downward energy flow

[S01000]

hello all,

 

I hope everyone is hanging in there during this tough time.

 

After years of seated meditation (and resultant emotional cleansing) I developed lots of energetic phenomenon and was unable to do sitting practice anymore because it led to irritability, insomnia, and more unpleasant energetic phenomenon.

 

I did spontaneous qigong for a while and the emotional cleansing continued and did pretty ok with it. However eventually the energy built up again and I became less and less tolerant of the practice.

 

I tried just a few minutes of standing meditation yesterday (first time in a while) and developed irritability and insomnia.

 

I was told that the seated meditation I did resulted in an upwards flow of energy in my body and I need to work on the downward current.

 

Do you think that the water method of Master Bruce Frantzis Energy Arts systems would be effective for this? I am somewhat hesitant to try another practice, but from what I have learned it sounds like it might be helpful as I understand in the beginning it is all about increasing the downward flow of energy. Would anyone recommend any particular practices from the system for someone in my situation?

 

I have noticed that only one exercise really helped to balance the energy and actually reversed any energy imbalance - Dragon and Tiger exercise 1. 

 

Thank you so much.

Edited March 30, 2020 by S01000
addition

[Earl Grey]

No.

[senseless virtue]

 

I am due to update this with new recommendations. Basically all the practices I have indicated are superb for beginners and very safe also.

[Earl Grey]

Consult Eric Isen. www.ayurvedicintuitive.com

Edited March 30, 2020 by Earl Grey

[RiverSnake]

Pm me, may be able to offer some help. 

[Creation]

On 3/30/2020 at 8:02 AM, S01000 said:

 

Do you think that the water method of Master Bruce Frantzis Energy Arts systems would be effective for this? I am somewhat hesitant to try another practice, but from what I have learned it sounds like it might be helpful as I understand in the beginning it is all about increasing the downward flow of energy. Would anyone recommend any particular practices from the system for someone in my situation?

 

I have noticed that only one exercise really helped to balance the energy and actually reversed any energy imbalance - Dragon and Tiger exercise 1. 

Actually, sinking qi to the lower dan tian if not all the way to below the feet is foundational for a lot of Chinese internal (martial, medical, spiritual) arts, but many schools don't explain the internal principles of working with the body and qi and instead use visualization (which sends energy up to the head).  Frantzis' method is one way of training to sink the qi by training internal work, and probably the most widely known and widely diffused one in the West.  I can't comment on his meditation methods and I think the fire and water method stuff is an oversimplification and often comes across as rhetoric.  But I have gotten a lot out of it the actual internal work in his entry level sets Energy Gates, Dragon and Tiger, and Heaven and Earth qigong. Energy Gates trains moving with correct alignment and relaxation, D&T trains working with external energy field, and H&E trains opening and closing the joints and bending and stretching the fascia.  Personally, I couldn't get the outer dissolving process, the characteristic method of his system to train the downward flow and release blockages, working without training these other components of his system first.

[Apech]

On 3/30/2020 at 2:02 PM, S01000 said:

hello all,

 

I hope everyone is hanging in there during this tough time.

 

After years of seated meditation (and resultant emotional cleansing) I developed lots of energetic phenomenon and was unable to do sitting practice anymore because it led to irritability, insomnia, and more unpleasant energetic phenomenon.

 

I did spontaneous qigong for a while and the emotional cleansing continued and did pretty ok with it. However eventually the energy built up again and I became less and less tolerant of the practice.

 

I tried just a few minutes of standing meditation yesterday (first time in a while) and developed irritability and insomnia.

 

I was told that the seated meditation I did resulted in an upwards flow of energy in my body and I need to work on the downward current.

 

Do you think that the water method of Master Bruce Frantzis Energy Arts systems would be effective for this? I am somewhat hesitant to try another practice, but from what I have learned it sounds like it might be helpful as I understand in the beginning it is all about increasing the downward flow of energy. Would anyone recommend any particular practices from the system for someone in my situation?

 

I have noticed that only one exercise really helped to balance the energy and actually reversed any energy imbalance - Dragon and Tiger exercise 1. 

 

Thank you so much.

 

What does your mind look like when you get this irritable/insomnia state?

 

 

[S01000]

12 hours ago, Creation said:

Actually, sinking qi to the lower dan tian if not all the way to below the feet is foundational for a lot of Chinese internal (martial, medical, spiritual) arts, but many schools don't explain the internal principles of working with the body and qi and instead use visualization (which sends energy up to the head).  Frantzis' method is one way of training to sink the qi by training internal work, and probably the most widely known and widely diffused one in the West.  I can't comment on his meditation methods and I think the fire and water method stuff is an oversimplification and often comes across as rhetoric.  But I have gotten a lot out of it the actual internal work in his entry level sets Energy Gates, Dragon and Tiger, and Heaven and Earth qigong. Energy Gates trains moving with correct alignment and relaxation, D&T trains working with external energy field, and H&E trains opening and closing the joints and bending and stretching the fascia.  Personally, I couldn't get the outer dissolving process, the characteristic method of his system to train the downward flow and release blockages, working without training these other components of his system first.

 

Thank you so much that's very helpful. How did you learn those sets through the books? I did Dragon and Tiger but I remember one or two of the exercises caused me to feel overloaded/imbalanced.

 

[S01000]

27 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

What does your mind look like when you get this irritable/insomnia state?

 

 

Thank you - not sure if I understand the question fully. I just feel very irritable, on edge, impatient, etc. 

[Apech]

19 minutes ago, S01000 said:

Thank you - not sure if I understand the question fully. I just feel very irritable, on edge, impatient, etc. 

 

Do you find your mind is racing?

[Creation]

21 minutes ago, S01000 said:

 

Thank you so much that's very helpful. How did you learn those sets through the books? I did Dragon and Tiger but I remember one or two of the exercises caused me to feel overloaded/imbalanced.

 

I learned them from DVDs back when he sold DVDs .  There are demos by his senior instructors on youtube to use for reference if you have the books, and also he has very thorough online courses for the three sets I mentioned but they are pricey.  The old D&T DVD is available as an online course for less money than the 10 week D&T course.  I have had occasional overload issues with the last 2 movements of D&T, do you remember which movement caused you problems?

[S01000]

Not necessarily, I don't think so. Not completely still but not racing too much either. I can pretty easily still the mind if I wanted to now a days, its just this problem that occurs if I do any kind of formal meditation or focused attention. Thank you.

[S01000]

3 minutes ago, Creation said:

I learned them from DVDs back when he sold DVDs .  There are demos by his senior instructors on youtube to use for reference if you have the books, and also he has very thorough online courses for the three sets I mentioned but they are pricey.  The old D&T DVD is available as an online course for less money than the 10 week D&T course.  I have had occasional overload issues with the last 2 movements of D&T, do you remember which movement caused you problems?

Great thank you very much.

 

I think it was the one that traced Dai Mai around the belt and then went down to the feet? That might have been the 3rd or the 4th one if I remember. I don't think I practiced much of 2-7 after that. Its crazy how Dragon and Tiger 1 works for me - if I get really overloaded I do it and by the next day I feel fine. I have read and heard its a balancing exercise that balances the upward and downward flow of the body. I am not very knowledgeable about all of this. 

[S01000]

3 minutes ago, S01000 said:

Great thank you very much.

 

I think it was the one that traced Dai Mai around the belt and then went down to the feet? That might have been the 3rd or the 4th one if I remember. I don't think I practiced much of 2-7 after that. Its crazy how Dragon and Tiger 1 works for me - if I get really overloaded I do it and by the next day I feel fine. I have read and heard its a balancing exercise that balances the upward and downward flow of the body. I am not very knowledgeable about all of this. 

 

This was all about a year and a half ago at which time I made the decision to go in the spontaneous qigong direction. I don't think the spontaneous qigong solved any of these underlying issues (not able to do sitting meditation, regular zhan zhuang) and was causing some intense energetic stuff for a few months so now I am reevaluating my approach. Thank you.

Edited April 1, 2020 by S01000
addition

[Creation]

43 minutes ago, S01000 said:

Great thank you very much.

 

I think it was the one that traced Dai Mai around the belt and then went down to the feet? That might have been the 3rd or the 4th one if I remember. I don't think I practiced much of 2-7 after that. Its crazy how Dragon and Tiger 1 works for me - if I get really overloaded I do it and by the next day I feel fine. I have read and heard its a balancing exercise that balances the upward and downward flow of the body. I am not very knowledgeable about all of this. 

Ah, that's movement 3.  If movement 1 works well for you and you didn't have any problem with 2, consider re-incorperating 2.  That said, given you issues, Energy Gates or Heaven and Earth would be my pick from Frantzis' entry level sets.  Energy Gates is where the downard flow is specifically emphasized, Heaven and Earth trains the joints and fascia without which the methods of Energy Gates might not work well (in my experience, others have been fine starting with EG).  Not sure which to recommend in your case, but EG has a book while H&E is online only so more expensive.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Creation

[S01000]

Thank you so much I really appreciate it. Energy Gates book is already on the way think I am going to start there and maybe get the online course too. Last question, do all of the exercises work on the downward flow from Energy Gates or is it just the standing practice? Thanks again.

[Creation]

The point with them is that if you get the alignments correct and do the movements as relaxed as possible, the downward flow starts to happen on it's own.  The two problems I encountered were:

1. Trying to "do" outer dissolving with the conceptual mind will not sink the qi, but will actually raise it.

2. Confusing relaxation with limpness and confusing sinking via letting go with pushing energy downward. 

I didn't make the first error very long because I was warned against it, but I very much made the second error (both parts) and it completely prevented any progress.  Only when I learned the joint and fascia work taught in his other sets did I realize how big of a mistake I had been making, at the same time I found Damo Mitchell's material which confirmed this.

[S01000]

Thank you so much I really appreciate it.

 

4 minutes ago, Creation said:

The point with them is that if you get the alignments correct and do the movements as relaxed as possible, the downward flow starts to happen on it's own.  The two problems I encountered were:

1. Trying to "do" outer dissolving with the conceptual mind will not sink the qi, but will actually raise it.

2. Confusing relaxation with limpness and confusing sinking via letting go with pushing energy downward. 

I didn't make the first error very long because I was warned against it, but I very much made the second error (both parts) and it completely prevented any progress.  Only when I learned the joint and fascia work taught in his other sets did I realize how big of a mistake I had been making, at the same time I found Damo Mitchell's material which confirmed this.

 

[Master Logray]

Spontaneous Chikung is generally avoided even with instructors as it is prone to problems.   TCMwise, drawing the energy down can be helped safely by

 

1: Massage acupuncture point YongChuan (the gushing spring)  https://tcmwiki.com/wiki/涌泉,

 

2: Immerse the feet into hot water, may be add some salt. 

 

[idiot_stimpy]

I find it helps to sink your attention into the intestinal area and adjacent section of spine if you're feeling that irritable/insomnia state. 

 

I find if you practice fasting or complete celibacy it can also bring on this irritable/insomnia state, and in itself it is not a bad thing, as it will force negative aspects of the psych up into conscious awareness. The great test for you at this time is to deal with it and not letting it overcome you through negative thoughts or emotions. Pay specific attention to what arises in the mind at this time and look to resolve any concealed mental baggage by letting it go. 

[awaken]

On 2020/3/30 at 9:02 PM, S01000 said:

hello all,

 

I hope everyone is hanging in there during this tough time.

 

After years of seated meditation (and resultant emotional cleansing) I developed lots of energetic phenomenon and was unable to do sitting practice anymore because it led to irritability, insomnia, and more unpleasant energetic phenomenon.

 

I did spontaneous qigong for a while and the emotional cleansing continued and did pretty ok with it. However eventually the energy built up again and I became less and less tolerant of the practice.

 

I tried just a few minutes of standing meditation yesterday (first time in a while) and developed irritability and insomnia.

 

I was told that the seated meditation I did resulted in an upwards flow of energy in my body and I need to work on the downward current.

 

Do you think that the water method of Master Bruce Frantzis Energy Arts systems would be effective for this? I am somewhat hesitant to try another practice, but from what I have learned it sounds like it might be helpful as I understand in the beginning it is all about increasing the downward flow of energy. Would anyone recommend any particular practices from the system for someone in my situation?

 

I have noticed that only one exercise really helped to balance the energy and actually reversed any energy imbalance - Dragon and Tiger exercise 1. 

 

Thank you so much.

 

You make a big mistake, 練陽不練陰. You practice Yang but no Ying. A right practice must include both, Ying and Yang.

[awaken]

On 2020/4/1 at 11:41 PM, S01000 said:

 

This was all about a year and a half ago at which time I made the decision to go in the spontaneous qigong direction. I don't think the spontaneous qigong solved any of these underlying issues (not able to do sitting meditation, regular zhan zhuang) and was causing some intense energetic stuff for a few months so now I am reevaluating my approach. Thank you.

 

I practice the spontaneous qigong for more than fifteen years. The spontaneous qigong is able to do sitting meditation and Zhan Ahuang. All practice can be included in the spontaneous qigong. Many people think the spontaneous qigong is just moving. This is definitely wrong. 

Edited April 25, 2020 by awaken

[David Langford]

On 4/23/2020 at 6:59 AM, Master Logray said:

Spontaneous Chikung is generally avoided even with instructors as it is prone to problems.   TCMwise, drawing the energy down can be helped safely by

 

1: Massage acupuncture point YongChuan (the gushing spring)  https://tcmwiki.com/wiki/涌泉,

 

2: Immerse the feet into hot water, may be add some salt. 

 

 

It's interesting you say this because every single new student in my school learns Flowing Breeze Swaying Willow, what you might call Spontaneous Chikung.

[Zork]

On 4/23/2020 at 4:59 PM, Master Logray said:

Spontaneous Chikung is generally avoided even with instructors as it is prone to problems.   TCMwise, drawing the energy down can be helped safely by

 

1: Massage acupuncture point YongChuan (the gushing spring)  https://tcmwiki.com/wiki/涌泉,

 

2: Immerse the feet into hot water, may be add some salt. 

 

I have seen point 1 mentioned on the pdf of fragrant. Specifically the left foot. There are other instructions to stop the movements there because spontaneous movement that doesn't stop isn't a good sign but the advice might be fragrant specific.

 

5 hours ago, David Langford said:

It's interesting you say this because every single new student in my school learns Flowing Breeze Swaying Willow, what you might call Spontaneous Chikung.

This is weird all right. What happens when a student can't stop moving?

I will stand with what was said before that spontaneous qigong is dangerous for the undisciplined and the ones who have blockages.

What your school chooses to teach or doesn't, isn't my business.

[Master Logray]

7 hours ago, David Langford said:

 

It's interesting you say this because every single new student in my school learns Flowing Breeze Swaying Willow, what you might call Spontaneous Chikung.

 

 

Requote my own msg,. 

Problems include

- physical injury in personal or group setting

- Chi out of control, Chi used up

- heart, high blood pressure, long term illness not suitable

- psychiatric problems for the weak minded

- psychic problems

- not suitable for self learning

 

Many of the items are sourced from a Hong Kong Chikung Sifu's site.  He also teaches Spontaneous Chikung as you.  So his cautions should be useful.