Question about Tibetan Buddhist Yoga, Tantra, Truhl Khor, Tummo, etc.

[Miroku]

1 hour ago, steve said:

Thanks Miroku!

My apologies, I thought he was Bönpo 

Nah, my apologies for being too pedantic.  It really does not matter that much in the end...

[doc benway]

6 minutes ago, Miroku said:

Nah, my apologies for being too pedantic.  It really does not matter that much in the end...

I’m used to seeing Bönpos wearing blue...

I was lazy!

🤣

[Immortal4life]

Ok this is good info, gives me somewhere start

Edited April 14, 2020 by Immortal4life

[Creation]

On 4/13/2020 at 9:26 PM, Immortal4life said:

So I have more experience as an Indoor internal martial arts practioner than most people you're gonna talk to, and a decent base in authentic Taoist qigong, but I really don't know much about Tantra and Tibetan Yoga. Some of it really, really speaks to me though, I'm really drawn to it.

 

Does anybody know about these, what lineage they come from, who teaches them, how to learn? Where to learn? I wanna get these methods 

 

The ones specifically are the ones I've seen that I'm being called to these days

Hello, 

 

Not all Tibetan Yoga looks like this, in fact most doesn't. The dramatic jumping movements in these videos are called "vajra drops".  It is an amplification of a technique from Indian yoga called "maha vedha mudra" where the body is lifted off the ground by the arms (say, in lotus pose) and dropped a few inches, causing a jolt to the perenium and spine. This is combined with breath retention and muscle locks to bring the prana into the central channel at the lower abdomen more powerfully than breath retention and locks alone. 

 

All Tibetan lineages use breath retention and yogic movements to bring the prana into the central channel and ensure its smooth and balanced flow, but not all of them use these aggressive drops (bep in Tibetan) to amplify the energy.  Acording to scholar-practitioner Ian Baker, drops were introduced into Tibet in Dzogchen termas, and each new generation of termas had a more intense style of drop: first something very mild like in Indian yoga, all the way to vajra drops, that is, jumping from standing and landing in lotus as in the videos you posted, in the Longchen Nyinthig.  Any lineage which has Dzogchen (Kagyu and Nyingma, not sure about Bon) should have this style of yoga, but whether and particular teacher knows it and will teach it is another story!  It is a supplementary practice, only suited for a certain kind of person, with very strict prerequisites.  Clearly, you can hurt yourself not just energetically but physically trying this type of thing.

[jack hammer]

I think this may be the right place to ask this: I once read a buddhist said that in some vajrayana circles,alcohol is known as "wisdom water";is there any truth to this rumour?

[mrpasserby]

'

Edited September 24, 2020 by mrpasserby

[shunka]

On 9/20/2020 at 11:16 AM, jack hammer said:

I think this may be the right place to ask this: I once read a buddhist said that in some vajrayana circles,alcohol is known as "wisdom water";is there any truth to this rumour?

 

Actually, no, you are sort of interrrupting a thread about yoga... might be better in the future to open a new thread

 

but it's ok, you're new, you'll get the hang of it.

 

calling booze "wisdom water" is a sort of tongue-in-cheek joke -- read here for a good explanation

http://www.theiiis.org/wisdom-water-anyone/

 

walk in beauty

shunka

[shunka]

On 9/20/2020 at 4:12 PM, mrpasserby said:

I am not a Buddhism aficionado but I have a lot of experience with, "wisdom water" Lol. 

 

Once a person has inebriated themselves in some way, then they open themselves to any practitioners who can project their Sheut into them. So if they find themselves in the happy circumstances of being in the vicinity of a benevolent human projector of wisdom, then he can possess them and use their body to communicate wisdom, to them and others. 

 

 

BUT if they are  anywhere near something "not benevolent" (or worse daemonic)  they find themselves in a new terrifying world of hurt for themselves and others.

 

and remarkably, that can tie right into this thread:

 

 

thus:

be careful what you consume;

be careful what you open yourself to.

you might just become an aging immortal's next convenient "vessel"

it's not all shiny rainbows and happy unicorns out there.

 

walk in beauty

shunka

Edited September 23, 2020 by shunka
spelling

[shunka]

2 minutes ago, shunka said:

double post, sorry

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by shunka
double post

[mrpasserby]

On 4/13/2020 at 11:30 PM, C T said:

The importance of a teacher in such undertakings cannot be stressed enough. 

These practices have long been considered 'secret' for good reason. 

Not that they're secret because of inaccessibility, but because the nuances and layers are many. 

A teacher with affinity takes on the role of guide, counsellor, revealer of dreams, archaeologist, mentor, protector,

chess partner, even a lover at times (if one is so fortunate to form a heart connection with an authentic dakini). 

 

The most basic approach to begin buddhatantra is the creation of an idea of a mandala and gradually imbue/adorn it with pure objects of one's practice. Over time, the mandala will take on a 3D effect, complete with buddhas, yidams, dakinis, protectors (both peaceful & wrathful), even gods and demons, all symbolizing one's journey towards the centre of the mandala, the bindu, which is where one's buddha potential enjoins with actualization of that same potential (manifestation of Samantabhadra/Samanthabadri). The ultimate fruition of buddhatantra. Its a long & twisty process to the centre because its not linear, nor is it in any way resembling the sort of new age ascension that some seem to believe in. This is why an authentic teacher, one who has fully embodied and perfected this mandala in himself/herself, is crucial. 

C T   Thanks, your post provided me with much cultivation concerning why my spirit guides subtly directed me toward interacting with, an 'authentic dakini'. Also, now I have a greater understanding of the ethereal mandalas, that I have been building for several decades.

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/44876-visualizations-stories-the-mage/

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by mrpasserby
clarifying information

[Immortal4life]

On 2020-09-20 at 10:16 AM, jack hammer said:

I think this may be the right place to ask this: I once read a buddhist said that in some vajrayana circles,alcohol is known as "wisdom water";is there any truth to this rumour?

The buddha's beer is nectar to all sentient beings! No buddha though was ever intoxicated due to drinks not even one bit of intoxication 

[Immortal4life]

Ok so I have a much better idea now of basic buddhist practices like Sadhana, Mantra accumulation, vajrasattva and meditations including shamatha, vipassana, mahamudra, and dzogchen 

 

I met a drikung kagyu teacher and they were accessible and really cool seeming people, very sincere and caring people, but light hearted too.

 

Buddhism can be so crazy sometimes though. It reminds me of a story I heard a long time ago, about like this Island where if sailors landed there, women would feed them lotuses, and then the men would never leave the island and time would pass away like a dream, they'd lose touch with reality

 

That's what buddhism can be, it really takes over your mind, and mind state.

 

Makes you forget reality and mundane activities. Next thing you know months pass and you've disengaged life a bit cuz your mind is always constantly thinking of the dharma, and compassion, and regret, and aversion to samsara, and you read these texts and all you think about is meditating more and getting more into that mind state, or true reality as it is, I won't say I see rigpa, but like the strong aspiration and desire to keep getting at rigpa, letting go into it, getting clearer and more aware every day, takes over your mind and personality.

 

When I started, my worldly activities had strong momentum, and I would also have meditations to energize and engage in my daily life activities. As time goes by though the Buddhist practices keep piling up and taking over

 

Yesterday I couldn't find motivation to engage in life at all. I couldn't find inspiration or interest in doing anything but meditating and reading mahamudra and dzogchen texts, and mantras. All day.

 

Its good, but today I had to force myself to cut out all buddhism, to do tai chi and meditations for health and engaging life, I need to get that balance down again, cuz it got to a point buddhism, and milarepa, and aspirations of love for all beings, and renunciation of samsara was taking over a bit too much. If you meditate on these things and do sadhana's every day, they start habituating even after you are practicing and effecting you all day afterwards.

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Immortal4life

[Creation]

7 hours ago, Immortal4life said:

That's what buddhism can be, it really takes over your mind, and mind state.

You have always seemed to me like someone who gives 100% to what you are interested in.  The thing about mind trainings is they help people who struggle with motivation to develop it.  For those who are naturally motivated to practice but are still living a lay life, hitting the mind trainings as hard as everyone else might not be so important.  Have you talked with your Drikung community about this?  I have serious respect for the Drikung lineage's activities in the West.  If you have received teachings on Vajrayana and Dzogchen, have you received instructions on integrating the practice with daily life?  Just curious, what books on Mahamudra and Dzogchen have you read and gotten benefit from?

[skyblue]

8 hours ago, Immortal4life said:

Ok so I have a much better idea now of basic buddhist practices like Sadhana, Mantra accumulation, vajrasattva and meditations including shamatha, vipassana, mahamudra, and dzogchen 

 

I met a drikung kagyu teacher and they were accessible and really cool seeming people, very sincere and caring people, but light hearted too.

 

Buddhism can be so crazy sometimes though. It reminds me of a story I heard a long time ago, about like this Island where if sailors landed there, women would feed them lotuses, and then the men would never leave the island and time would pass away like a dream, they'd lose touch with reality

 

That's what buddhism can be, it really takes over your mind, and mind state.

 

Makes you forget reality and mundane activities. Next thing you know months pass and you've disengaged life a bit cuz your mind is always constantly thinking of the dharma, and compassion, and regret, and aversion to samsara, and you read these texts and all you think about is meditating more and getting more into that mind state, or true reality as it is, I won't say I see rigpa, but like the strong aspiration and desire to keep getting at rigpa, letting go into it, getting clearer and more aware every day, takes over your mind and personality.

 

When I started, my worldly activities had strong momentum, and I would also have meditations to energize and engage in my daily life activities. As time goes by though the Buddhist practices keep piling up and taking over

 

Yesterday I couldn't find motivation to engage in life at all. I couldn't find inspiration or interest in doing anything but meditating and reading mahamudra and dzogchen texts, and mantras. All day.

 

Its good, but today I had to force myself to cut out all buddhism, to do tai chi and meditations for health and engaging life, I need to get that balance down again, cuz it got to a point buddhism, and milarepa, and aspirations of love for all beings, and renunciation of samsara was taking over a bit too much. If you meditate on these things and do sadhana's every day, they start habituating even after you are practicing and effecting you all day afterwards.

 

 

I have the exact same opinion. Only, I have experienced this phenomenon in lots of Hindu practices as well. If I immerse myself too deeply within them, I'd start to lose touch with my surroundings.

There is a sensation of a loss of grounding which wouldn't come back unless the mind is brought back and relaxed into mundane reality, time and time again.

This is one of the reasons I'm more engaged in Daoist practices as of now, developing qualities within me while I look for certain other things in the people around me, the sky, the trees and just about everything.

 

While they might be helpful on the spiritual path, the disconnect caused from the 'here and now' makes my being rather uncomfortable. So while I haven't completely stopped interacting with Buddhist sutras and Hindu texts, I go about reading them at a slow pace, trying to digest little things and seeing them play out in my day-to-day mundane life. We just have to remember that while the direction is the same, each one of us walks their own dao, their own path.

[Apech]

10 hours ago, Immortal4life said:

Ok so I have a much better idea now of basic buddhist practices like Sadhana, Mantra accumulation, vajrasattva and meditations including shamatha, vipassana, mahamudra, and dzogchen 

 

I met a drikung kagyu teacher and they were accessible and really cool seeming people, very sincere and caring people, but light hearted too.

 

Buddhism can be so crazy sometimes though. It reminds me of a story I heard a long time ago, about like this Island where if sailors landed there, women would feed them lotuses, and then the men would never leave the island and time would pass away like a dream, they'd lose touch with reality

 

That's what buddhism can be, it really takes over your mind, and mind state.

 

Makes you forget reality and mundane activities. Next thing you know months pass and you've disengaged life a bit cuz your mind is always constantly thinking of the dharma, and compassion, and regret, and aversion to samsara, and you read these texts and all you think about is meditating more and getting more into that mind state, or true reality as it is, I won't say I see rigpa, but like the strong aspiration and desire to keep getting at rigpa, letting go into it, getting clearer and more aware every day, takes over your mind and personality.

 

When I started, my worldly activities had strong momentum, and I would also have meditations to energize and engage in my daily life activities. As time goes by though the Buddhist practices keep piling up and taking over

 

Yesterday I couldn't find motivation to engage in life at all. I couldn't find inspiration or interest in doing anything but meditating and reading mahamudra and dzogchen texts, and mantras. All day.

 

Its good, but today I had to force myself to cut out all buddhism, to do tai chi and meditations for health and engaging life, I need to get that balance down again, cuz it got to a point buddhism, and milarepa, and aspirations of love for all beings, and renunciation of samsara was taking over a bit too much. If you meditate on these things and do sadhana's every day, they start habituating even after you are practicing and effecting you all day afterwards.

 

 

That's interesting - because I find exactly the opposite.  I would naturally retreat and abstract myself from everyday life which I find a bit pointless and disturbing.  But if I practice mind-training and sadhanas etc. I feel and am much more engaged with others and 'the world' generally.

 

 

[doc benway]

I think these experiences help us to understand why there are so many traditions and practices within each tradition.

There is no best or most accurate system. One practice or system can not be said to be better than another.

That which brings us closer to the truth of our fundamental nature depends largely on us as individuals.

This is because what we need to connect with the source depends on what specifically is blocking that connection.

 

edit

 

I'm always amused when people talk about practices and systems in terms of what is best or better, this versus that. Questions and judgements like that are meaningless without individual context and cannot be generalized, IMO.

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

I'm always amused when people talk about practices and systems in terms of what is best or better, this versus that. Questions and judgements like that are meaningless without individual context and cannot be generalized, IMO.

 

Yes!  It's so easy for us to think that what works for us will work for others but that's not always the case.  What's important is the fit between a person and a practice.  This is true of so many things; my partner and I both take prescription medications that work well for us but I'd never suggest Jose take my medication or take his.  Another area where the importance of individual context is often underappreciated: diet.

[Immortal4life]

On 11/01/2022 at 10:27 AM, Apech said:

 

That's interesting - because I find exactly the opposite.  I would naturally retreat and abstract myself from everyday life which I find a bit pointless and disturbing.  But if I practice mind-training and sadhanas etc. I feel and am much more engaged with others and 'the world' generally.

 

 

Actually yeah what you’re describing is not so different from what I meant. It’s like I started grasping less to daily life especially interacting with others. Which I absolutely love doing.

 

I didn’t mean to suggest I was less engaged or less aware, or that my mind was dulled in any way, no to the contrary meditation always makrs me more alert and clear. It's just that I stopped grasping at things to the point of not really desiring to follow thoughts or desires.

 

Back when I wrote this what I had in mind was that I had recently been to a dispensary and the girl behind the counter was pretty cute and I liked her. But my mind was just not really grasping at anything. I was not really following desires or thoughts, I felt like my desire had sort of lost its root. It was there but it’s root was weak so I didnt follow it.

 

normally I’d try to flirt, get a number, hell even try to pull her to go with me in The back room while there aren’t any other customers. Not saying that’s realistic, I’ve never actually pulled that off, taking a girl into the back room While she’s working, but the point is, as a man you tried. That’s what counts. It's one thing to just back away, hesitate, or get nervous, and be disappointed with yourself, but it's a weird thing to not think to or desire to.

 

But I didn’t try, I just started finding pleasure in breathing in prana/qi/universal life force and being aware of my channels, or just emptying my mind even while in public. Like even when talking to a cute girl my mind just went to my breath, my channels circulating, and wanted to go in a meditating state. That was bizarre and it was becoming habituated.

 

i feel I have a better balance now, engaging life more, meditating a lot still, gaining bliss, but also engaging life and always going for what I want as a man when I see it. 
 

I’m actually very happy and blissful and have sex with endless girls.

 

Like a wish fulfilling jewel of women 

 

I wish I had this ability to seduce when I was like 18 I would have had insane amounts of sex

Edited November 22, 2022 by Immortal4life

[Immortal4life]

On 2022-01-11 at 7:10 AM, Creation said:

You have always seemed to me like someone who gives 100% to what you are interested in.  The thing about mind trainings is they help people who struggle with motivation to develop it.  For those who are naturally motivated to practice but are still living a lay life, hitting the mind trainings as hard as everyone else might not be so important.  Have you talked with your Drikung community about this?  I have serious respect for the Drikung lineage's activities in the West.  If you have received teachings on Vajrayana and Dzogchen, have you received instructions on integrating the practice with daily life?  Just curious, what books on Mahamudra and Dzogchen have you read and gotten benefit from?

At this point quite a few, I don’t wanna say too much or reveal what I study or give anything away for trolls to search me out, but I especially found the Ganges Mahamudra instructions  by Tiliopa to be insightful, lots of finger pointing instructions, seeing through naked awareness by padmasambhava, lamp to dispel darkness, flight of the Garuda by Shabkar Tsodrug Randrol, The Excellent path to enlightenment Jigten Sumgon’s 5 fold mahamudra, Manjushri clear wisdom dzogchen, are a few off the top of my head

Edited November 22, 2022 by Immortal4life

[Immortal4life]

Still haven’t learned any Trul Khor or Tummo yet which is what first caught my attention towards and got me interested in Buddhism in the first place though lol. Only very simple basic Tummo explanations, probably just to appease the interest a bit, like visualizing a flame below the navel, which can be connected I think to tonglen meditation or giving and receiving meditation, and “subtle breath” training.

[Immortal4life]

I'm just so drawn to the practices like the ones on this video though, like to develop the life energy, especially in the morning to carry through the rest of the day, and whole life. 

 

I dont know why but I cant shake my desire to know these practices, I'm inexplicably drawn to this Yoga, like theres a deep desire in me to know this type of practice, cant even really explain why.

 

I think just based on my previous background, like in other non Buddhist meditation and qigong systems, these practices seem to ring as true, authentic, and powerful to me,  but it's also strangely coming from deep within me. It's weird.

 

 

[Creation]

The people I respect who are interested in authentic tummo have found Lama Glenn Mullin and Dr Nida to have the highest quality publicly available instruction. 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Creation

[Apech]

[Xau]

I've been reading your posts and found it very useful and interesting since I've been doing research about the same practices that I also feel very attracted it to (i.e Tibetan Buddhist Yoga, Tantra, Truhl Khor, Tummo). One of the posts mentioned " a karmic calling " and most likely that's what it is. I was wondering if you have been able to find any DVDs or online reliable instruction in these practices?

I've been doing Qigong for some years and find it very useful, but I also think the practices in the videos you shared look very authentic and powerful which I also think is very important, not very interested in diluted practices that do not have the authentic essence. The Tibetan documentary mentioned that the practices are basically diluted  for the West. The East gets the complete teachings.Today, I was watching a documentary about the Tibetans and it mentioned that it originated in India which makes sense and explains why India is so advanced in these teachings, Tantra, Yoga etc..

The training by Dr. Nida Chenagtsang is very interesting but very expensive, $3k. Have you find any type of training that is visual, DVDs or video online that is priced more reasonable? I tried to send you a direct message but it shows " Immortal4life cannot receive messages. " I would appreciate your help, thank you

On 11/22/2022 at 11:46 AM, Immortal4life said:

I'm just so drawn to the practices like the ones on this video though, like to develop the life energy, especially in the morning to carry through the rest of the day, and whole life. 

 

I dont know why but I cant shake my desire to know these practices, I'm inexplicably drawn to this Yoga, like theres a deep desire in me to know this type of practice, cant even really explain why.

 

I think just based on my previous background, like in other non Buddhist meditation and qigong systems, these practices seem to ring as true, authentic, and powerful to me,  but it's also strangely coming from deep within me. It's weird.

 

 

 

Edited May 21 by Xau

[Immortal4life]

Well, I went out and found Drikung Kagyu teachers in person, and have been doing lots of practice including mahamudra, dzogchen, vajrayogini, and chod. I dont think the drikung kagyu teachings are diluted, apparently they're teaching things openly they would have never taught publically before. I do find Dr. Nida to be very interesting, though I haven't studied with him or practiced his teachings.