  

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by cheya

[Apech]

As to lockdown versus non-lockdown - compare Sweden to Uk to see that there are other ways of doing things:

 

[cheya]

Interesting that Sweden also supplements its population with vitamin D3.

That, by itself, would help a lot if it was enough to actually raise blood levels.

 

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by cheya

[thelerner]

13 minutes ago, cheya said:

Interesting that Sweden also supplements its population with vitamin D3.

That, by itself, would help a lot if it was enough to actually raise blood levels.

That's smart.  Wouldn't be surprised if Swedes were healthier in general compared to England.  Exercise, fresh mountain air.. perhaps even less tourism and travel might help in the current conditions.  I'd rather see the above chart against Norway, Finland or Denmark.  It'll be a little more apple to apples.

 

<fwiw From Scandinavian Journal of Health in July    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1403494820980264

Mortality

Higher case incidence corresponds to overall higher COVID-19 specific mortality rates. Sweden, with a COVID-19 attributed death rate of 0.54 per 1000 population as of July 5, has a higher death rate compared with its neighbours (Figure 1(c)): 11.5× compared with Norway (0.05 deaths per 1000 population), 5.1× compared with Denmark (0.10 deaths per 1000 population), and 9.1× compared with Finland (0.06 deaths per 1000 population).. 

 

course I'd also expect most of Europe did much better than the US.  >

Edited February 11, 2021 by thelerner