Spinal Breathing Gives Kundalini Awakening

[Mikey_Power_Up]

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

What do you mean by “peak experience”? Why should MCO and kundalini be similar in terms of experience? 

Different purposes, different experiences...

 

Oh. I don't think they should be the same in experience. I'm just mentioning what has given the most awe. 

[dwai]

Just now, Mikey_Power_Up said:

Oh. I don't think they should be the same in experience. I'm just mentioning what has given the most awe. 

Sometimes the most humble of experiences teach us the most important of all lessons  

 

Quote

SIGNS OF PROGRESS

🍁"What are the signs of progress in our practice? What can we expect?
Should we wait for a signal from the guru—
or an award?
According to Karma Chagme Rinpoche,
we will have no experiences,
no special dreams, no pure visions.
The “king of all signs,”
also known as the “sign of no-sign,”
which was highly prized
by the Kagyupa masters of the past,
is when renunciation mind,
sadness and devotion blaze in your mind.
The signs to be cherished
must include an escalating appetite
for dharma practice;
noticing the futility of everything you do; ever-increasing conflicts
as a result of old habits;
and while you may still have the urge
to party with your friends,
to be plagued by the unwelcome sense
that the whole thing
is a useless waste of time.

Therefore do not constantly aim
to finish the practice.
Instead, try to accept that your spiritual journey
will never end.
Your journey began with the wish that you,
personally, bring all sentient beings
to enlightenment,
so until that wish is fulfilled,
your activities as a bodhisattva
will never cease."🍁

~ His Eminence Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

 

[Earl Grey]

3 hours ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

Perhaps, but it isn't certain that a person ends up aggrandizing themselves.  They might just become a better version who is aware of their power, worth and limitations. Teaching self-awareness with self-making might be an awesome combination. Perhaps a lifelong never ending black/white mirror journal., wins/losses,  good me/bad me, reality vs inflation...

This still reinforces the point of self-aggrandizing....

[Mikey_Power_Up]

59 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

This still reinforces the point of self-aggrandizing....

Do you naturally have an issue with people believing in themselves and working hard?

[Earl Grey]

26 minutes ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

Do you naturally have an issue with people believing in themselves and working hard?

 

Straw man. This is not what I stated at all. 

 

Let me give you a couple points: a person who creates their own criteria can go in several directions. One is that the standard they set for themselves ends up overestimating their own actual achievements, another is that what they believe they are working on , they might think of as "okay" but the reality is that an outsider looking in might have a totally different opinion.

 

A woman I once talked with who was known to be a chatterbox said that she decided one day she was going to listen more. We said, "Okay, good for you" cynically because she had been told multiple times she talked too much, talked over people, interrupted them, and dismissed their views and feelings often. 

 

So she would still talk longer, then stop for a moment, and if nobody said anything for ten seconds (she literally counted to ten in her head), she'd say, "Go on, I'm listening" and variations, as though she were uncomfortable with silence. Later on, she'd begin nudging and say, "Go on, you can talk to me" or "Hey, I'm listening, did you hear what I said?"

 

A few weeks later, she reverted to her old habits, but then argued she was a better listener, yet people didn't talk much or respect her. 

 

Another example: an MMA coach who wants to be a life coach I know started attempting to coach me and tell me that I was a master and I knew a lot because I had invested in over ten years in my particular practices. I told him no, it doesn't work that way, and he started listing his personal criteria and citing Joe Rogan and a bunch of YouTube workout videos inspiring people to train harder. He insisted he knew how to guide people and what was best because he could coach them to peak physical fitness using his MMA gym, but the people who knew him said he came off as a know-it-all telling people he was so great all the time that it seemed more like his coaching was for his own self-esteem rather than to encourage others to be better, and that fitness does not solve all problems, nor does telling people to download a meditation app help. He currently spends his time telling me every time I see him to sign up for his program and that I'm wasting my time with my masters and lineages when I could learn to compete in UFC or One Championship with his coaching, which is not my interest, yet he believes all martial artists' goals should be to go to UFC. 

 

The meditation app is another great reference here: some people might say in general terms that they meditate, that they self-reflect, that they "believe in themselves and work hard" (your words), but meditating having learned the golden flower or Zazen or a Vipasana retreat are all totally different than someone playing a YouTube clip recommended by Tim Ferriss or downloading a meditation app on your phone--the quality of a specific practice is immense.

 

With the self-reflection, we are limited to how we see ourselves often rather than working with both a teacher and peers who both help with mirroring and modeling behavior.

 

With "believing in oneself", the criteria for how one assesses oneself can vary as what you might believe is good for you may actually be harmful--remember that some people believe they are more confident after finding a community on reddit, which includes the Red Pill or incel movements.

 

As for "working hard", there is also a pragmatic approach: you may potentially be doing more than you would need to for your practice and development, as there are diminishing returns at a certain point. 

 

I don't say any of this to sling mud, I say this as an outside observer who has seen similar autodidactic attitudes that have yielded semi-consistent results, hence the caution for self-aggrandizing. 

 

You're obviously free to do what you will, but this is a public forum with dialogue, and a freely given opinion you are welcome to discard, which based on your personal criteria, I'm reasonably certain that you will, which is totally fine, but at least some food for thought has been shared. 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Earl Grey

[Mikey_Power_Up]

38 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Straw man. This is not what I stated at all. 

I gave a lot of options that would allow a person to develop self-awareness as they engage in self-making yet you still take issue with it. What is you overarching issue with self-making? Self-aggrandizement doesn't naturally flow from what i suggested.   Then again, what is wrong with healthy self-aggrandizement? 

[Earl Grey]

2 minutes ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

I gave a lot of options that would allow a person to develop self-awareness as they engage in self-making yet you still take issue with it. What is you overarching issue with self-making? Self-aggrandizement doesn't naturally flow from what i suggested.   Then again, what is wrong with healthy self-aggrandizement? 

 

I edited my comment above just before you responded, and you can read that to see my elaboration on what I had said. I will respond because your last two questions are worth expanding upon.

 

I do not have an overarching issue with self-making. Self-making without proper insight or criteria is like being a frog in a well who thinks he sees the entirety of the sky. Self-aggrandizing potentially, not inevitably, flows from what you are suggesting, and unfortunately, I have seen it happen more often than not, especially amongst the western mindset. 

 

I don't see self-aggrandizing as healthy at all because it sounds like an oxymoron. Tooting one's own horn with very few exceptions doesn't help, but it has its uses in some situations, such as when saying, "Hi, I'm a doctor, and telling people to not get vaccinated is ludicrous--but you don't have to take my advice for it, I only went to Stanford medical school and did my residence in Boston" or "Hi, I'm a lawyer, and this is copyright infringement, but you don't have to take my word for it, the other lawyers will be happy to file a lawsuit against you if you don't think my three years at Harvard Law and perfect score on the BAR exam mean anything". In this case, someone like freeform or dwai can chime in as they've had formal work with qi deviations and meditating in their respective practices to catch common ego traps and potential harm, and while your personal opinion of masters and lineage is your own, it is as they have correctly identified, based off of a shallow understanding of what they actually are. 

 

Granted, I personally take the view of the philosophy of "drive in my own lane as others drive in theirs", but this doesn't mean to let others be if I see someone is about to drive into the ravine or about to take a long ride when some of us have not only used a map, but have figured out that they're hitting peak traffic or bound to get into an accident, or caught by the highway patrol. Expanding on that analogy, you posted here what you are doing and thus invited dialogue, and we responded in kind. Now if dialogue weren't what you were interested in, a PPJ to record your own progress and for others to ask you questions might have been better. 

 

Take what you will--your own self-esteem and self-work are entirely yours, and this is all just giving you other opinions from people with very different criteria and world views. I won't push the matter as I've already stated my view, and it's your thread, so unless you want to press on about why I say what I do, you don't need to worry about me saying much more after this. 

[freeform]

15 hours ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

By hacking mean that we have better data collection and analytical potential now than in the past.

 

Ah! my favourite argument - the arrogance of modernity

 

You really think we're wiser now than hundreds of generations ago?

[Mikey_Power_Up]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Ah! my favourite argument - the arrogance of modernity

 

You really think we're wiser now than hundreds of generations ago?

The Golden Age Fallacy also exists as well  
My point is quite succinct: 
(1)We have far greater analytical tools and better research methods today. 
(2) We don't need to depend on legacy and faith, when we try, test and create far more objective samples vs myth handed down with cultural flavorings and hidden 'truths' and the such. 

I would love for you to attempt to refute my #1. 
I want to know how magically the people of the past had better tools and methods of analysis than we have today.  
Why didn't they wipe out polio or cowpox earlier, if they were so wise and had greater analysis tools and methodology than we have today?

Edited April 12, 2020 by Mikey_Power_Up

[Mikey_Power_Up]

@Earl Grey You are as I suspected anti-self-development if it doesn't fit your narrow frame. That is fine, just don't sell your point of view universally. Because someone can be subject to Dunning-Kruger effect as they undergo self-creation, doesn't mean that this is most often the case. If people focus on humility and self-awareness (not in just the go sit in silence version) but more  a running assessment of who they are in all their dealings, they are less likely to come to where you suggest they have to end up. I find this odd, everything you suggest has to lead to some negative path, which to me means you have an overarching negative view of such things and possibly cannot deal with this subject matter objectively. 

[freeform]

8 minutes ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

The Golden Age Fallacy also exists as well  
My point is quite succinct: 
(1)We have far greater analytical tools and better research methods today. 
(2) We don't need to depend on legacy and faith, when we try, test and create far more objective samples vs myth handed down with cultural flavorings and hidden 'truths' and the such. 

 

We might have better tools - but these tools - as applied to medicine for example - are the third biggest killer in the US. These tools are used to destroy precious resources that our world has to offer - to satisfy the greed of a relatively few people. And these tools all come with rising obesity, poor physical and mental health for the rest of us.

 

These analytical tools have not made a dent on our understanding of our bodies or our minds. The techniques you're using (like spinal breathing) has nothing to do with any of these analytical tools - but everything to do with the analytical tools of the very lineages you're keen to disregard.

 

The most powerful and sensitive tools we have is our bodies and our minds - both of which have only suffered in the modern-day. Most people don't have enough self-awareness to look away from their phones let alone understand the cause and effect chains that are ruling their lives.

 

I'd love to see these objective samples you're talking about in regards to internal practice in recent years. Everything you've mentioned so far (from Jungian psychology to AYP, KAP to TM) all of them are using the tiny bits of ancient technology that they've been able to comprehend. And they're only scratching the surface of what's possible

 

[Earl Grey]

24 minutes ago, Mikey_Power_Up said:

@Earl Grey You are as I suspected anti-self-development if it doesn't fit your narrow frame. That is fine, just don't sell your point of view universally. Because someone can be subject to Dunning-Kruger effect as they undergo self-creation, doesn't mean that this is most often the case. If people focus on humility and self-awareness (not in just the go sit in silence version) but more  a running assessment of who they are in all their dealings, they are less likely to come to where you suggest they have to end up. I find this odd, everything you suggest has to lead to some negative path, which to me means you have an overarching negative view of such things and possibly cannot deal with this subject matter objectively. 

False conclusion. Having a structure that challenges the certainty of your own doesn’t mean anti-self-development, nor has anything I suggested led to any negative path—unless negative means you fulfilling your own Dunning-Kruger criteria. This is more a reflection of your own lack of objectivity in your own practice.
 

Nothing more to be said as at this point you’ve got your own game figured out and freeform has more patience and interest than I do. Cheers!

[freeform]

4 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

freeform has more patience and interest than I do

 

Haha - patience maybe - interest.... not so much

[Earl Grey]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Haha - patience maybe - interest.... not so much

Haha, okay, I stand corrected, Sunbae/Sempai/Shidai!  

[freeform]

An important point - more for others reading this thread than the OP...

 

Is that kundalini is very different to the movement of Qi.

 

When Qi starts to move in the spine, it's pretty exciting - you can feel some hot, buzzing sensation moving up your spine... and we've all heard of kundalini on like every 'spiritual' instagram post. But it's just Qi moving - nothing magical or mystical.

 

However 'real' kundalini rising is very different. If one is part of a lineage system, they'd know the right signs to look for... they'd know exactly where they are on the path - and whether kundalini is even helpful for them at this stage - or just a potential to really hurt themselves.

[moment]

On 4/10/2020 at 8:53 PM, Earl Grey said:

 

Those are more for what we are consciously aware of--the fact is, working with the internal arts will bring out the shadows and the subconsciousness--which is what we are often not prepared for most of the time. So it doesn't help as much as you think it does. 

 

That: "working with the internal arts will bring out the shadows and the subconsciousness--which is what we are often not prepared for most of the time."--- There are cults in the world that are formed in exactly that way.  The disciple is very vulnerable when the subconscious is being kicked up.  The unscrupulous leader is waiting for that instability to form the student in his or her image.  An image that produces lifelong servitude.  Very powerful stuff.

[Earl Grey]

5 minutes ago, moment said:

 

That: "working with the internal arts will bring out the shadows and the subconsciousness--which is what we are often not prepared for most of the time."--- There are cults in the world that are formed in exactly that way.  The disciple is very vulnerable when the subconscious is being kicked up.  The unscrupulous leader is waiting for that instability to form the student in his or her image.  An image that produces lifelong servitude.  Very powerful stuff.

 

The greatest cult is the cult of self-aggrandizing and self-importance, with a dose of self-entitlement. All those ultimately serve the master of the cult: self-sabotage.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Earl Grey

[dwai]

 

52 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

However 'real' kundalini rising is very different. If one is part of a lineage system, they'd know the right signs to look for... they'd know exactly where they are on the path - and whether kundalini is even helpful for them at this stage - or just a potential to really hurt themselves.

and if the lineage is right and preparation is good, there will be no fireworks when kundalini rises. It will rise on its own when the conditions are right. A lot of “kundalini does this” and “kundalini does that” is just a bunch of nonsense put together in wake of Gopi Krishna’s book. Gopi Krishna was a self taught yogi and so his book should be a warning for those naughty kids who don’t listen to the statutory warning and ‘try this at home’ anyway...

[anshino23]

6 hours ago, freeform said:

An important point - more for others reading this thread than the OP...

 

Is that kundalini is very different to the movement of Qi.

 

When Qi starts to move in the spine, it's pretty exciting - you can feel some hot, buzzing sensation moving up your spine... and we've all heard of kundalini on like every 'spiritual' instagram post. But it's just Qi moving - nothing magical or mystical.

 

However 'real' kundalini rising is very different. If one is part of a lineage system, they'd know the right signs to look for... they'd know exactly where they are on the path - and whether kundalini is even helpful for them at this stage - or just a potential to really hurt themselves.

 

How do you understand real kundalini within your lineage? What are the signs? Or are they secretive? Why would kundalini not be helpful if it arose from doing correct practice within a lineage process?   

 

 

[freeform]

11 hours ago, anshino23 said:

 

How do you understand real kundalini within your lineage? What are the signs? Or are they secretive? Why would kundalini not be helpful if it arose from doing correct practice within a lineage process?   

 

 

Not all Daoist lineages use kundalini. And - there are several other, similar processes that can be triggered - kundalini is just one of them.

 

I've had one kundalini ’experience’ (there are meant to be three)... And I wouldn’t say it wasn’t without it’s fireworks like Dwai says  - but certainly nothing like Gopi Krishna’s.

 

But I also know that the majority of what people think of as kundalini is not that. Heat and movement up the spine, body shaking uncontrollably, feelings of bliss, sometimes spontaneous sounds, mudras, chants produced etc etc - all of that is a reaction to yang Qi moving in the Du Mai.

 

Kundalini, for me, was a painful experience - it moves in a different way than ‘normal’ yang Qi and included a specific reaction when it reached my skull... followed by some specific changes in consciousness.

[moment]

11 hours ago, anshino23 said:

 

How do you understand real kundalini within your lineage? What are the signs? Or are they secretive? Why would kundalini not be helpful if it arose from doing correct practice within a lineage process?   

 

 

 

I would never presume to answer for freeform so, this needs to be considered as an aside of sorts.  I have experienced Kundalini.  The definition of which can be very problematic.  Because it affects everyone differently.

Kundalini is always helpful (at this very moment, freeform has made a reply to you and I read it) IF it is done through correct practice and a natural process.  I would add you need to share your experiences, from the very start, with people you know, and trust that have had similar experiences.

[anshino23]

19 minutes ago, freeform said:

Not all Daoist lineages use kundalini. And - there are several other, similar processes that can be triggered - kundalini is just one of them.

 

I've had one kundalini ’experience’ (there are meant to be three)... And I wouldn’t say it wasn’t without it’s fireworks like Dwai says  - but certainly nothing like Gopi Krishna’s.

 

But I also know that the majority of what people think of as kundalini is not that. Heat and movement up the spine, body shaking uncontrollably, feelings of bliss, sometimes spontaneous sounds, mudras, chants produced etc etc - all of that is a reaction to yang Qi moving in the Du Mai.

 

Kundalini, for me, was a painful experience - it moves in a different way than ‘normal’ yang Qi and included a specific reaction when it reached my skull... followed by some specific changes in consciousness.

 

Interesting. Thanks for sharing  

 

Three seems to be a re-ocurring pattern... three strikes of thunder, etc. 

 

Would you say kundalini is more to do with pre-heavenly qi than yang qi? 

[freeform]

14 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

Would you say kundalini is more to do with pre-heavenly qi than yang qi?

Tricky territory 

 

No - I think it’s a form of Qi... technically pre-heavenly Qi doesn’t exist - at least not in the lines I’ve trained in... the closest thing to pre-heaven Qi is what’s called ‘original breath’.

 

Yuan Shen (original spirit) -> Yuan Xi (original breath) -> Yuan Jing (original essence) -> Ming (post-heaven unfoldment)

[anshino23]

9 minutes ago, freeform said:

Tricky territory 

 

No - I think it’s a form of Qi... technically pre-heavenly Qi doesn’t exist - at least not in the lines I’ve trained in... the closest thing to pre-heaven Qi is what’s called ‘original breath’.

 

Yuan Shen (original spirit) -> Yuan Xi (original breath) -> Yuan Jing (original essence) -> Ming (post-heaven unfoldment)

 

Very nice. Thanks.  

[Mikey_Power_Up]

On 4/12/2020 at 9:46 AM, Earl Grey said:

False conclusion. Having a structure that challenges the certainty of your own doesn’t mean anti-self-development, nor has anything I suggested led to any negative path—unless negative means you fulfilling your own Dunning-Kruger criteria. This is more a reflection of your own lack of objectivity in your own practice.
 

Nothing more to be said as at this point you’ve got your own game figured out and freeform has more patience and interest than I do. Cheers!

I am correct, if it doesn't fit your frame you suggest inevitable negativity. 
Shoot you even suggest the same thing when it comes to entity possession. 
The universality of your argument is what I am taking aim at, not that you have a POV that is different.