Taiji fights

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

 

 

 

 

So much of this is familiar with what I practice , but mine isnt known as Tai Chi .

 

I'd love to analyse this more  but dont want to derail further .  Earl, could you move these to a new thread for discussion ?

 

Cloud Hands , I have some experience in what you asked about , but cant really describe what I did as 'Tai Chi' . My situation was, I was on a forest protest and we got invaded by a bunch of redneck drunks from one direction and a bunch of loggers from the other .

 

What stood out for me in this thread , in relation to that was what Earl Grey said   ;   "There's a certain point that all your skills become one and it's hard to see where one style ends and another begins. "

 

 and also your ; 

 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, CloudHands said:

 

....l. I took the pipa stance (taiji chuan) aaaand... jumped to to guy's head grabbed it and hit it twice with my knee (not so taiji... but efficient enough)

 

yes,  it was 'sufficient enough'   but also , not so tai chi   ( depending on one's definition - is ducking under a wild swinging punch and going into a low front stance while you elbow someone in Solar Plexus with full body rotation Tai Chi ?   If so, the 'effects' where  a series of expanding concentric shock waves going trough the guys blubber, originating on the strike zone, a shocked look on his face  , then I existed left off side to avod any vomit that might fountain out  - none did - a general wobbling  followed by a collapse on to his knees .  ) .  I suppose overall, the more   tai chi like  stuff was during melee and close quarters  ( the other stuff I did wasnt really tai chi like )   where I was able to push and fling  and throw mostly by staying low and adapting to what was coming at me ... melting out the way, turning etc . I domt have the tai chi terminology to describe what happened there .  But the most effective of techniques where  'taking advantage of what is offered to you ' .

 

Then I saw 3 rednecks wailing on this one guy, well, thats a bit unfair ,  so went to help him, pulling guys off   (one by his neck tendons     ) , which made more come in and try to jump me , it got more like aikido then .  next thing I knew I am now back to back with this guy I helped. covering each other, then it sorta went to boxing , after we cleaned them up ( he was pretty good too ! )  I realised  he was a Police rescue guy , white overalls with Police insignia ... I had been fighting alongside the police as the drunken rednecks attacked them, without me knowing it  !     

 

So they got arrested and I didnt .    Ha har!

 

In short , Tai chi techniques can be very effective , if you know when and how to use them properly in a fight situation , but one should not be restricted to one 'style', unless its a good one and  has all sorts of different stuff under one name.  

 

I trained with a guy recently  that did tai chi for years , he was absolutely hopeless in an application situation, I could push him over with one hand . I asked and he admitted he had never felt the 'pressure' of anything against his techniques but air .  The I did all this stuff to him as he tried different attacks a lot of it I could show him where in some of the moves he actually did himself in practising his solo form . 

 

Another guy who is in my club is a tai chi instructor , he can well hold his own with me and the instructor , he knows the applications and knows how to fight ... I am respectfully wary of him 

 

So I dont feel it is actually the 'Tai Chi '  at question here , more the 'Tai Chi practitioner' .

[Earl Grey]

25 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

So much of this is familiar with what I practice , but mine isnt known as Tai Chi .

 

I'd love to analyse this more  but dont want to derail further .  Earl, could you move these to a new thread for discussion ?

 

Cloud Hands , I have some experience in what you asked about , but cant really describe what I did as 'Tai Chi' . My situation was, I was on a forest protest and we got invaded by a bunch of redneck drunks from one direction and a bunch of loggers from the other .

 

What stood out for me in this thread , in relation to that was what Earl Grey said   ;   "There's a certain point that all your skills become one and it's hard to see where one style ends and another begins. "

 

 and also your ; 

 

 

 

Yes, I'll create a new thread for us a little later.  

[CloudHands]

20 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

yes,  it was 'sufficient enough'   but also , not so tai chi   ( depending on one's definition - is ducking under a wild swinging punch and going into a low front stance while you elbow someone in Solar Plexus with full body rotation Tai Chi ?   If so, the 'effects' where  a series of expanding concentric shock waves going trough the guys blubber, originating on the strike zone, a shocked look on his face  , then I existed left off side to avod any vomit that might fountain out  - none did - a general wobbling  followed by a collapse on to his knees .  ) .  I suppose overall, the more   tai chi like  stuff was during melee and close quarters  ( the other stuff I did wasnt really tai chi like )   where I was able to push and fling  and throw mostly by staying low and adapting to what was coming at me ... melting out the way, turning etc . I domt have the tai chi terminology to describe what happened there .  But the most effective of techniques where  'taking advantage of what is offered to you ' .

 

Then I saw 3 rednecks wailing on this one guy, well, thats a bit unfair ,  so went to help him, pulling guys off   (one by his neck tendons     ) , which made more come in and try to jump me , it got more like aikido then .  next thing I knew I am now back to back with this guy I helped. covering each other, then it sorta went to boxing , after we cleaned them up ( he was pretty good too ! )  I realised  he was a Police rescue guy , white overalls with Police insignia ... I had been fighting alongside the police as the drunken rednecks attacked them, without me knowing it  !     

 

So they got arrested and I didnt .    Ha har!

 

In short , Tai chi techniques can be very effective , if you know when and how to use them properly in a fight situation , but one should not be restricted to one 'style', unless its a good one and  has all sorts of different stuff under one name.  

 

I trained with a guy recently  that did tai chi for years , he was absolutely hopeless in an application situation, I could push him over with one hand . I asked and he admitted he had never felt the 'pressure' of anything against his techniques but air .  The I did all this stuff to him as he tried different attacks a lot of it I could show him where in some of the moves he actually did himself in practising his solo form . 

 

Another guy who is in my club is a tai chi instructor , he can well hold his own with me and the instructor , he knows the applications and knows how to fight ... I am respectfully wary of him 

 

So I dont feel it is actually the 'Tai Chi '  at question here , more the 'Tai Chi practitioner' .

 

Good story

I do not question taiji's ability in fight. Certainly not the most straight forward system to learn -but effective I have no doubt about it, depending on the inclination of one's practice.

I was truly interested in learning stories of taiji applied to street fights and one of my points is : violence in our world is much less physical than psychological nowadays, so physical fights are rather scarce. That's the beauty of this art you learn so much more than just fighting (if you do). Among plenty others you learn to move in a smart way, developing body's intelligence (call internal power, peng jing, ...).

 

[Starjumper]

23 hours ago, CloudHands said:

I took the pipa stance

 

Could you describe which one that is.  I tried looking it up and didn't find anything.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Starjumper

[CloudHands]

5 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

Could you describe which one that is.  I tried looking it up and didn't find anything.

 

Sure

"play the pipa"

[Starjumper]

 

32 minutes ago, CloudHands said:

Sure

"play the pipa"

 

OK, playing the guitar (I speak Engrish), I think of it mainly as an elbow break, although the way it's normally done in the form its ability to break an elbow is hidden (but not in my form).  When you used the word stance I was thinking of a certain foot stance.  In my form, that elbow break  is done with the weight forward instead of back.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Starjumper

[ReturnDragon]

14 minutes ago, CloudHands said:

That's the beauty of this art you learn so much more than just fighting (if you do). Among plenty others you learn to move in a smart way, developing body's intelligence (call internal power, peng jing, ...). 

That is quite right. The art of Tai Chi is not learn to fight but it just come with the package. To fight good with Tai Chi is not mainly with the moves rather it was the combination of the "you learn to move in a smart way, developing body's intelligence (call internal power, peng jin(勁). Period.)"

I like that, you knew what Tai Chi is all about. 

[ReturnDragon]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

 

 

OK, playing the guitar (I speak Engrish., I think of it mainly as an elbow break, although the way it's normally done in the form its ability to break an elbow is hidden (but not in my form).  When you used the word stance I was thinking of a certain foot stance.  In my form, that elbow break  is done with the weight forward instead of back.

I don't mean to be sarcastic. If one learned Tai Chi from the masters as you have described, one should not still be asking silly question like that. Peace!

It is pity that's how you understood about Qigong on reverse breathing!
 

Edited April 6, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[CloudHands]

7 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

 

OK, playing the guitar (I speak Engrish., I think of it mainly as an elbow break, although the way it's normally done in the form its ability to break an elbow is hidden (but not in my form).  When you used the word stance I was thinking of a certain foot stance.  In my form, that elbow break  is done with the weight forward instead of back.

 

the pipa is not a guitar but yes i see what you mean

and yes it's a guard with a potential of articulation lock

[Starjumper]

OOps, I made a mistake when I wrote that we do the elbow break with weight forward.  I had to stand up and try it a couple of times  = )

 

In my form we do it with weight to the back, although technically the elbow break can be done with the weight wherever.  If You want I can post a video that shows how we give it power to actually break an elbow (the kind of thing that is normally hidden in Yang style)  I realize it may be considered getting off topic, although how to use it to break people may be considered more on topic.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Starjumper

[Earl Grey]

2 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

 

OK, playing the guitar (I speak Engrish), I think of it mainly as an elbow break, although the way it's normally done in the form its ability to break an elbow is hidden (but not in my form).  When you used the word stance I was thinking of a certain foot stance.  In my form, that elbow break  is done with the weight forward instead of back.

 

Don't worry about speaking Engrish--I learned it first as "guitar" rather than pipa, but quickly figured out it's the same thing when someone said pipa and showed me the stance in person.

 

He called it pipa, I called it guitar, we did the same thing, but then the way I learned how to use it rather than how to call it showed that semantics meant nothing if my skill was already better. And it was way better because he was a guy who thought he knew more from reading a $3 book in Cantonese from S.F. Chinatown than I did with formal instruction, and the results with application, sensing hands, and fighting were as expected. 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, CloudHands said:

 

Good story

I do not question taiji's ability in fight. Certainly not the most straight forward system to learn -but effective I have no doubt about it, depending on the inclination of one's practice.

I was truly interested in learning stories of taiji applied to street fights and one of my points is : violence in our world is much less physical than psychological nowadays, so physical fights are rather scarce. That's the beauty of this art you learn so much more than just fighting (if you do). Among plenty others you learn to move in a smart way, developing body's intelligence (call internal power, peng jing, ...).

 

 

Oh definitely ! The main benefit I got from aikido was how its principles can be applied to many areas of life that have nothing to d with MA or SD . 

 

Learning to move in a smart way !  I like that .    That skill has become very important to me , due to  skeletal and joint deterioration and having to split a lot of firewood , even old worn out Nungal , by moving and using body intelligently , can split huge blocks , while the  fit muscley 30 year old guy that works here sometimes seems to have great difficulty with it    

 

Or just , ' mind set ' or energy ; many a time I have had to control or settle down large agro out of it people in  Emergency ward when I worked at a hospital .  Not allowed to fight or use violence there  - most of it was done with 'presence' and energy  this happened about 2 -3 times a week over 10 years , all that I only had to resort to physical only about a dozen times .  Even that was 'physical trickery' , never 'slugging it out   ( but then again , I always resort to 'trickery ' , mental or physical     )

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

 

OK, playing the guitar (I speak Engrish), I think of it mainly as an elbow break, although the way it's normally done in the form its ability to break an elbow is hidden (but not in my form).  When you used the word stance I was thinking of a certain foot stance.  In my form, that elbow break  is done with the weight forward instead of back.

 

Thats a silly way to do it .    Perhaps you are not remembering what you where taught properly ?

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

I don't mean to be sarcastic. If one learned Tai Chi from the masters as you have described, one should not still be asking silly question like that. Peace!


 

 

Indeed !  Rather an embarrassing self expose !

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Starjumper said:

OOps, I made a mistake when I wrote that we do the elbow break with weight forward.  I had to stand up and try it a couple of times  = )

 

Ah good , I see you agree with me .

 

 

3 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

In my form we do it with weight to the back, although technically the elbow break can be done with the weight wherever.  If You want I can post a video that shows how we give it power to actually break an elbow (the kind of thing that is normally hidden in Yang style)  I realize it may be considered getting off topic, although how to use it to break people may be considered more on topic.

 

No, the topic would be valid IF  you had ever actually  done it   to someone and could describe how it went or what happened - not some imaginary scenario .

 

[Starjumper]

On 4/5/2020 at 4:46 AM, CloudHands said:

Did anyone here ever used Taiji chuan in the concrete reality of a brutal street fight ?

 

I did once.  Some guy in Vilcabamba stole my lap top computer so I chased him down and sent him to the hospital.  It was at night, and someone left the front door open at the B&B where I was staying.  Some young man snuck in and took my computer while I was sleeping, but I heard him, so got up and chased him.  He had a bit of a head start so it took me, a 64 year old man running barefoot, four blocks to catch up to the young punk with running shoes on.  Actually he was a pretty strong fellow in good condition.  We were running on kind of rough, hard and rocky dirt roads so I ended up losing most of the skin on my toes, and the next day my feet felt pretty beat up.  I thank my ability to run so fast, after never jogging or practicing sprinting, to my chi kung training.

 

Normally I think of tai chi methods as ways to intercept an attack and end it in one second, but in this case I attacked him, so it was more like me just beating the hell out of him, but I did use methods which I had learned, and probably some from previous lives, because that was the only real fight I've been in.  I might write more details about that later, but first I want to share a story of how tai chi was used in a fight, by a kung fu brother of sorts, when he was attacked.  Next post.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

Some people think that if you want to become an effective martial artist quickly, tai chi and other internal arts are not for you, and if you want to learn to use tai chi as a martial arts, you'd best be prepared to devote a lot of time and focus to them.

 

I also used to think this way, but I discovered I was wrong.  I discovered this in my kung fu class, a kung fu based on tai chi, wing chun, etc, the internal martial arts.

 

It turns out that if you just focus on the applications and forget all the forms and push hands then a good student can quickly learn some really effective stuff.  Of course learning the forms does help, as does push hands, if you want to go far, but just knowing some methods can be absolutely effective.

 

To illustrate this I'll share a story that Dave Harris told me while I was in class: 

 

A young feller was brought to class by his mom, who really wanted him to learn self defense.  The kid wasn't so interested and really wanted to learn piano instead, so he dropped out after two months. My teacher referred to him as Little Sissy Boy.

 

Well this guy was working at a fast food burger place one evening and this big African American came to the window and demanded a free burger.  The kid said he couldn't do that so the black guy said he was going to return at closing time.

 

So at closing time there were 5 - Five - (5) big black bruisers waiting for him when he came out of work and they attacked him.  The result of this was that four of them went down and didn't get up for awhile, and three of them had to go to the hospital.  The big tough attackers told the police that little sissy boy had attacked them, but there had been a couple of police sitting in an unmarked car there and they saw the whole thing.  Dave said that Little Sissy Boy had learned well and he just accidentally did everything right.

 

There are other reasons that traditional tai chi normally takes years to get to the defense part, if ever, and most students aren't ever going to get a chance to see the level of sophistication that Dave was teaching us.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Starjumper

[CloudHands]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

Some people think that if you want to become an effective martial artist quickly, tai chi and other internal arts are not for you, and if you want to learn to use tai chi as a martial arts, you'd best be prepared to devote a lot of time and focus to them.

 

I also used to think this way, but I discovered I was wrong.  I discovered this in my kung fu class, a kung fu based on tai chi, wing chun, etc, the internal martial arts.

 

It turns out that if you just focus on the applications and forget all the forms and push hands then a good student can quickly learn some really effective stuff.  Of course learning the forms does help, as does push hands, if you want to go far, but just knowing some methods can be absolutely effective.

 

Yes, that's very possible. On the same time it would lost what's most precious... the instrument of self growth, the day by day valuable gift and it would become just a "self-defense" MA among others.

 

It's very important to be able to defend yourself but nothing can prevent you of everything. In the most dangerous playgrounds, social skills will work way better than MA skills. Live in the wrong neighborhood hit the wrong person, well no, not a good idea.

 

My 2 cents.

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, CloudHands said:

 

Yes, that's very possible. On the same time it would lost what's most precious... the instrument of self growth, the day by day valuable gift and it would become just a "self-defense" MA among others.

 

It's very important to be able to defend yourself but nothing can prevent you of everything. In the most dangerous playgrounds, social skills will work way better than MA skills. Live in the wrong neighborhood hit the wrong person, well no, not a good idea.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Social skills are an extension of Taijiquan skills. You exchange fists for words and simply replace one battlefield for another. Bring the grace of Taijiquan or any internal art and you will flow effortlessly. Obviously still something I have a lot to work on to get there. Will share an Aikido story Nungali may enjoy later. 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Earl Grey

[CloudHands]

27 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Social skills are an extension of Taijiquan skills. You exchange fists for words and simply replace one battlefield for another. Bring the grace of Taijiquan or any internal art and you will flow effortlessly. Obviously still something I have a lot to work on to get there. Will share an Aikido story Nungali may enjoy later. 

 

Yeah I agree ! Except it could turn a battlefield in something more enjoyable. Being able to be in opposition to something/one with no stiffness (because it can't help..), that's something close to realization.

[Earl Grey]

Just now, CloudHands said:

 

Yeah I agree ! Except it could turn a battlefield in something more enjoyable. Being able to be in opposition to something/one with no stiffness (because it can't help..), that's something close to realization.

Exactly what I’m talking about.

[Earl Grey]

So here is a story @Nungali might be familiar with regarding Aikido, as told by my Bagua Sifu. 

 

A well-respected Aikido practitioner and master in a restaurant one day witnessed a very unbalanced young man storming in, kicking chairs and shouting at people. When approached by the waitstaff, he threatened her and she froze in place, frightened. The Aikido practitioner mentally prepared himself to sort the fellow out using what he had learned, before an old man leapt in front and said calmly but firmly, "Hey, hey! Young man! This is no way to act! Come sit down at my booth and I'll buy you brunch and have a chat if you can promise to behave as a gentleman should!"

 

So things calmed down and the Aikido practitioner happened to be in the booth behind the old man and the young man. He overheard the story: the young man lost his job that day, on the same day he got a call from hospital saying that his wife was in a car accident and in critical condition, which also could affect their unborn child--and he had no idea he was going to be a father until they called him that day. Now, with no job, he had no money or insurance to take care of his wife and unborn child, and broke down into tears as the old man comforted him.

 

The Aikido practitioner realized who the true Aikido master was in that moment, and it most definitely was not himself. 

[Nungali]

I did enjoy that story as ..... I have heard numerous versions of the same story with different details ... all from Aikidoists .

 

Its a sort of Aikido mythology  

 

Here is one of my own I used to tell to 'aikido mythology spreaders'  ;

 

A  small town  has an aikido instructor, a boxing instructor, a judo instructor and a karate instructor . One Friday night, down  at the pub, all hell breaks loose in a mass fight ; the judo instructor is throwing people around, the boxing instructor is punching people in the head, left right and centre, the karate instructor is doing flying kicks and chopping people ..... 

 

Q.  What about the aikido instructor ?

 

Him ?    Oh, he doesn't go down to the pub at all.

 

 

[Earl Grey]

10 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I did enjoy that story as ..... I have heard numerous versions of the same story with different details ... all from Aikidoists .

 

Its a sort of Aikido mythology  

 

Here is one of my own I used to tell to 'aikido mythology spreaders'  ;

 

A  small town  has an aikido instructor, a boxing instructor, a judo instructor and a karate instructor . One Friday night, down  at the pub, all hell breaks loose in a mass fight ; the judo instructor is throwing people around, the boxing instructor is punching people in the head, left right and centre, the karate instructor is doing flying kicks and chopping people ..... 

 

Q.  What about the aikido instructor ?

 

Him ?    Oh, he doesn't go down to the pub at all.

 

 

 

I heard that one too. One version was that he let them all sort it out amongst themselves and he had a few drinks outside away from the mayhem, then came in after the fight was over, or something like that.