downward energy flow

[David Langford]

On 5/22/2020 at 1:26 AM, Master Logray said:

 

 

Requote my own msg,. 

Problems include

- physical injury in personal or group setting

- Chi out of control, Chi used up

- heart, high blood pressure, long term illness not suitable

- psychiatric problems for the weak minded

- psychic problems

- not suitable for self learning

 

Many of the items are sourced from a Hong Kong Chikung Sifu's site.  He also teaches Spontaneous Chikung as you.  So his cautions should be useful.

 

Ah I see what you mean. Perhaps I can address each of these points from the point of view of the system I learned which may be vastly different than this HK Sifu's system for all I know.

 

Physical injury: 

This has not happened as far as I am aware to any students that have learned my teachers method, in fact we use it as a way to clear out any potential injuries from training. I've had training injuries from sparring clear out within minutes or hours. In fact many students develop a form of golden bell, enhanced constitution, and bolstered recovery rate.

 

Chi out of control/used up:

We are always in control even if it is spontaneous. One of the first skills we learn, besides letting go to enter into chi flow, is that with a gentle focus of the dantian we can go into a flowing stillness, or even a gentle thought of slowing down to reduce the vigorous movements if desired. More precise controls such as using this skill of mind moving energy moving form comes from this and is applied to all our martial practices as well. Self Manifested Chi Movement is the basis of much of what we do. We balance vigorous movements with flowing stillness after followed by meditation either standing or sitting. As blockages are dispersed, movements become less and less vigorous naturally. Rather than Chi being used up it is always being replenished, even during sparring or solo practice of our martial arts. The main sign we use to determine if training is successful is if we feel better after a training session. Tiredness, fatigue, and mental cloudiness are all signs of incorrect practice.

 

Heart, high blood pressure, illness etc: My father has heart disease, high blood pressure, etc and when he learned these issues stopped being such a big problem for him. He even recovered strength and movement in a fully paralyzed left arm from a botched neck surgery. His progress has been a big inspiration for me. Our teacher encourages those with chronic issues to practice twice a day to recover.

 

Psychiatric problems: Indeed, if one trains incorrectly, but that can be said for every issue you presented. However it's hard to train incorrectly as one must purposefully not follow directions. In these cases the students are asked to discontinue practice and remove themselves from the school. The meditative aspects of our practice cultivate Shen, as well as Qi and Jing.

 

Psychic problems: I have found in my own practice, and the practice of my friends that the mind is strengthened. We incorporate the mind, energy, and body as one in triple cultivation. Such things as ghosts, and black magic are repelled in those who have established their foundation. 

 

Not suitable for self learning: 100% agreed. Transmission is necessary for safe practice.

 

One issue that does pop up for us is when students progress too quickly they need to slow down to let the body catch up to the energy cultivated as the cleansing can become uncomfortable. 

 

To answer Zork more directly, if a student has blockages they are encouraged to train our Qigong before learning Kungfu to clear them. "First be healthy, then learn to defend yourself."

 

"What your school chooses to teach or doesn't, isn't my business."

 

Of course, but I felt compelled to answer and give some anecdotal evidence that when trained properly this practice is not only safe but highly beneficial.

[Zork]

On 5/23/2020 at 10:02 PM, David Langford said:

To answer Zork more directly, if a student has blockages they are encouraged to train our Qigong before learning Kungfu to clear them. "First be healthy, then learn to defend yourself."

Thank you for the answer but i did not ask that question. I asked what do you do when a student can't stop moving as a qi deviation from spontaneous.

 

On 5/23/2020 at 10:02 PM, David Langford said:

Of course, but I felt compelled to answer and give some anecdotal evidence that when trained properly this practice is not only safe but highly beneficial.

The problem with "that" evidence is that it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. I can point you to threads here in TDB that involve people having been damaged by training in Spontaneous qigong systems. This isn't proof either, by the way, just an indication.

[Master Logray]

Before writing about this subject, I did't think injury is a big issue.  Most of the contentions are about uncontrollable Chi or so called psychic problems.   Thinking about it again, a group of people, in a semi-trance state, acting out wide movements that are erratic and without pattern, it is prone to hit somebody.  Nothing can be worst if a student is in trance, suddenly hit by someone and knocked on something or fallen to the ground, there would be psychological shocks and Chi would run uncontrolled too.   When I learned Spontaneous, the light was intentionally dimmed, though I was not aware of the danger then.

[David Langford]

17 hours ago, Zork said:

Thank you for the answer but i did not ask that question. I asked what do you do when a student can't stop moving as a qi deviation from spontaneous.

 

The problem with "that" evidence is that it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. I can point you to threads here in TDB that involve people having been damaged by training in Spontaneous qigong systems. This isn't proof either, by the way, just an indication.

 

I did answer, that simply isn't a problem for us because every single student learns how to control the movements during their first lesson.

[Zork]

6 hours ago, David Langford said:

 

I did answer, that simply isn't a problem for us because every single student learns how to control the movements during their first lesson.

You just gave me one of the Red Flag answers....

 

There will be qi deviations at some point during the process of training.

Maybe not this year maybe not in the next 5 or 6 but they will happen.

If you aren't ready to deal with it then something is wrong.

That means that there is something wrong with either the system or the teachers.

 

I recently talked via email with someone who can faqi and so can some of his students. The very first question i asked him was whether they had side effects of training. He said that they weren't and if there were he would be the first to notice them. I have been very cautious about his system ever since.

 

We also had a guy who ran a qi clinic in the UK and said that he had seen all kinds of qi deviations even from Baduanjin.

You are basically telling me in analogy that you never take fire suppressant measures in the building you are in because everyone knows how not to start a fire...... It doesn't work that way sorry.

[Master Logray]

9 hours ago, Zork said:

We also had a guy who ran a qi clinic in the UK and said that he had seen all kinds of qi deviations even from Baduanjin.

 

 

Normally the biggest risk of Baduanjin is twisting or not having effects

 

[小梦想]

On 3/30/2020 at 9:02 PM, S01000 said:

After years of seated meditation (and resultant emotional cleansing) I developed lots of energetic phenomenon and was unable to do sitting practice anymore because it led to irritability, insomnia, and more unpleasant energetic phenomenon.

You ever consider that your meditation isn't the reason this happened?

 

Lifestyle and diet will affect you way more than meditation will. All these recommendations won't do anything if you are eating the wrong thing, getting too little exercise, going bed past 11 every day, maybe even playing games for a few hours a day.

 

Maybe consider your lifestyle, and go see a TCM doctor, who can prescribe herbs to get rid of your internal heat and deal with your yin deficiency. You'll be surprised how quickly you feel better.

[Zork]

14 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

Normally the biggest risk of Baduanjin is twisting or not having effects

 

Qi deviations can happen in any form if no precautions are taken. I don't know how the baduanjin deviation happened but i assume that it was due to the shaking form done closely after consuming something or very vigorously.

[David Langford]

On 5/26/2020 at 11:44 PM, Zork said:

You just gave me one of the Red Flag answers....

 

There will be qi deviations at some point during the process of training.

Maybe not this year maybe not in the next 5 or 6 but they will happen.

If you aren't ready to deal with it then something is wrong.

That means that there is something wrong with either the system or the teachers.

 

I recently talked via email with someone who can faqi and so can some of his students. The very first question i asked him was whether they had side effects of training. He said that they weren't and if there were he would be the first to notice them. I have been very cautious about his system ever since.

 

We also had a guy who ran a qi clinic in the UK and said that he had seen all kinds of qi deviations even from Baduanjin.

You are basically telling me in analogy that you never take fire suppressant measures in the building you are in because everyone knows how not to start a fire...... It doesn't work that way sorry.

 

There are methods to slow down someone elses chi flow, to remove blockages, but we don't share them openly, and I've never seen anyone require their chi flow to be slowed down due to uncontrollable movements. It's a method that is typically used during healing sessions and chi transmission to non practitioners. Plus several of my fellow students and instructors I know are TCM doctors and know a whole lot more than me.  After 10+ years of practice now I can only go by my own experiences and observations. We use the chi flow itself to correct mistakes in practice. Smooth out any bumps. That's what makes it a lot safer than any system I had trained in previously. 

 

*Shrugs* Both sides have been expressed in this thread now. People can make up their own minds. 

Edited May 29, 2020 by David Langford

[Zork]

12 hours ago, David Langford said:

 

There are methods to slow down someone elses chi flow, to remove blockages, but we don't share them openly, and I've never seen anyone require their chi flow to be slowed down due to uncontrollable movements. It's a method that is typically used during healing sessions and chi transmission to non practitioners. Plus several of my fellow students and instructors I know are TCM doctors and know a whole lot more than me.  After 10+ years of practice now I can only go by my own experiences and observations. We use the chi flow itself to correct mistakes in practice. Smooth out any bumps. That's what makes it a lot safer than any system I had trained in previously. 

 

*Shrugs* Both sides have been expressed in this thread now. People can make up their own minds. 

First you deflect the question. Then you lie saying that you don't have a problem with qi deviations and now you say that you know how to do that. How do i know that you aren't lying again?

How hard is it to just say "We haven't had a case like that but we know how to handle it"?

That is the exact response i had from one teacher. But no, you had to underline how "awesome" your style is.....

[Cleansox]

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't there threads devoted to the dangers of overtraining on the Shaolin Wahnam site? 

And a standing recommendation not to practice more than 15 minutes? 

[Zork]

2 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't there threads devoted to the dangers of overtraining on the Shaolin Wahnam site? 

And a standing recommendation not to practice more than 15 minutes? 

It dawned to me yesterday that they might not even recognise qi deviations for what they are. Hence the incompatibility between views. I ran upon a thread on their site that describes deviations in senior students but they are called "deep cleansing" or "overtraining".

So Langford above could be honest and not lying at all but he doesn't know exactly what qi deviations are.