What is Taoism

[Maddie]

59 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

. They are usually put off (often with good reason) by popular expressions of Christianity and want nothing that looks like that. They are inclined by culture and upbringing to think they are ready for the "serious" stuff and that devotion, piety, etc is for the peasants.

 

 

Yes that pretty much describes my journey especially at the beginning lol. 🤭

[SirPalomides]

47 minutes ago, Rara said:

 

Haha. To use the cliché, "It's all a part of the journey, maaaaan"

 

[C T]

Taoism encompasses the ways of heaven, earth and man. Its vast. Incomprehensibly vast. 

 

How much time have we got? 

 

Okay, I'll try to contribute what little I know... normally I wouldn't participate in this 'room' as its not my path, but like it or not, Taoism is very much part of my life since I grew up partially immersed in this tradition by way of my mother, her parents, and her ancestors, who are all identified as Taoists. What this means is that their lives very much evolved around Taoism in all its infinite expressions. This makes it quite difficult to define what exactly is a Taoist, and maybe, this is precisely the beauty and profoundness of the Way - its indefinable, yet it can be lived through one's beliefs, attitude, morals, ethics, principles and so on. 

 

In general, the householder type of Taoism respects individuality in all its forms, including individual quirks and fallibilities, and makes no demands on conformity, other than some very basic observations that are common to whichever sect one's ancestors are aligned with. And there's something like 35 main ones, plus many more sub-sects, within which will also have their own divisions and sub-divisions, and so on. Back then, any practitioner who attains proficiency in any particular aspect of Taoism will likely establish some sort of following - this is true to this day. So its really quite complex. Despite this complexity and diverse paths, they all converge at some level and share some common important beliefs, major gods and deities, observances of certain auspicious dates and events, rituals associated with such dates and events, and certain customs. 

 

If I were to ask my mother and her sibling what Taoism means to them subjectively, I know for a fact that their answer will differ quite remarkably. My mom might resonate with Quan Yin as her main object of veneration, whereas her sibling may well resonate with the Eight Immortals. But the altar in her sibling's home will likely sit an image of Quan Yin, and likewise, the altar in our home have some representation of the Eight Immortals. This is in addition to various other significant deities that most if not all Taoist households will have set up altars for. 

 

Taoism is widely practiced throughout Southeast Asia, and not just China. There are many authentic lineages scattered all over these parts. Some are highly ritualistic and conservative, others more laissez faire. Some focus on philosophy, while others concern themselves solely with the religious aspects of it. Out of all these arise unique variances in cultivation techniques - expressed through art, qi cultivation, TCM, meditation, ways of worship, dogma, moral and ethical studies, and philanthropy. 

 

Thats pretty much what my mind can handle for now lol. If you have questions, I'd be happy to answer what I can based on what I know first hand. 

 

 

[Maddie]

Thank you CT for that well written reply.

 

So I guess one of the important aspects getting a good answer is asking a good question. So I suppose backing up a little bit and reforming my question I would ask, what is the goal of Taoism?  

 

In Christianity the goal is to go to heaven and be with God as is the goal in Islam. In Buddhism and Hinduism the goal is liberation from Samsara. What is the goal in Taoism? I know some will say to obtain the Tao, but what does that mean?

[Miroku]

Nothing to add except for: damn this is a good thread. Please keep going I am learning so much from you.

[Rara]

26 minutes ago, C T said:

My mom might resonate with Quan Yin as her main object of veneration, whereas her sibling may well resonate with the Eight Immortals. But the altar in her sibling's home will likely sit an image of Quan Yin, and likewise, the altar in our home have some representation of the Eight Immortals. This is in addition to various other significant deities that most if not all Taoist households will have set up altars for. 

 

What's with the switch around? Is that to sigify the bond between them?

 

26 minutes ago, C T said:

Out of all these arise unique variances in cultivation techniques - expressed through art, qi cultivation, TCM, meditation, ways of worship, dogma, moral and ethical studies, and philanthropy. 

 

This is important. For me, I am on the martial route. I burn incense for direct relatives but I do not worship. Shifu told me that one was not important for me.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Rara

[C T]

7 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

Thank you CT for that well written reply.

 

So I guess one of the important aspects getting a good answer is asking a good question. So I suppose backing up a little bit and reforming my question I would ask, what is the goal of Taoism?  

 

In Christianity the goal is to go to heaven and be with God as is the goal in Islam. In Buddhism and Hinduism the goal is liberation from Samsara. What is the goal in Taoism? I know some will say to obtain the Tao, but what does that mean?

 

No worries, yvw.  

 

Others may well provide different perspectives based on their own understanding, and I will do likewise. 

 

In its most idealistic expression, I'd say that most Asian Taoists (the masses) would aim for an auspicious rebirth thru their piety and close adherence to what they individually conceptualise to be divine guidance that leads to that fruition, while more than most Western practitioners would be unabashedly pivoting for immortality. 

 

 

[C T]

36 minutes ago, Rara said:

 

What's with the switch around? Is that to sigify the bond between them?

 

 

This is important. For me, I am on the martial route. I burn incense for direct relatives but I do not worship. Shifu told me that one was not important for me.

 

Its not so much a switch around, but more about resonation. This resonation comes about mainly through one's fundamental leanings - for example, one who's highly materialistic, or involved in commerce & business would venerate all the deities associated with good fortune & wealth; another who may be a cop, in the armed forces, security sector, or in the triads, may likely have Guan Yu as their main object of veneration; one who is compassionate and values kindness will venerate Guan Yin - but at the same time, they are respectful of all the other major gods and deities in the hierarchy. Most Asian Taoist homes will have images/representations of Guan Yin and one form or another of a buddha (Shakyamuni in some households, mine being one) as the main objects of veneration, and also will tend to have on the same altar the Jade emperor, the gods of prosperity & longevity, followed by Zaoshen, the kitchen goddess; the earth protector deity whose seat is on the floor directly beneath the main altar, and also a small shrine in the garden for the lord of the heavens. 

Edited April 1, 2020 by C T

[silent thunder]

Wang Liping talked about three types of Taoists at our retreat.

 

Mountain recluses.  Full time and solitary (tiny social interaction).

Temple Taoists.  Full time dedicated to temple and partly social, no family obligations.

Family Taoists.  Part time, due to social and family obligations and dedications.

[SirPalomides]

15 minutes ago, C T said:

 

No worries, yvw.  

 

Others may well provide different perspectives based on their own understanding, and I will do likewise. 

 

In its most idealistic expression, I'd say that most Asian Taoists (the masses) would aim for an auspicious rebirth thru their piety and close adherence to what they individually conceptualise to be divine guidance that leads to that fruition, while more than most Western practitioners would be unabashedly pivoting for immortality. 

 

 

 

Right, the big goals would be a good rebirth and eventually immortality. Immortality has a lot of different meanings. Images of carefree wandering through clouds and mountains are common, as well as dwelling in heaven or a paradise like in Kunlun. Sometimes it is couched in terms similar to Buddhist liberation or the Bodhisattva ideal. The Confucian language of a sage who assists heaven and earth in their creativity has some connection too.

 

There are modest temporal goals like longevity, or having a happy healthy family, or good job.

 

Something that seems to have completely receded is the apocalyptic utopianism of some early Daoists like the Heavenly Masters, but that was a thing once.

[Maddie]

36 minutes ago, Rara said:

For me, I am on the martial route.

 

Would you mind elaborating on this please? 

[Maddie]

5 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

 

Right, the big goals would be a good rebirth and eventually immortality. Immortality has a lot of different meanings. Images of carefree wandering through clouds and mountains are common, as well as dwelling in heaven or a paradise like in Kunlun. Sometimes it is couched in terms similar to Buddhist liberation or the Bodhisattva ideal. The Confucian language of a sage who assists heaven and earth in their creativity has some connection too.

 

There are modest temporal goals like longevity, or having a happy healthy family, or good job.

 

Something that seems to have completely receded is the apocalyptic utopianism of some early Daoists like the Heavenly Masters, but that was a thing once.

 

 

I'm going to assume there are multiple methods and routes for an auspicious rebirth or immortality? Is it similar to Buddhism as in making good karma to have a good rebirth? Or letting go of attachment for liberation in regards to immortality?

[SirPalomides]

4 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

 

 

I'm going to assume there are multiple methods and routes for an auspicious rebirth or immortality? Is it similar to Buddhism as in making good karma to have a good rebirth? Or letting go of attachment for liberation in regards to immortality?

 

Yes. In terms of printings and distribution, the single most popular Daoist text would be the Tai Shang Gan Ying Pian, a morality text attributed to the deified Laozi. You can read a translation here. Basically, do x deeds and avoid y, accumulate good karma, eventually become immortal. And here's an amateur translation I did of another morality tract, the Divine Lord Wenchang's Essay on Hidden Kindness:

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by SirPalomides

[doc benway]

It's wonderful to see all of the different opinions and experiences shared here.

 

In my opinion, Daoism is flexible enough to embrace and support all of us and our various proclivities and opportunities. For the peasant in the fields (or nowadays worker in a factory) who has neither time, education, or opportunity, there can be simple religious rituals, beliefs, and prayers offering profound support. For the intellectual, Daoism provides a philosophical and scientific framework that is extraordinarily sophisticated and comprehensive. For those suited to physical training, there are wonderful practices and methods; and for those more suited to inward investigation, superb methods of inner work. Not unlike Buddhism, where there are '84,000' teachings to address all possible needs, Daoism lacks nothing and can provide anyone with support and guidance. 

 

My own teacher is from Taiwan and identifies as Daoist. He spent the majority of his life as a practitioner and teacher of martial arts and is strongly devoted to the deities and rituals associated with martial arts and his martial and meditation lineages. He utilizes methods of divination and geomancy when called for and is even a bit superstitious. He is very proud of his Daoist heritage and considers the highest possible objective of a Daoist to be personal transformation through inner work. He has little interest in philosophy and little regard for those who focus on theory over experiential practices. 

 

Consequently, my own approach to Daoism has been primarily experiential, meditation being my primary connection. Other practices are very supportive - taijiquan, xingyiquan, baguazhang, and qigong; but secondary. I have very little connection to or interest in theory, religious ritual, geomancy, divination, etc.. Not saying this is better or worse, good or bad, just how I have happened to connect based on my personal proclivities and opportunity. The beauty of Daoism for me is that through personal practice the labels and definitions of Daoism fall away and dissolve into truth, and that truth is not distinct from the truth pointed to by other Daoist paths or unrelated traditions. 

 

[Maddie]

Very nice reply Steve. 

[ReturnDragon]

2 hours ago, dmattwads said:

What is the goal in Taoism? I know some will say to obtain the Tao, but what does that mean?

The goal of Taoism is to integrate oneself in harmony with nature. Do not interrupt nature but let nature take its course.

[Rara]

2 hours ago, C T said:

 

Its not so much a switch around, but more about resonation. This resonation comes about mainly through one's fundamental leanings - for example, one who's highly materialistic, or involved in commerce & business would venerate all the deities associated with good fortune & wealth; another who may be a cop, in the armed forces, security sector, or in the triads, may likely have Guan Yu as their main object of veneration; one who is compassionate and values kindness will venerate Guan Yin - but at the same time, they are respectful of all the other major gods and deities in the hierarchy. Most Asian Taoist homes will have images/representations of Guan Yin and one form or another of a buddha (Shakyamuni in some households, mine being one) as the main objects of veneration, and also will tend to have on the same altar the Jade emperor, the gods of prosperity & longevity, followed by Zaoshen, the kitchen goddess; the earth protector deity whose seat is on the floor directly beneath the main altar, and also a small shrine in the garden for the lord of the heavens. 

 

Bless Guan Yin. And I have a mini Buddha, but that's it on the ornament side. I lost a lot of things years ago when I had to leave my home, which I recently returned back to.

 

A friend of mine said that ornaments of Laozi we close to impossible, but sometimes pictures are used.

 

He was born into Daoism, or something that he refered to as tri-dharma. Hence the many deities.

[ReturnDragon]

On 3/30/2020 at 10:43 AM, dmattwads said:

 A lot of things that I used to assume were Taoist I have come to find did not originate with Taoism, but rather a lot of it is from Chinese folk religion or has been integrated from other systems. Such as many of the gods and goddesses come from Chinese folk religion. The concept of yin and Yang and the five elements come from the naturalistic school. The I-ching predates taoism by quite a bit. 

Here is the sequence of event:
Yin-yang --- Yi Jing -- Tao Te Ching -- Tao Principles -- Taoist Religion -- Individual Cultivation of Tao(principle). 

Taoism is a western term which obfuscate with scholarly study of Tao principle and the Tao religion.
In Chinese philosophy, there are two distinctions:
1.  道學(Tao xue): the study of Tao principle.
2. 道教(Tao jiao): The Taoist religion cult.

[Rara]

2 hours ago, dmattwads said:

 

Would you mind elaborating on this please? 

 

Sure. So in this lifetime, we can't do everything. My gateway into Daoist life came from gongfu and  when I try to divert to more, monkish ways, or to find monastaries, I seem to get spat back out into martial arts practices.

 

I've found that the teachers that "find me" are now taiji. Temples are pit-stops, then it's back to training.

[Maddie]

The replies have been great. They have led me to ask a question that is more of a survey. How do you all actually practice Tao? What specific methods do you use? Qigong? Martial arts? Study? Ceremonies? Art? Other?

[silent thunder]

My intro was in Philosophy, early teens.

Then I met my first teacher and saturated in martial aspects teens through early 30's.

 

While processing being crippled for a few years, my focus turned inward, when the external praxis was not possible.  This was transformational and such a gift in hindsight, I'm profoundly grateful for not being able to walk for a couple years.  When I returned to full mobility after recovery, it was revealed that the forms were superficial, compared to the internal.

 

For the years I was crippled, I would run the forms mentally as a method of dealing with chronic pain without resorting to pills or pain killers of any kind.  This work rewired my entire frame of physical manifesation and the echo between mind and body became a locus of holographic reflection that brought full recovery but catapulted me into internal work.  This was utterly transformative.  The most challenging and rewarding gift of my life, aside from my son.

 

The inward turn infused, saturated and affected all other aspects of life, transforming my paradigm of reality through exposure to methods and several lineage teachers, Richard Huang/Larry Tan, Wang Liping, Zhou Ting-Jue.

 

I'm no longer any type of 'ism'.  Outward forms are all encountered as potent, but very vapourous in nature.

 

I am a man flowing in the universe as i am.  isms are quaint mental notions of reflections of reality, but do not hold much depth of reality... sort of akin to how the picture of a sandwich on a menu will communicate an idea, but not provide nourishment.

 

Though some rituals have arisen naturally and could be said to be flavored with taoist/chen flavors, my connection to life is a constant flow of rise and fall... effortless wei wu wei is the order of being.

 

Do without forcing.  Open to the flows about and within.

 

As Above, So Below.  As Within, Without.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by silent thunder

[doc benway]

8 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

The replies have been great. They have led me to ask a question that is more of a survey. How do you all actually practice Tao? What specific methods do you use? Qigong? Martial arts? Study? Ceremonies? Art? Other?

 

Meditation, both formal and in day to day activity

Qigong

Internal martial arts

[ReturnDragon]

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

How do you all actually practice Tao? What specific methods do you use? Qigong? Martial arts? Study? Ceremonies? Art? Other?

If I follow the principle of Tao, I would integrate myself in harmony with nature. It is because nature have given me all the natural sources to preserve life. I will take advantage to use these sources, by all means, to have a state of homeostasis. Taiji is the best method of Qigong. I would practice Taiji for life to have a healthy body which I have been doing it for years. The drastic change in my body,  biologically and physically, is very noticeable. The best of all about Taiji, the martial arts came with the package in the practice; but it is optional for the practitioner to be considered it as martial arts or not. If not, just do it for health sake.

Study the principle would help to understand and appreciate the practice more. Instead of practicing, blindly, was because of somebody said it is good. 
 

Edited April 1, 2020 by ReturnDragon
Change "sources" to "resources" Never mind!

[Rara]

2 hours ago, dmattwads said:

The replies have been great. They have led me to ask a question that is more of a survey. How do you all actually practice Tao? What specific methods do you use? Qigong? Martial arts? Study? Ceremonies? Art? Other?

 

First of all, the three basics good food, sleep and being calm. Without good general health, we cannot cultivate successfully.

 

Try and remain relaxed but sharp during the day at work. Smile - people out there are angry but a good energy will benefit all.

 

My personal practice is taiji, qigong and core strength training. Before, it was full contact martial arts but I'm shifting now as age is kicking in, and my need to be "boysterous" is declining.

 

Oh, and yes, guitar playing, singing, and cooking. I like to let my spirit free.

[Maddie]

As a further follow up question which I realize is very subjective, what are everyone's favorite styles of Qigong and why do you like the one you do?