What is Taoism

[Maddie]

19 minutes ago, C T said:

 

speaking of avo on toast....  

 

 

That's it, my Tao is now Toast-ichi-do, the art of toast arranging. Universe prepare to have your secrets unlocked. 😌😇

[C T]

Unlocking the eternal secrets of Tao is not that mysterious or difficult, after all.. haha

 

btw, thats a poached egg on the top  

 

 

[Maddie]

8 minutes ago, C T said:

 

btw, thats a poached egg on the top  

 

 

 

I saw that...... Delightful 😉

[Maddie]

So I think as this thread progresses it's helping me to better define my question or at least the problem in my mind.

 When a word means everything then it effectively means nothing. I think the confusion with the word Tao is that it means the way. The way could be anything meaning everything therefore meaning nothing.

 It would seem that the only way to make this word mean something it's to limit it from what it does not mean. 

 So I guess if I was to rephrase my question I would ask what is not Taoism as opposed to what is.

[ReturnDragon]

51 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

So I guess if I was to rephrase my question I would ask what is not Taoism as opposed to what is.

You are not going to make it that easy for me! You should rephrase your question again to read:
What is not Tao as opposed to what is?

I can tell you what is not Taoism! Buddhism, Confucianism, Hinduism and Christianity are not Taoism.  

 

Edited April 3, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[ReturnDragon]

Tao Te Jing
Chapter 1 
1. 道可道，非常道。
2. 名可名，非常名。
3. 無，名天地之始。
4. 有，名萬物之母。
5. 故常無，欲以觀其妙。
6. 常有，欲以觀其徼。
7. 此兩者同出而異名，
8. 同謂之玄。玄之又玄，
9. 眾妙之門。

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.
4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.
6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

7. These two come from one origin but differ in name,
8. Both are regarded as unfathomable; the most occult and profound;
9. The gate of all changes.

FYI Chapter One of the Tao Te Jing is well defined of what Tao is.

[silent thunder]

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

When a word means everything then it effectively means nothing.

this...

 

Taoism is a word.  Words are mind stuff.

 

Tao is not a word, and never a thing... but it is what it is to each of us in our minds, while that has no bearing on actual Tao.

 

Can't be spoken of, yet invests all words and word making processes.

Gossamer, effervescent, inexhaustible, indefinable.

 

The moment we turn it into a word, or a mental notion... pfft... not tao.

[dawei]

I would say there is nothing that is not Dao... just that one Way may not be the same as another Way. 

[C T]

While all expedients, including and especially scriptures and texts, are found to be lacking ultimately, nonetheless their unique and universal functions  in enabling the fruitfulness/futileness of Tao should not be underestimated nor dismissed as not-Tao. It may well be frugal to lean in with the notion that experiential discoveries based on the teachings and guidance of masters may well uncover what the Tao is not -  and through a constant process of endless negations, one is likened to have arrived at the gate of the nondescript, although in truth, one's passive activity throughout remained only that of pursuing what is not Tao. Effectively, one has not impinged on Tao through active seeking, and can therefore be said to have 'done nothing'. 

[ReturnDragon]

Tao is before god which oversees the universe to assure nature has taken its course properly. However, Tao took no action to correct the errors made by nature. Indeed, Tao do not interfere with nature. This is one of the Tao principles which suggested to human to do the same: not to interfere with nature but just let it be.

[Maddie]

2 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

I can tell you what is not Taoism! Buddhism, Confucianism, Hinduism and Christianity are not Taoism.  

 

 

So while not Taoism these other religions are "a way" so are they not a Tao?

[Maddie]

2 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

Tao Te Jing
Chapter 1 
1. 道可道，非常道。
2. 名可名，非常名。
3. 無，名天地之始。
4. 有，名萬物之母。
5. 故常無，欲以觀其妙。
6. 常有，欲以觀其徼。
7. 此兩者同出而異名，
8. 同謂之玄。玄之又玄，
9. 眾妙之門。

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

3. Invisible was the name given to Tao at the origin of heaven and earth.
4. Visible was the name given to Tao as the mother of all things.

5. Hence, when Tao is always invisible, one would grok its quale.
6. When Tao is always visible, one would observe its boundary.

7. These two come from one origin but differ in name,
8. Both are regarded as unfathomable; the most occult and profound;
9. The gate of all changes.

FYI Chapter One of the Tao Te Jing is well defined of what Tao is.

 

To me chapter one makes it seem like defining Tao is impossible. 🤯

[ReturnDragon]

11 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

So while not Taoism these other religions are "a way" so are they not a Tao?

Tao is Tao. Tao cannot be defined or translated by one word. If Tao was defined as the principle, then it is the principle of Tao.Thus other religions have their own "way" of beliefs which can be said that is their principle of Tao. In other words, Tao is their principle of beliefs rather than the religion itself.

[ReturnDragon]

12 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

To me chapter one makes it seem like defining Tao is impossible. 🤯

That is correct. It is because Tao manifest itself in many forms and cannot be confined nor abide by one definition.

[Starjumper]

2 hours ago, dmattwads said:

To me chapter one makes it seem like defining Tao is impossible. 🤯

 

That was before I came along. i can define it for you.  Tao is the way the universe works.  Kind of like the laws of physics, but it goes beyond just physics.

 

Quote

I think the confusion with the word Tao is that it means the way. The way could be anything meaning everything therefore meaning nothing.

 

Tao is the way the universe works.  Way also means path, like the path that you take to get 'there'.

Edited April 3, 2020 by Starjumper

[Maddie]

32 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

That was before I came along. i can define it for you.  Tao is the way the universe works.  Kind of like the laws of physics, but it goes beyond just physics.

 

So I think using that as a frame of reference I'm going to try to frame this cosmologically rather than philosophically.

 

My understanding of Taoist cosmology is that Tao is the origin, then there was wuji or the "one" then yin yang or the "two" and so on and so forth.

 So I'm going to assume that whatever there was before the big bang or whatever there was that caused the big bang that is Tao. As well as the principles that continued to operate and form the universe after the big bang.

[Maddie]

1. Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
2. A name that can be named is not an eternal name.

 

Obviously explaining what Tao is, is problematic. 

[ReturnDragon]

7 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

So I'm going to assume that whatever there was before the big bang or whatever there was that caused the big bang that is Tao. As well as the principles that continued to operate and form the universe after the big bang

Chapter 4 - The Fathomless Tao.
1.道沖而用之或不盈。
2.淵兮似萬物之宗。
3.挫其銳
4.解其紛，
5.和其光，
6.同其塵，
7.湛兮似或存。
8.吾不知誰之子，
9.象帝之先。 

1. Tao is a vessel and its function seems inexhaustible. 
2. Abyss, aha! It seems like the ancestry of all things.
3/7. Fathomless, aha! Unconscious or conscious.
4/8. I don't know whose son he is,
5/9. It seems like before the heavenly god.

Note:
***** lines 3 through 6 seem to be out of context. They were reappeared in Chapter 56*****

[Maddie]

It's probably deserves its own thread and I don't want to get to off topic but.... 

 

Can Kung Fu forms be done as a type of Qi gong? Do they have that effect?

[ReturnDragon]

6 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

Can Kung Fu forms be done as a type of Qi gong? Do they have that effect?

Let's put it this way. Qigong practitioners may have the same effect as Kung Fu; but Kung Fu might not have to same effect as in Qigong practitioner. The reason is that a Kung Fu practitioner consumes lots of body energy as opposed to Qigong which preserves energy.
 

Edited April 3, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[Starjumper]

2 hours ago, dmattwads said:

 

So I think using that as a frame of reference I'm going to try to frame this cosmologically rather than philosophically.

 

My understanding of Taoist cosmology is that Tao is the origin, then there was wuji or the "one" then yin yang or the "two" and so on and so forth.

 So I'm going to assume that whatever there was before the big bang or whatever there was that caused the big bang that is Tao. As well as the principles that continued to operate and form the universe after the big bang.

 

Yes, I've thought of this as well.  You could say that the underlying operating instructions for the universe existed at the time of the big bang and that the big bang then represents the one.  When it cooled down it slowly evolved into the two, matter being yin and energy being yang.  After that those two interacted to form the ten thousand things.  Ten thousand means everything, or too much to count.

[Starjumper]

2 hours ago, dmattwads said:

It's probably deserves its own thread and I don't want to get to off topic but.... 

 

Can Kung Fu forms be done as a type of Qi gong? Do they have that effect?

 

Definitely, but if done very slowly and mindfully, with variations.  The slower you do it the more it makes it like zhan zhuang, and in the more advanced levels my chi kung is done very slowly.  One difference is that it should all be open hand, any chi kung done while making a fist is just some crude calisthenics.

Edited April 4, 2020 by Starjumper

[GSmaster]

2 hours ago, Starjumper said:

The slower you do it the more it makes it like zhan zhuang, and in the more advanced levels my chi kung is done very slowly.

 

yeah, one should spend some time in ZZ to get the proper qi flow before going into moving forms, they usually do the opposite

 

2 hours ago, Starjumper said:

One difference is that it should all be open hand, any chi kung done while making a fist is just some crude calisthenics.

 

its interesting if you can produce shockwave / strike with Qi, even without much force, open palm slap, but with condensed Qi you could probably make a lethal strike on some fake martial arts jerks like @Nungali

 

Can Imagine SJ slaps on the head of a fool, and his brain splashes around like a watermelon

Edited April 4, 2020 by GSmaster

[Starjumper]

15 minutes ago, GSmaster said:

it's interesting if you can produce shockwave / strike with Qi, even without much force, open palm slap, but with condensed Qi you could probably make a lethal strike on some fake martial arts jerk, like @Nungali.

 

Can Imagine SJ slaps on the head of a fool, and his brain splashes around like a watermelon

 

That's the idea, and why it's called an explosive strike.  This is one way: you put your fingertips on their body - softly - so they can't feel it, and send them a Jedi mind fuck to make them go soft, then the palm strike starts at the surface of the body and penetrates inwards an inch or two, with explosive force, to explode the organ of choice.

 

Here's a story - Once upon a time some young men were at a fair and were punching watermelons and smashing them.  A tai chi master walked up (old school, not new modern type), gave one of the watermelons a little slap, and it didn't break.  All the younger gentlemen started snickering and making little snide remarks.  Then tai chi master got out his pocket knife and cut a hole in the side of the watermelon, and the insides poured out like juice.  For some reason all the snickering suddenly stopped.  

[GSmaster]

8 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Then tai chi master got out his pocket knife and cut a hole in the side of the watermelon, and the insides poured out like juice.  For some reason all the snickering suddenly stopped.  

 

Yep. Transfer the force into a point or cause shockwave by spreading the concentrated damage into a whole area, like a domino effect.