Taiji fights

[Nungali]

33 minutes ago, dwai said:

I’ve heard from reliable sources that Mizner has real skill. 
 

Here’s a little demo by my Sifu — 

 

 

The video is part of a live lesson he gave us last fall when we visited him. 
 

But then he also says that fajin ability doesn’t mean someone can fight. To know how to fight, one has to practice fighting  

 

 

 

Nahhhh .  Those guys are not hopping skipping,  jumping ,  hopping one leg up in the air and stamping it on the ground ... not one of them flailed their arms or ran backwards , no 'internal chi short circuit body jerking '  - just loosing their centre and balance and being pushed away   ....  pfffft ! 

 

 

 

[Earl Grey]

54 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

I see good movement and what you describe in the 'master'  , what I am observing is the reaction in the 'student' to those movements of the 'master '  .   

 

 

Depends. One student in our school got knocked into the ceiling fan during a push hands class from the fajin.

 

34 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Nahhhh .  Those guys are not hopping skipping,  jumping ,  hopping one leg up in the air and stamping it on the ground ... not one of them flailed their arms or ran backwards , no 'internal chi short circuit body jerking '  - just loosing their centre and balance and being pushed away   ....  pfffft ! 

 

 

 

Yes, Dwai’s teacher is not doing the same thing.

[dwai]

46 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Nahhhh .  Those guys are not hopping skipping,  jumping ,  hopping one leg up in the air and stamping it on the ground ... not one of them flailed their arms or ran backwards , no 'internal chi short circuit body jerking '  - just loosing their centre and balance and being pushed away   ....  pfffft ! 

 

 

 

Haha so we aren’t human sock puppets  

[beingnature]

3 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Depends. One student in our school got knocked into the ceiling fan during a push hands class from the fajin.

 

Haha , once while doing push hands , a friend that has 90 kg stepped accidently on my foot and somehow he was shot in the air from there.

 

All the videos are real, i can do most of those things just from doing lots and long session of zhang zhuang and the spontaneous qigong i went through plus watching some vids reading some texts and experimenting a little..cant do it in such a sophisticated way because i dont do it everyday though. Once a pure sceptic wanted to feel this things and didnt want them to work.for him it must have felt like meeting a real magician .

 

I think its a shame that there are still non believers in taji circles.everyone who calls himself a master should have this skills.

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, beingnature said:

Haha , once while doing push hands , a friend that has 90 kg stepped accidently on my foot and somehow he was shot in the air from there.

 

All the videos are real, i can do most of those things just from doing lots and long session of zhang zhuang and the spontaneous qigong i went through plus watching some vids reading some texts and experimenting a little..cant do it in such a sophisticated way because i dont do it everyday though. Once a pure sceptic wanted to feel this things and didnt want them to work.for him it must have felt like meeting a real magician .

 

I think its a shame that there are still non believers in taji circles.everyone who calls himself a master should have this skills.

 

Most internal arts are not taught correctly, especially if taught incomplete or wrong. Most people don't have the patience to dedicate to it a lot of effort and time, as there's no hacking it like some modernists like to do. 

 

Those who have fajin and rooting did it properly and gave a lot of blood, sweat, and tears. Those who want it need to do the time and have the right practice--there's no way around it and whether you believe you have it or not, it will show in your skill, not in what you feel. 

[doc benway]

I don't deny the masters shown in the posted videos have skill.

The issue I have with videos like these is they generally show star-struck, admiring students trying hard to learn something from their revered master. It's a very particular dynamic and shows clearly when filmed. Nungli described it best. When you are on the receiving end of fajin you don't jump up and down, run backwards, wave your hands, and stomp your feet. You generally end up on the floor, no smile on the face, no chuckle, no bouncing right back for another go. One training tool is to find a small room and pad the walls, usually with mattresses. Then practice with each other. No running backwards, no foot stomping, more like bodies flying against the walls and ending up on the floor when you get it right. These folks are very likely feeling some real internal energy. The master is controlling it so as not to injure anyone and the students are doing their dances, cautiously going along with the master, hungry to learn their secrets. 

[Earl Grey]

3 hours ago, beingnature said:

I think its a shame that there are still non believers in taji circles.everyone who calls himself a master should have this skills.

 

It took me five years of the ten I've studied, but once I finally learned fajin, it felt like all the people so certain of themselves about what is real and what is fake became uninteresting to me.

 

I recall how every time someone was telling me that it's a waste of time to study the internal arts and how certain they were of MMA or their own practice of what IMA can and can not do.

 

There is simply no explanation that satisfies them, but in the end, what I have done works and these MMA people aren't faking their reactions anymore. 

[Earl Grey]

Just now, steve said:

I don't deny the masters shown in the posted videos have skill.

The issue I have with videos like these is they generally show star-struck, admiring students trying hard to learn something from their revered master. It's a very particular dynamic and shows clearly when filmed. Nungli described it best. When you are on the receiving end of fajin you don't jump up and down, run backwards, wave your hands, and stomp your feet. You generally end up on the floor, no smile on the face, no chuckle, no bouncing right back for another go. One training tool is to find a small room and pad the walls, usually with mattresses. Then practice with each other. No running backwards, no foot stomping, more like bodies flying against the walls and ending up on the floor when you get it right. These folks are very likely feeling some real internal energy. The master is controlling it so as not to injure anyone and the students are doing their dances, cautiously going along with the master, hungry to learn their secrets. 

 

This is what you refer to, but people still call it fake. 

 

 

[Earl Grey]

2 minutes ago, steve said:

No running backwards, no foot stomping, more like bodies flying against the walls and ending up on the floor when you get it right.

 

I've seen people run backwards, fall over, and when they get back up, they're still feeling the fajin as the push is still happening causing them to run backwards uncontrollably. 

 

Terry Dunn has this exact video I refer to and he and my other teachers don't mind people don't believe it or are very certain about how fajin should look like. 

 

Nobody should be able to fajin with his face either, but David was on the receiving end of a fajin with his friend's face, knocking him through three crates and breaking them in Hong Kong. 

 

The best way to approach these demonstrations I have found is to be both open and skeptical simultaneously, but not contrarian and self-certain. 

[doc benway]

Precisely and even this shows that master-student deference in their practice.

Looks like a little wing chun mixed in to my eye...

 

At the end of the day, I find it's good not to be too concerned with what others believe or don't believe.

Even more important not to be too concerned with what I believe...

 

 

[Earl Grey]

1 minute ago, steve said:

Precisely and even this shows that master-student deference in their practice.

Looks like a little wing chun mixed in to my eye...

 

At the end of the day, I find it's good not to be too concerned with what others believe or don't believe.

Even more important not to be too concerned with what I believe...

 

 

 

What you believe is most important to you, and everyone else with what they hold sacred follows the same rule...this is why there are so many heated discussions on this matter, especially when our friend Starjumper was still around. 

 

What I find is that what I practice isn't so much as believing it so much as believing in the basic laws of gravity--it works whether one believes or not. 

 

The opportunity to make skeptics into believers, however, is a waste of time and takes what precious time there exists for cultivating into prostituting oneself at a certain point, which is why the demos of the people I know eventually are reserved for potential students or existing ones, and everything else is parlor chat. 

[dwai]

3 hours ago, steve said:

I don't deny the masters shown in the posted videos have skill.

The issue I have with videos like these is they generally show star-struck, admiring students trying hard to learn something from their revered master. It's a very particular dynamic and shows clearly when filmed. Nungli described it best. When you are on the receiving end of fajin you don't jump up and down, run backwards, wave your hands, and stomp your feet. You generally end up on the floor, no smile on the face, no chuckle, no bouncing right back for another go. One training tool is to find a small room and pad the walls, usually with mattresses. Then practice with each other. No running backwards, no foot stomping, more like bodies flying against the walls and ending up on the floor when you get it right. These folks are very likely feeling some real internal energy. The master is controlling it so as not to injure anyone and the students are doing their dances, cautiously going along with the master, hungry to learn their secrets. 

There’s something to be said about the “hop” though. I think only people with proper training can do the “hop” and not land on their butts. Whenever I’ve bounced untrained people they tend to move like a sack of potatoes. 
 

When executed with controlled very small release of long power, the recipient will be sent away in direct of release and end up hopping to retain a balance. 

 

Most of the videos I’ve seen (including a few of  mizner) are very small release of long power. So person moves back or bounces up and down (if jin is that way), if they’re not neutralizing. It happens if skill levels are mismatched to a high level.

 

When my brothers and I practice this kind of drills, sometimes one person stops neutralizing, so the other person can practice fajin. So

the bouncy bouncy stuff happens. 
 

When we are drilling na jin, then the jerk/extra hopping etc happen. I think Mizner and other folks from the HSS/YSH lineage tend to use Na a lot — so they end up ‘sock-puppeting’ their students who don’t neutralize. 

Here’s some Na Jin drilling I recorded my brothers doing. Here one person is practicing applying Na jin, so other person is not neutralizing. If both are actively neutralizing it doesn’t look like this at all — 

 

 

In the videos they say they can’t neutralize, but I’ve seen that is only the case when there is a huge skill difference between two people. If level of ting and sung are identical often nothing much will happen without some way to “trick” the other person into giving up ground. 
 

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by dwai

[Vajra Fist]

I've seen plenty of excellent demonstrations to know that taiji masters can do some pretty amazing things.

 

That said, I haven't seen many demonstrations out of the context of push hands, and even fewer demonstrations where the person being pushed around was not a student of the master.

 

Conversely, I've seen many who claim to be taiji masters get an absolute pasting from MMA fighters. 

 

Of course, the question of whether taiji is effective for fighting is not really the main focus of the arts. This video is one of the most nuanced discussions of this in my opinion. Focusing on violence is pretty immature, in the context of the other benefits of practice. Although it's important to learn how to fight in order to arrive at the spiritual side of the art. 

 

 

Edit: should be noted that Damo is a friend of Mizner's and even gives a testimonial on Mizner's site on the man's ability in applications.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Vajra Fist

[Earl Grey]

6 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

Conversely, I've seen many who claim to be taiji masters get an absolute pasting from MMA fighters. 

 

 

Most of those who claim to be Taiji masters aren't that good to begin with, like the ones who were destroyed by the MMA guy in China trying to prove how they were fake. Lots of the good masters no longer exist in China and their arts are very well guarded or hidden.

 

7 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

Of course, the question of whether taiji is effective for fighting is not really the main focus of the arts

 

Incorrect. Taijiquan is a fighting style, but taiji is a philosophy and refers to the Yin and Yang symbol. There is of course overlap, but rarely do people learn proper Taijiquan to fight. Those who do know how to fight with Taijiquan know what it means "supreme ultimate fist". 

 

8 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

Focusing on violence is pretty immature, in the context of the other benefits of practice

 

Focusing on violence, yes, but the martial arts aspect is what helps look beyond the binary view that good is good and evil is evil--hence, the use of the taiji symbol. If one thinks martial arts is synonymous with violence, then they lack creativity and understanding. Often, the health benefits were secondary to the martial practice, and the spiritual awakening came as a result of transcending the battlefield.

 

10 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

Although it's important to learn how to fight in order to arrive at the spiritual side of the art.

 

In our practice, it's to ground the self in reality before the yogic practice, lest we end up with deviations. 

[dwai]

10 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

I've seen plenty of excellent demonstrations to know that taiji masters can do some pretty amazing things.

 

That said, I haven't seen many demonstrations out of the context of push hands, and even fewer demonstrations where the person being pushed around was not a student of the master.

that’s because in a fight it doesn’t look like a push hands set

 

 

[Vajra Fist]

.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Vajra Fist

[freeform]

10 minutes ago, dwai said:

that’s because in a fight it doesn’t look like a push hands set

 

I've seen some fights with at least one of the fighters having decent internal skill. And yes - it just looks like fighting - not like drills or demonstrations.

 

I quite like Anthony Ho's demonstrations of internal skill under slightly more pressure than a willing demo subject:

 

One of my teachers is very much into IMA - to him, it's about putting one's equanimity to the test under pressure.

 

[Master Logray]

This kind of videos always look ludicrous.  But they are a rather misrepresented demonstration of skills, intentionally or not.  My teacher says such can only work between teachers and students, not with outsiders.   The performance is actually using the centre of gravity to throw off opponents.  A person can do it without any Chikung background, and it is not exactly a fajin.  Using Chi and fajin combined with such CG moves can enhance the damage.

 

But don't think this skill is easy.  The theory can be learned within weeks.  Using it could take more time than generating Chi.  The skill requires long term training of "listening" i.e. knowing, anticipating, devising counter measures and respond in split second. 

[Earl Grey]

18 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

My teacher says such can only work between teachers and students, not with outsiders. 

Then he has very limited experience if he believes this is as absolute.

 

19 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

The performance is actually using the centre of gravity to throw off opponents

Totally different.

 

19 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

But don't think this skill is easy

It is the opposite.

 

20 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

The theory can be learned within weeks.

Years. Intellectual understanding is different from actual knowledge and skill.

 

 

[Creation]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

 

I quite like Anthony Ho's demonstrations of internal skill under slightly more pressure than a willing demo subject:

 

I'm having some trouble finding a partner for the two person Taiji exercises in Damo's academy, because despite there being a lot of interest in Taiji in my town for its size, no one wants to believe that some white guy whose form doesn't look like what they were taught could possibly know more than their teacher from China in silk pajamas and kung fu slippers who graduated from a prestigious physical education university in Beijing etc etc. Doesn't help that Damo (and Adam Mizner's) demos of fajin, especially an jin, look impossible and therefore fake, especially to someone who has never seen any fa jin at all.

 

All that to say, thanks for the lead on someone Chinese doing demos on high level external arts people, maybe that will have more of an impact on people I show it to. Or maybe not.

[Vajra Fist]

On 15/09/2020 at 6:26 PM, Creation said:

I'm having some trouble finding a partner for the two person Taiji exercises in Damo's academy, because despite there being a lot of interest in Taiji in my town for its size, no one wants to believe that some white guy whose form doesn't look like what they were taught could possibly know more than their teacher from China in silk pajamas and kung fu slippers who graduated from a prestigious physical education university in Beijing etc etc. Doesn't help that Damo (and Adam Mizner's) demos of fajin, especially an jin, look impossible and therefore fake, especially to someone who has never seen any fa jin at all.

 

All that to say, thanks for the lead on someone Chinese doing demos on high level external arts people, maybe that will have more of an impact on people I show it to. Or maybe not.

 

Not sure where you're based but (as far as I know) Damo teaches the Huang Sheng Shyan version of CMC 37. One of Huang's four indoor students, Wee Kee Jin, has a very wide network of teachers around the world. I actually found one just 15 min walk from my office in London, which I plan to attend when the world returns to normal. Hope you have similar good fortune

 

[lrn2livorlive2lrn]

this was already touched on but Ill 2nd 3rd or 4th the notion that you need to try to fight to have any real truthful expectation of being effective.  You need to cultivate Fighting ability.
 

Just about every martial art can be applied and be effective if you practice fighting. If you don’t practice actually fighting it might still work on someone who also doesn’t practice fighting. Many a brawler has won numerous fights in their town with their left hook or whatever . It’s going to get much harder when you suck at defending, evading, reading position, timing,controlling adrenaline. 
 

I think if you can find a situation where you work at applying what you know with someone who is experienced in say kick boxing you will no longer question what you need to work on.  
 

does it work? Yeah on some and if you can pull it off. You can’t even begin to say whether it work or not until you’re at the point that You can say you have the ability to not get destroyed instantly.  You can’t just throw a bullet at someone. You need some other important things to make that bullet effective. 
 

I haven’t seen anyone win a fight with taiji I think you’re more likely to see a judo guy pull off taiji. I have seen just about every competing martial art win fights. I have seen a lot of non competing martial artists revert to bad boxing, brawling or just have no chance. The better the fighting ability the more art comes out In sparring,fighting.  Just thoughts 
 

Edited October 4, 2020 by lrn2livorlive2lrn

[Nungali]

I agree . Its about time  some realisation was had ... and its VERY basic realisation.

 

The person experienced in  REAL  fighting will probably win over the one not experienced in it   . The one with a 'mixed' bag of experience  , eg MMA,  is more likely to win over someone only dong one art .

 

Look at a decathlon , who is more likely to win ;  the expert javelin thrower  or the one that has experience in  100 metres sprint, long jump, shot-put, high jump, 400 metres, 110 metres hurdles, discus, pole vault, javelin, and 1,500 metres ?

 

MOST of what we see in MA  is   demonstration.   Many  tai chi guys dont seem to realise what a 'fight competition '  is and many MMA guys dont seem to realise what a 'demo' is ..... here are two  guys  ( one Tai Chi and one MMA )    that understand the difference between  competition and demonstration .   That means the MMA guy will try and help the other show some 'theory in application', he isnt concerned about beating him or winning  - big difference !

 

 

 

 

[freeform]

12 hours ago, lrn2livorlive2lrn said:

I haven’t seen anyone win a fight with taiji I think you’re more likely to see a judo guy pull off taiji. I have seen just about every competing martial art win fights.

 

I've met hundreds of taiji players... maybe into the thousands by now. And I'm talking about dedicated students that travel across the globe to train with top teachers - not the random 'Jake Mace Tiji' types.

 

I can count on my fingers (and maybe a few toes) how many of them actually have the real taiji principles developed to some extent. I can count on just one hand the number of players that have mastered the art to the extent that's required to even begin training for a real professional fight (mostly the other group's teachers or most senior students).

 

And none of them are in the least bit interested in training to win competitive fights.

 

So the pool of people that have taiji skills is very very small. The pool of people that could potentially learn to put that skill into a real competitive fighting situation is even lower... And the pool of people willing to do that is probably close to zero.

 

Even if you're an avid watcher of fights - you've probably seen 0.0000001% of all fights that have happened in the world during your lifetime... So what are the odds that you happen to see a close to zero likelihood of a real taiji player fight in a real fight?

 

The sad state of this art is that the vast majority of taiji players in the world right now have never even met anyone that has developed genuine taiji jin.

 

Just like tigers - you have to trust someone else that they exist

[Master Logray]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

 

I've met hundreds of taiji players... maybe into the thousands by now. And I'm talking about dedicated students that travel across the globe to train with top teachers - not the random 'Jake Mace Tiji' types.

 

I can count on my fingers (and maybe a few toes) how many of them actually have the real taiji principles developed to some extent. I can count on just one hand the number of players that have mastered the art to the extent that's required to even begin training for a real professional fight (mostly the other group's teachers or most senior students).

 

And none of them are in the least bit interested in training to win competitive fights.

 

So the pool of people that have taiji skills is very very small. The pool of people that could potentially learn to put that skill into a real competitive fighting situation is even lower... And the pool of people willing to do that is probably close to zero.

 

Even if you're an avid watcher of fights - you've probably seen 0.0000001% of all fights that have happened in the world during your lifetime... So what are the odds that you happen to see a close to zero likelihood of a real taiji player fight in a real fight?

 

The sad state of this art is that the vast majority of taiji players in the world right now have never even met anyone that has developed genuine taiji jin.

 

Just like tigers - you have to trust someone else that they exist

 

You are right.  Taichi players these days never prepare for a real fight, psychological and physically, no refinement of skills, no realistic and hard training.   Even if there is someone who masters the "Taichi principles", this person cannot survive on a street level.   Unfortunately so many people, including well-known cultivators believe that, with Taichi develops the Chi, then the real power will manifest and they can fight anyone.   It makes me wonder their words on cultivation is reliable or not.