Question about Tibetan Buddhist Yoga, Tantra, Truhl Khor, Tummo, etc.

[Immortal4life]

So I have more experience as an Indoor internal martial arts practioner than most people you're gonna talk to, and a decent base in authentic Taoist qigong, but I really don't know much about Tantra and Tibetan Yoga. Some of it really, really speaks to me though, I'm really drawn to it.

 

Does anybody know about these, what lineage they come from, who teaches them, how to learn? Where to learn? I wanna get these methods 

 

The ones specifically are the ones I've seen that I'm being called to these days

 

This one especially is calling to me

 

And this

 

How did white people get this practice? It looks good and powerful and so beautiful and like a very high vibrational level of spirtual practice 

 

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, Immortal4life said:

So I have more experience as an Indoor internal martial arts practioner than most people you're gonna talk to

 

Which lineage, what styles, who are the teachers, and how do you qualify your experience and skill to represent your accomplishment?

 

As for Tibetan practices you ask about, one member here has experience in it, but he is on holiday and not checking this forum at the moment. 

[Immortal4life]

The last thing I want is random people messaging my teacher saying Immortal4life was mean on a forum, I no like him why you teach him, he’s a douchbag, blah, blah, lol😂

 

I’m an indoor student in the inner family Chen Tai Chi, and 6 Harmony Xinyi. Also train Yin style and Shi style Bagua.

 

also Wudang chi king and Dayan Wild goose 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Immortal4life

[Earl Grey]

On 4/14/2020 at 11:51 AM, Immortal4life said:

The last thing I want is random people messaging my teacher saying Immortal4life was mean on a forum, I no like him why you teach him, he’s a douchbag, blah, blah, lol😂

 

I don't do that, but sucks if people have done that to you already, though I don't think they would know you by your avatar unless you told them.

 

On 4/14/2020 at 11:51 AM, Immortal4life said:

I’m an indoor student in the inner family Chen Tai Chi, and 6 Harmony Xinyi. Also train Yin style and Shi style Bagua.

 

 

Nice, I do Xin Yi too under Rodriguez, Yang Taijiquan under Eric Randolph (successor of Glenn Hairston), and Liang style Bagua.  EDIT: I am no longer associated with Eric Randolph

 

On 4/14/2020 at 11:51 AM, Immortal4life said:

also Wudang chi king and Dayan Wild goose 

 

 

Cool.

 

On 4/14/2020 at 11:51 AM, Immortal4life said:

Have spent quite a bit of time training Science of Being with the head Lightbearers but not quite at instructor level

 

Never heard. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Earl Grey

[Earl Grey]

Here's what is important to consider:

You sound attracted to preliminary practices instead of the actual meat of tantric Buddhism, this is the major concern.

 

Flying Phoenix is basically a Tummo practice with a Daoist twist. Very powerful and accessible also.

 

You could try Kriya Yoga and traditional Bön teachings also. The latter has a lot in common with Vajrayana.

 

The caveat for Yantra Yoga is that it is basically meant for cleansing the body and preparing for Tummo. It might be okay, but nothing necessary for a person with extensive and genuine IMA background. His body should already rewired and fit for Tummo practices then, and it can be accessed and stimulated by other more skillful means than an extensive routine of postures.

 

Tummo requires lineage empowerment to be really useful. It's traditionally practiced and developed in long retreats (about 5 hours a day for over two months), so I wonder about the householder adaptability.

 

Trul Khor in some Bön teaching cycles at least is focused on opening kati channels and introducing pure visions. The practice will not be much benefit if the practitioner hasn't got a stable foundation in dzogchen atiyoga, so that he recognizes the natural state of mind.

 

Look deeper where these practices are leading into. Don't get entangled and infatuated with physical forms only.

 

Drop mystification, but examine carefully why and about what you are really interested.

 

@C T and @steve probably have more insight on this, and when he returns, @virtue too. 

[Immortal4life]

What's the background of Flying pheonix? Where does it come from, how did it develop, what's it's history etc.? How does a Tibetan practice have a Taoist twist?

 

If Tummo requires authetic lineage, well that makes sense, but what is the lineage? Who are the teachers and what is their lineage?

 

Yoga is something I wanna get into, but don't even know what is authentic and good, or what is flakey, watered down, and fake starting out.

 

All I can really go on is what I observe in the physical forms starting out, since I haven't learned the meditation or more subtle aspects right?

[C T]

The importance of a teacher in such undertakings cannot be stressed enough. 

These practices have long been considered 'secret' for good reason. 

Not that they're secret because of inaccessibility, but because the nuances and layers are many. 

A teacher with affinity takes on the role of guide, counsellor, revealer of dreams, archaeologist, mentor, protector,

chess partner, even a lover at times (if one is so fortunate to form a heart connection with an authentic dakini). 

 

The most basic approach to begin buddhatantra is the creation of an idea of a mandala and gradually imbue/adorn it with pure objects of one's practice. Over time, the mandala will take on a 3D effect, complete with buddhas, yidams, dakinis, protectors (both peaceful & wrathful), even gods and demons, all symbolizing one's journey towards the centre of the mandala, the bindu, which is where one's buddha potential enjoins with actualization of that same potential (manifestation of Samantabhadra/Samanthabadri). The ultimate fruition of buddhatantra. Its a long & twisty process to the centre because its not linear, nor is it in any way resembling the sort of new age ascension that some seem to believe in. This is why an authentic teacher, one who has fully embodied and perfected this mandala in himself/herself, is crucial. 

 

 

 

All the best on your quest. 

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, Immortal4life said:

What's the background of Flying pheonix? Where does it come from, how did it develop, what's it's history etc.?

 

http://www.taichimania.com/chikung_catalog.html

 

Quote

Chi Kung For Health is a ground-breaking DVD series by Terry Dunn that teaches the very rare and powerful Flying Phoenix Heavenly Healing Chi Meditations ("Fei Feng San Gung"), a remarkable system of medical qigong created more than 400 years ago by a legendary Taoist sage, Feng Tao Teh, at Ehrmei Mountain in Szechuan Province who traveled much of his life throughout China's western frontier and Tibet exploring and developing martial, yogic, and spiritual arts.  Flying Phoenix Qigong is a complete Taoist monastic system of hygienics --comprised of standing and seated, stationary and moving meditations that imparts a wide range of salient health benefits: increased respiratory power, improved circulation and metabolism, well-regulated sleep and resulting higher energy levels, improved neuro-muscular function and balance, strengthened immunity, increased bone strength, and the allostatic reversal of many signs of aging. Its long term practice activates man's latent healing potential and cultivates a superabundance of the distinctively tangible and visible Flying Phoenix Energy (Chi) that has extraordinary healing properties unlike any type of energy generated by any Yoga known to man.

 

Flying Phoenix Qigong imparts its remarkable health benefits through a yogic mechanism that brings all the organ functions of the body under the regulation of the subconscious mind. This mysterious super-regulating process and energy cultivation is brought on by each of the 24 Flying Phoenix Mediations, which consists of (A) an easy-to-do breath-control formula followed by (B) a meditation in repose or a serene moving meditation using repetitive natural movements that are done three times slower than typical Tai Chi form practice. The esoteric breathing formula ignites a specific flow of energy in the body; the paired posture and movements reinforces the circulation of that energy through specific orbs of the body. Flying Phoenix Qigong is easier to learn and retain than Tai Chi and its health benefits are more numerous, salient, and immediate.

 

Terry Dunn is a seventh generation preserver of the Bai Hu Pai tradition and has made this remarkable and hitherto secret art of Flying Phoenix Qigong available on video as a safe, precise, dynamic and self-regulated exercise regimen for natural self-healing, yogic empowerment, and spiritual illumination.  This highly acclaimed Chi Kung For Health DVD series presents clear and detailed, step-by-step instruction in 24 Flying Phoenix Qigong exercises that one can learn and practice  without the in-person supervision of a Qigong master. The art is so safe and fool-proof because its method is simple and brilliantly "user-friendly", while its benefits are advanced and sophisticated.

 

 

[Immortal4life]

It says the energy is not like any Yoga in that article. How is it like Tummo then?
 

it sounds decent enough. It looks simple, much simpler than Tai Chi, without a lot of full body movement, more stationary. I do a lot of Chi Kung methods, how is it different from 8 peices of brocade, muscle tendon change, and many other ones like that? I guess that’s what you mean when you say Chi Kung already prepares you for things like Tummo?

Edited April 14, 2020 by Immortal4life

[Earl Grey]

20 minutes ago, Immortal4life said:

It says the energy is not like any Yoga in that article. How is it like Tummo?

 

I don't believe it is like Tummo specifically, but Terry Dunn can answer on his thread. 

 

20 minutes ago, Immortal4life said:

I do a lot of Chi Kung methods, how is it different from 8 peices of brocade, muscle tendon change, and many other ones like that?

 

Works in a manner that does not reflect TCM--it's its own formula and has its own pharmacology system too that don't reflect anything in TCM too. It's a healing practice with intelligent qi that heals many things. 

 

20 minutes ago, Immortal4life said:

I guess that’s what you mean when you say Chi Kung already prepares you for things like Tummo?

 

I believe Tummo becomes somewhat moot when doing this, but some students have practiced Wim Hof and other pranayama at different times of the day outside for their FP practice. You can post on the thread and see what some say. 

 

UPDATE: 

Many yogi friends of @virtue have commented that its energy is remarkably similar to advanced Tummo.

There are a lot of similarities in how the energy arises in the spinal column and then spreads around the body. Comparatively, at first Tummo energy is very harsh and fierce. Later it refines into subtle and gently blissful. FP begins with gentle bliss and stays like that.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Earl Grey

[Immortal4life]

Tummo seems like something else, it's own thing.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Immortal4life

[Earl Grey]

14 minutes ago, Immortal4life said:

Tummo seems like something else, it's own thing.

 

The FP Tummo is more nourishing to the physical body. Tantric Tummo is more for mind purification comparatively. This is because empowered Tummo includes the blessings of the Buddhas as a way of its function.

 

Both are very beneficial to health.

 

There are many lineages giving exclusive and different Tummo empowerments. Either they have the same core principles with different ritual surface or means to access the energy, or they are all fundamentally different and there is no shared Tummo in essence.

Please remember the legend that FP was taught by a Goddess in a vision. Its energy is divine and intelligent.

[Immortal4life]

That's just the legend though. The actual practices are a different thing.  To say "don't get stuck on the practice itself"  comes across like a cop out.

[Earl Grey]

1 minute ago, Immortal4life said:

That's just the legend though.

 

A lot of practices could be argued to "just be legends" but the many experiences of people in the thread show otherwise, especially when confirmed by Eric Isen. One member, who had no background or interest in Buddhism, saw Buddhist imagery during FP meditation.

 

1 minute ago, Immortal4life said:

The actual practices are a different thing.

 

Nope.

 

2 minutes ago, Immortal4life said:

To say "don't get stuck on the practice itself"  comes across like a cop out.

 

It's your choice. If you are attracted to Buddhist Tummo, then you clearly have a karmic calling.

 

I would just remind that practicing tantric Tummo and FP don't exclude each other. FP doesn't weaken tantra Tummo, but greatly enhances it. The practices are thus complementary and supportive.

 

Please note I am not selling you on the practice of FP. I am only clarifying information for others who may stumble across this mentioning of FP in relation to the yogas. I am neither representing Sifu Terry nor teaching FP; I merely oversee his thread in his absence.

[Immortal4life]

No, I have nothing against Flying pheonix, it seems kinda cool.  Just not convinced it's the same thing as the videos in the OP.  Those are full on Yogas, with Yoga like movements, mudras etc.They're  quite different,  just like as you say it's different from TCM based Chi Kungs. It honestly seems more like Chi Kung than Yoga to me.

[Miroku]

The methods there are from Drikung Kagyu, especially the first video. As for "getting those methods" it does not work that way. Those are given only to qualified students, who go through ngöndro (4x100 000 repititions of preparatory practices) and then other meditations. Not to mention that most of them are secret one way or another. If you just want some tibetan yoga, try nejang, that is a healing yoga, or Yantra Yoga, but even in Yantra Yoga you cannot do everything as some methods are for practitioners only. 

Tibetan Buddhist methods are not like taichi, for most of them you ought to adopt the entire system, not just cherry pick what you like. Ofc there are some systems which are open, mostly in bön, but even there it is usually for people interested in the teachings as a whole.

[Immortal4life]

Ah thanks, this is kind of what I was asking.

 

It makes sense that you would want to get the whole tradition and system, not just some Tibetan Yoga. The third video shows that some white people have gotten some of this stuff at least.

 

Tai chi you also wanna train the whole system and get the whole lineage. It's also just as rare, even more, for a westerner to get the lineage. Almost no westerners have it, and very few chinese have the Tai Chi lineage.

 

This gives me somewhere to start researching though. Is the Drikung Kagyu lineage available anywhere in North America or only in Tibet?

Edited April 14, 2020 by Immortal4life

[Miroku]

It is in america, it is basically everywhere nowadays. But you are missing the point that those lineages are very restricted and mostly not taught openly. Most of them require years of practice and many are given only in 3 year retreats. But you do you.

The problem is not with "westerners getting the lineage" it is with westerners rarely having the time, resources and strenght to do years of strict retreat. There are several western practitioners who are quite successful.

 

My main point is. If you just want those yogas, you are wasting your time. Those are done for enlightenment and as a help on that path, not to get healthy and bendy.

[C T]

19 minutes ago, Miroku said:

It is in america, it is basically everywhere nowadays. But you are missing the point that those lineages are very restricted and mostly not taught openly. Most of them require years of practice and many are given only in 3 year retreats. But you do you.

The problem is not with "westerners getting the lineage" it is with westerners rarely having the time, resources and strenght to do years of strict retreat. There are several western practitioners who are quite successful.

 

My main point is. If you just want those yogas, you are wasting your time. Those are done for enlightenment and as a help on that path, not to get healthy and bendy.

 

Correct, and even if someone is given the full explanation/commentary/methods of a particular tantra, say for example, one that leads to fruition of atiyoga, it would be useless, or even counterproductive without also taking on board the whole system of practice. The intricacies within the system are usually what stump a curious practitioner, as opposed to a committed one. People think its possible for authentic Tummo to be a standalone practice, so they say, "Oh! Tummo! That sounds like a fab thing to cultivate", and they try to replicate it from books and stuff. The problem with such an approach is not that there won't see results - its that they will taste some effect - and needless to say, this can often open a whole new can of worms, ranging from injury to the subtle body, to delusion, to psychosis even. They fail to grasp the essentials and therefore have no understanding of the perimeters, the preliminaries, the ritual aspects, precision-like visualizations, the opening, middle and close of the practice, the dedication of merit and so on. Even if these points are stressed in a manual (and the good ones normally do, like one that details the Six Dharmas of Naropa aka Six Yogas of Naropa - the base for Tummo), it will still stump most people with plenty of like WTF moments. Tummo is a completion stage practice, preceded by generation stage practices. Having an in-depth understanding of the system and how to apply it is so important. Tummo on its own without the support of gyulu, osel, milam, bardo & phowa practices will not lead to fruition. It will be like a tree where fruits cannot reach maturity - they fall off before fully ripening. 

 

 

 

 

[doc benway]

I don't have time to read through the thread right now but here is some info and a few resources -

 

The top video in the OP is Yungdrung Bön Tsa Lung Trul Khor practice from one of the three dzogchen lineages in Bön, the Zhangzhung Nyuengyüd lineage. This lineage is unique and precious to the Bön as it is unbroken, never hidden and recovered as terma. That's very rare.

 

I studied Daoist meditation, qigong, neigong, and internal martial arts intensively for about 12 years. Then I found Bön and never looked back. There are marked similarities between Dao meditation, qigong, neigong, and Tibetan practices. The primary similarities are to the tantric lineages which is where practices like Tsa Lung, Trul Khor, Tummo, and other breathing and body movement practices come from. Tantra, very much like neigong and qigong, works a lot with the body-energy (breath) -mind connection. The primary purpose of these practices, like in yoga, is to clear obstacles to energetic flow and balance to allow deeper connection to the source of being.

 

There are Tibetan lamas teaching these things in the West as well as some Westerners. One such teacher is a good friend of mine, Alejandro Chaoul. He was trained partly here in the states by my teacher, Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. He got the majority of his Trul Khor training in Bön monasteries in Nepal and India. He was leading annual Trul Khor workshops for the past few years at the Serenity Ridge retreat center in Virginia. Of course, that is currently on hold but hopefully there will be one in the Fall. He is currently offering an online introductory Trul Khor training program. It is not the same set as demonstrated in the video above, it is the set associated with the A Khrid dzogchen lineage. It's a bit less physically challenging and the best place to start if interested in the training. The online course is offered through Wisdom Publications and would be a great way to get a taste - https://wisdomexperience.org/courses/tibetan-yoga/

 

There is a comprehensive book on the subject by Tempa Dukte Lama with Olmo Ling Institute in Pittsburgh. Here is a link to info on the book - https://www.olmoling.org/contents/thrul_khor_ancient_tibetan_bon_yoga/. Alejandro also wrote a book on the subject, albeit a bit less comprehensive - https://www.amazon.com/Tibetan-Yoga-Health-Well-Being-Practice/dp/1401954340.

 

There are ways to get some free instruction in the more fundamental practices of 9 Breathings of Purification and Tsa Lung from Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche of Ligmincha International and others, such as Geshe Chaphur at Gyalshen Institute in California or Geshe Yongdong in British Columbia at Sherab Chamma Ling. All do in person retreats, Zoom teachings, some Facebook teachings, prerecorded courses. Lot's of options! Here is one way to do get started - https://ligminchalearning.com/starting-a-meditation-practice/. This is a free course on basic Bön practices that includes instruction in the 9 Breathings and Tsa Lung. All of these are offered will full permission and support of the lamas and the lineage. 

 

Teachings on Tummo are scheduled for the summer retreat this year at Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's retreat center at Serenity Ridge. It's currently being considered that this retreat may be offered online rather than in person due to the pandemic situation. More info will be coming soon but is not yet posted. Keep an eye on the ligmincha.org webpage if you are interested. You will need to put in some significant time working with the 9 Breathings and Tsa Lung before studying Tummo but it should be possible if you are committed. 

 

I'll come back later and read through the thread and see if there's anything else worth mentioning.

Be well everyone

[Vajra Fist]

There's also these DVDs. I did have them in online form at some point but have probably lost them now. They seemed pretty demanding physically.

 

http://www.yantrayoga.net/project/tibetan-yoga-of-movement-dvd-level-1

[Miroku]

6 hours ago, C T said:

 

Correct, and even if someone is given the full explanation/commentary/methods of a particular tantra, say for example, one that leads to fruition of atiyoga, it would be useless, or even counterproductive without also taking on board the whole system of practice. The intricacies within the system are usually what stump a curious practitioner, as opposed to a committed one. People think its possible for authentic Tummo to be a standalone practice, so they say, "Oh! Tummo! That sounds like a fab thing to cultivate", and they try to replicate it from books and stuff. The problem with such an approach is not that there won't see results - its that they will taste some effect - and needless to say, this can often open a whole new can of worms, ranging from injury to the subtle body, to delusion, to psychosis even. They fail to grasp the essentials and therefore have no understanding of the perimeters, the preliminaries, the ritual aspects, precision-like visualizations, the opening, middle and close of the practice, the dedication of merit and so on. Even if these points are stressed in a manual (and the good ones normally do, like one that details the Six Dharmas of Naropa aka Six Yogas of Naropa - the base for Tummo), it will still stump most people with plenty of like WTF moments. Tummo is a completion stage practice, preceded by generation stage practices. Having an in-depth understanding of the system and how to apply it is so important. Tummo on its own without the support of gyulu, osel, milam, bardo & phowa practices will not lead to fruition. It will be like a tree where fruits cannot reach maturity - they fall off before fully ripening. 

 

 

 

 

Preach! 

 

You are right. Not to mention that without refuge and bodhicitta all of Buddhism turns into fancy mindfulness meditation and shamanism. One is better off not practicing without the basic stuff. There is a reason why the situation of a Vajrayana practitioner is compared to the one of a snake in a bamboo, either goes up or down. Without bodhicitta and refuge vajrayana and it's methods are a fancy vehicle to lower realms.

[Miroku]

2 hours ago, steve said:

I don't have time to read through the thread right now but here is some info and a few resources -

 

The top video in the OP is Yungdrung Bön Tsa Lung Trul Khor practice from one of the three dzogchen lineages in Bön, the Zhangzhung Nyuengyüd lineage. This lineage is unique and precious to the Bön as it is unbroken, never hidden and recovered as terma. That's very rare.

 

Just a correction, the top video in OP is of a Drikung Kagyu practitioner and the video is taken from the documentary Yogis of Tibet. But I guess many of the movements are fairly similar. Anyway thank you for the Bön view as it is quite different in this aspect.

[doc benway]

Thanks Miroku!

My apologies, I thought he was Bönpo 

[thelerner]

Below is a video of Tibetans doing traditional Tummo. 

What I like about it, is the 'nothing special' nature of it.  Not that there's not huge training behind it, but there's nothing flashy, we see them sitting. 

..

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by thelerner
no longer phrased as a question