Limits of the meridians ? Limits of qi flow in body ?

[waterdrop]

*every info someone wants to add to this subject the better  - some questions i have :

1 .  The more flow in the body the better  ?   

2 .  Do the meridians expand the more there is more flow  or you expand your meridians and than more flow is going through them ?  do you need to maintain them by always pumping more qi through them or else they will close ?

3 .  Do the meridians expand  ( i read recently they expand somewhere so i wonder how big can they get ?  do they expand out of the body ?  do they push each other ? cause some  are pretty close together)   ....   or the difference is just in the volume of qi flowing thorugh the same size meridians ?   do you just release blockages inside the meridians more and more until they are smooth as much as possible ?   

 

[freeform]

19 hours ago, waterdrop said:

1 .  The more flow in the body the better  ?

 

Overall yes.

 

19 hours ago, waterdrop said:

2 .  Do the meridians expand the more there is more flow  or you expand your meridians and than more flow is going through them ?  do you need to maintain them by always pumping more qi through them or else they will close ?

 

You shouldn't be doing anything with the Qi directly. You need to follow the correct method and these things will happen of their own accord.

 

Building the foundation in Qigong involves building the physical body through standing, stretching and releasing as well as moving. This will create both more conductivity through your channels and the channels will get bigger and change the shape of your body physically.

 

20 hours ago, waterdrop said:

3 .  Do the meridians expand  ( i read recently they expand somewhere so i wonder how big can they get ?  do they expand out of the body ?  do they push each other ? cause some  are pretty close together)   ....   or the difference is just in the volume of qi flowing thorugh the same size meridians ?   do you just release blockages inside the meridians more and more until they are smooth as much as possible ?   

 

'Meridians' from a Chinese MEdicine perspective are slightly different to the channels from a qigong perspective. Yes they get bigger, yes you need to clear blockages and increase conductivity and yes you need a bigger volume of Qi. So all of the above

 

But all of this is achieved through the practices your teachers give you (if your teachers know what they're doing). This isn't something you need to work out and govern with your willful action.

 

Physical changes in your channel takes years to achieve. Just as it takes years to build the kind of body that would be good at BJJ or hockey or swimming for example.

[waterdrop]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

You shouldn't be doing anything with the Qi directly. You need to follow the correct method and these things will happen of their own accord.

 

i was thinking for example about visulization exercises  where you imagine qi going up and down the body (and outside the body)  and it is said to be an exercise to make more qi flow through the channels

how big can this channels get ?   dont they clash with each other at some point ?



 

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

i was thinking for example about visulization exercises  where you imagine qi going up and down the body (and outside the body)  and it is said to be an exercise to make more qi flow through the channels

 

In genuine Qi Gong and Daoist internal arts, we (almost) never use visualization to move Qi... So if you've come across a teacher that uses visualization as a major component of Qi Gong, then you can be sure that this is not authentic.

 

6 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

how big can this channels get ?

 

Well depends on your practice. In Taiji, for example, your entire body becomes one big channel

 

7 minutes ago, waterdrop said:

dont they clash with each other at some point ?

 

Clashes happen from trying to move Qi with your mind. By focusing intently as a major part of your practice. By visualization or just mentally moving your focus of awareness around. That's where issues can arise.

 

 

 

[waterdrop]

Well i started by learning zhineng qigong from a teacher that follows mingtungu  who teaches with visualaztion  -  i was never good at it  than i went to learn zhineng qigong in china and its with no visulization and it was better  - but now i read about reality transurfing (which is indeed not qigong) and they have a few visulaiztion exercises there and it does seem it can work    (my practice at the moment is spontaniues qigong,meditation,reberthing)     (  !!   but i dont want to talk about myself or my practice cause that always derails the thread  and makes ingormation that could be told  not be told !!! )        cause by that pratcie you visualize qi going up the spine and qi going down a bit infront of it  and its supose to widen the channels  by moving the qi in them  it seems  , you dont think that works ?
 

Quote

Well depends on your practice. In Taiji, for example, your entire body becomes one big channel

can you expand on that ?   i get in general that the body is made of qi  -  what do you mean the body becomes one big channel  -  is it in the end stage after years of practice ,  or is it just the way of practice from the start ?    seems better to do that be one big channel than just some in parts of the body no ? 

[freeform]

16 hours ago, waterdrop said:

cause by that pratcie you visualize qi going up the spine and qi going down a bit infront of it  and its supose to widen the channels  by moving the qi in them  it seems  , you dont think that works ?

Visualization only moves your ‘existing Qi’... meaning it’s at a shallow level. Like if someone touches the back of your hand with a finger and holds it there, your attention and in turn Qi will start to concentrate there at the level of the nerves. Visualization, in some people can do the same. But this is not the Qi of Qigong... it’s not able to transform - but it could maybe be used for healing.

 

Think of the volume of water the tides in the ocean move vs the volume of water we can move with a bucket or even a big tanker. It’s incomparable - even though yes, some Qi is moved in both cases.

 

The Qi of Qigong moves by having a correct structure (from years of practice) and then letting go. Only through letting go do any profound transformations take place. Visualization and imagination is the opposite of letting go.

 

16 hours ago, waterdrop said:

 

Quote

Well depends on your practice. In Taiji, for example, your entire body becomes one big channel

can you expand on that ?   i get in general that the body is made of qi  -  what do you mean the body becomes one big channel  -  is it in the end stage after years of practice ,  or is it just the way of practice from the start ?    seems better to do that be one big channel than just some in parts of the body no ? 

Sure. Yes it is an ‘end stage’ - or rather a very advanced stage (almost impossible to get to stage 😃).
 

It means your entire body becomes a transmitter... rather than lines moving through the body.

 

An analogy would be:

 

untrained person: your hand is your hand and is relatively unconnected with the rest of your body.

 

Well trained Taiji player: the hand is connected through lines running within the body to the ground. As you push against their hand, your force travels through the connected lines in the body and eventually meets the ground. When they push, similarly the force travels through the channels.

 

super advanced: the hand is the ground. And not only the hand... any part of the body... also not just ‘the ground’ - but anything this advanced student wishes it to be - it could be hard and unyielding like the ground or transient and not really there like a cloud. This is so immediately on contact - there is no force travelling through anything - it’s right there on contact. This is the very beginnings of whole body as a channel.
 

There’s no better or worse... it just depends on your aims. You don’t need to develop your whole body into a channel if your aim is a spiritual one. Your time would be better used elsewhere.

[GSmaster]

24 minutes ago, freeform said:

Visualization only moves your ‘existing Qi’... meaning it’s at a shallow level. Like if someone touches the back of your hand with a finger and holds it there, your attention and in turn Qi will start to concentrate there at the level of the nerves.

 

Visualization, in some people can do the same. But this is not the Qi of Qigong... it’s not able to transform - but it could maybe be used for healing.

 

Interesting.

 

But as a matter of control of the existing Qi it would be possible to make some delicate or rather complex influences on other people, so it could be used for healing purpose.

 

 

Edited April 4, 2020 by GSmaster

[freeform]

42 minutes ago, GSmaster said:

Interesting.

 

But as a matter of control of the existing Qi it would be possible to make some delicate or rather complex influences on other people, so it could be used for healing purpose.

from my experience this sort of thing happens at the level of Shen rather than Qi...

 

It’s usually a sensitive person picking up on your intent and surrendering to the influence.

 

But there are certainly exceptions.
 

For example Reiki does achieve a low level Qi transfer very quickly... although there is almost always a two-way transfer of pathogenic Qi too. (Meaning be careful of sick people doing reiki on you and visa-versa.) 

 

But I think Reiki works at Shen level (spirit-contract - like how fu and talismans work) to achieve this transfer. Along the lines of sorcery.

 

Wei Qi Liao Fa - traditional healing through Qi emission should only be done when your body is so full of Qi that it overflows - and you use the overflow to heal. If you squeeze Qi out, over time you’ll get ill and it will change your mental quality.

 

Qi emitted through wei Qi Liao fa is often quite different - very strong and often painful and causes spasms and so on

 

 

Sometimes much more gentle - but almost always causing some spontaneous movements:

 

 

Edited April 4, 2020 by freeform

[senseless virtue]

On 4/4/2020 at 3:01 PM, freeform said:

For example Reiki does achieve a low level Qi transfer very quickly... although there is almost always a two-way transfer of pathogenic Qi too. (Meaning be careful of sick people doing reiki on you and visa-versa.)

 

Reiki could be some type of tantric art that requires many levels of initiation for full transmission. Otherwise the art and effects will remain incomplete and diluted.

 

There has been discussion, most likely somewhere on this board, that many modern Reiki lineages have access only to foundational initiations which makes their work insidiously unhealthy like you implied. It's a typical fall from grace story featuring New Age people who wanted to become master healers right away and save the planet as soon as possible.

Edited August 7, 2023 by senseless virtue
my words originally had too much certainty

[freeform]

14 minutes ago, virtue said:

Reiki is basically some type of tantric art that requires many levels of initiation for full transmission.

Thanks. Yeah the initiation aspect suggests to me that the skill is gained at the shen level. Like an empowerment for a mantra... the mantra can affect your Qi but the reason it works is established at the shen level.

 

Wei Qi Liao Fa works at a much more mechanistic level - no empowerments, initiations or spiritual contracts - just basically having a ton of excess Qi that can be used to heal others.

 

 

[GSmaster]

35 minutes ago, virtue said:

Reiki is basically some type of tantric art that requires many levels of initiation for full transmission.

 

There is a guy who mixed reiki transmission technology with yoga / daoism / magic. And they transmit everything. There are transmissions for health, for energy protection, to clean space around you like fenshui, for business, for luck and e.t.c

 

It is just a means to send energy into some sort of intent / spell.

 

A much simplified version of internal arts that is avaiable for anyone and everyone with as little training / or changing oneself as possible. 

 

16 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yeah the initiation aspect suggests to me that the skill is gained at the shen level.

 

Must be on surface level.

It seems to work like talismans, and they borrow ability from the egregorial system. As the system works in give and take, you get as much as you spend inside, and just redirect that energy on particular wish or goal. So the effects could be rather weak, and practice is more like a mindless grind, the more you grind = the more effects you may get.. Without any internal changes / transforming oneself.

 

It is quite popular though.

Edited April 4, 2020 by GSmaster

[GSmaster]

With internal transformation whenever its spirit or body, you are bound to experience pain and discomfort.

Which is not something that is favorable by masses, or something that people would want to pay money for.

[senseless virtue]

On 4/4/2020 at 3:51 PM, GSmaster said:

Must be on surface level. I have never seen anyone in reiki tradition to gain a permanent or significant internal transformation.

 

I have read claims Reiki originally comes from Linji Ch'an (Rinzai Zen) tradition. It's supposed to be used as an esoteric adjunct to Buddhist meditation which in Mahayana has different outlook than dabbling with energy, but unfortunately much of it has been in decline.

 

On 4/4/2020 at 3:51 PM, GSmaster said:

It seems to work like talismans, and they borrow ability from the egregorial system.

 

Wrong. All tantric methods work by getting empowerment from Buddhas.

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by senseless virtue

[waterdrop]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Visualization only moves your ‘existing Qi’... meaning it’s at a shallow level. Like if someone touches the back of your hand with a finger and holds it there, your attention and in turn Qi will start to concentrate there at the level of the nerves. Visualization, in some people can do the same. But this is not the Qi of Qigong... it’s not able to transform - but it could maybe be used for healing.

 

Think of the volume of water the tides in the ocean move vs the volume of water we can move with a bucket or even a big tanker. It’s incomparable - even though yes, some Qi is moved in both cases.

 

The Qi of Qigong moves by having a correct structure (from years of practice) and then letting go. Only through letting go do any profound transformations take place. Visualization and imagination is the opposite of letting go.

 

 

Great answers freeform 

I practice now sponatinues qigong  as adviced by my meditation teacher    -  what are your thoughts about it in light of the stuff you wrote ?    is it using the whole body as a channel ? or just the channels ?  

it’s not able to transform.................  what do you mean by transform ?

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

But I think Reiki works at Shen level (spirit-contract - like how fu and talismans work) to achieve this transfer. Along the lines of sorcery.

 

Wei Qi Liao Fa - traditional healing through Qi emission should only be done when your body is so full of Qi that it overflows - and you use the overflow to heal. If you squeeze Qi out, over time you’ll get ill and it will change your mental quality.

 

Qi emitted through wei Qi Liao fa is often quite different - very strong and often painful and causes spasms and so on

 

What would you call it if you can use chi to move yourself, like pushing against empty space to move yourself    Not that it matters what you call it.  Maybe I'll make a video, then some will call it fake.

[GSmaster]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

What would you call it if you can use chi to move yourself, like pushing against empty space to move yourself    Not that it matters what you call it.  Maybe I'll make a video, then some will call it fake.

 

Waving of physical body happens often from Qi. Qi has mass and so it affects the center of gravity

 

Next is the pull of power itself, lately between hands what I feel is water jets, it is quite dense and hard, similar to putting a hand under the water stream.

 

Also I had experience when I worked with blockages in chakras, especially manipura, the whole body jerks / convulses quite hard and unpredictable when you start moving it / dissolving.

 

Quote

some will call it fake.

 

Sure they will. Also Qi is fake. It does not exist.

And your level is judged by how nice you are to a certain monkeys.

Edited April 4, 2020 by GSmaster

[Goku76]

@freeform When you mentioned that using visualization to move chi is the opposite of letting go, basically when you do any kind of qigong exercise you should just focus on the breathing into the dantien, and just let the energy do whatever it wants. Only because in Falun Dafa there's an exercise where you focus on the energy going down after the heavenly circuit. So does that mean that I should not focus on it going down or is it different in this case?

[Sramana]

4 hours ago, GSmaster said:

 

Interesting.

 

But as a matter of control of the existing Qi it would be possible to make some delicate or rather complex influences on other people, so it could be used for healing purpose.

 

 

 

How would you know?  You are obviously the opposite of a healer.

[freeform]

4 hours ago, GSmaster said:

A much simplified version of internal arts that is avaiable for anyone and everyone with as little training / or changing oneself as possible

Sounds pretty ideal!  But I’m pretty skeptical about modern systems!

 

4 hours ago, waterdrop said:

I practice now sponatinues qigong  as adviced by my meditation teacher    -  what are your thoughts about it in light of the stuff you wrote ?    is it using the whole body as a channel ? or just the channels ?  

Yes spontaneous qigong (Zi Fa Gong) is a very powerful process that is great at clearing, purging and transforming of your body, mind and emotions. It works on the channel level. It doesn’t ‘build’ - you won’t be building your ‘internal’ body or generating Qi - but it does clear and smooth things out which helps your body work more efficiently. 
 

There is an end point to it though. It’s easy to get addicted to. Your teacher needs to be able to see it’s effect on you and assist you to move through the process as quick as possible.

 

Transformation is change - from one thing to another.

 

4 hours ago, Starjumper said:

What would you call it if you can use chi to move yourself, like pushing against empty space to move yourself  

If I understand you correctly, I’d call that ‘internal movement’. Meaning you use something other than the normal muscular system. That’s the correct way to move your body in the Daoist internal arts. For example many people in early stages find that their arms float up by themselves during qigong - that’s an aspect of internal movement. But also considered an error - you must move past floating. It’s usually the first sense people get that there is another way that your body can move - and it feels great

 

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Goku76 said:

@freeform When you mentioned that using visualization to move chi is the opposite of letting go, basically when you do any kind of qigong exercise you should just focus on the breathing into the dantien, and just let the energy do whatever it wants. Only because in Falun Dafa there's an exercise where you focus on the energy going down after the heavenly circuit. So does that mean that I should not focus on it going down or is it different in this case?

Well the focus will be different for each exercise. Also in the beginning your focus is on getting it right - on the details of the posture on the sensations in your body, on trying to let go and release tension etc.

Some exercises will use your Yi or intent to direct your mind - whether to your breath or to the Dantien etc.

 

In your Falun Gong exercise focusing on energy going down is not visualisation or imagination. I suspect they mean ‘sink the Qi’ which sounds simple, but is very tricky. You sink Qi by letting go and releasing your mind and it will start to settle and then sink by itself. Simply moving your internal focus downwards won’t actually sink your Qi.

 

You must do what the exercise calls for. If the exercise calls for extensive visualisation (particularly of Qi movement), I’d argue that the source of the exercises may not be authentic.

[mrpasserby]

In my experience: as your spirit becomes functional, gets powered up and begins to move independent of the physical self, then at times the body will attempt to tag along causing a floating feeling.

[waterdrop]

Quote

There is an end point to it though

what do you mean ?

[waterdrop]

Quote

It doesn’t ‘build’ - you won’t be building your ‘internal’ body or generating Qi - but it does clear and smooth things out which helps your body work more efficiently. 

I am looking for motivation to practice it more  -   and the end point thing you wrote and this   seems like its not that great without that great results

can it help increase the flow of qi in the body ?  and to feel it better ?  sounds from what you say that other methods are better  maybe like zhineng qigong ?                                         

    (         i am aware of the warning you shouldnt practice it without a teacher  - my meditaiton teacher just told me to do it with no instructions  - but i report to him on my life in general and my practice and i trust him 100%    -   but i am really unsure about the benefits of it  and i really have a hard time practicing it  cause of it even though its more "easy" and "fun"  to me than  zhineng qigong )

Edited April 4, 2020 by waterdrop

[ReturnDragon]

Something we should know before we go any further.
Ref: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5908427/

[Earl Grey]

Something we should be reminded of before we go any further: