Filling the Dan Tien

[CloudHands]

37 minutes ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

 

Trying to make me talk ?

 

Yep there is a huge gap between early daoist texts and posterior religious developments. That's how I interpret your quotes.

 

Edit : but clearly some practices help a lot practically (IMHO)

Edited May 8, 2020 by CloudHands

[Maddie]

I've noticed sometimes my LDT starts buzzing or vibrating even when I'm not actively breathing into it but like spontaneously and I wonder why this is?

[Wilhelm]

On 5/6/2020 at 10:53 AM, freeform said:

But there’s a really important point regarding Ting - and that’s how one uses listening as a form of absorption into form... if you Ting your body, you’re infusing your mind into the object of the full body.

 

At first it’s at a surface level - literally at the surface of the skin where you’re able to feel easily.
 

Once you’ve done some qigong or Neigong (or Taiji) and your ‘internal body’ is awake and animated, your listening suffuses deeper into the tissues...

 

Over time - as your skill increases, your mind will suffuse into the totality if your body - even at the cellular level - and this is how all the major qualities (like ‘filling’ in Taiji or generating Qi in Neigong) is accomplished. 

 

On 5/6/2020 at 11:03 AM, freeform said:

There’s a subtle distinction that might not be coming across clearly from Damo.

 

Its not a ‘soft focus’ that he’s talking about - it’s something fundamentally different - a kind of meditative absorption that is qualitatively different from focus (whether strong or hard - narrow or diffused)... 

 

Really getting the full impact of what this means and does completely transformed my experience of the internal arts. Ting is a fundamentally important principle - and it’s a tricky one to develop.

 

If anything - Ting used in this way is far more effective and far more ‘dangerous’ than even forced focus. But it’s dangerous not because it might cause stagnation (like focused intention does) - but (assuming a couple of other principles are in place) - it can generate far more Qi than your system can handle.

Sorry - big bump of old thread!

 

I've been thinking about this post for weeks now.  What are the necessary prerequisites to approach this kind of work?  If your Nei Gong/Taiji practice has naturally evolved to the point where you're absorbing into the body at such a granular level (which I don't think I'm at yet FWIW) is it already safe to do this?

[Sahaja]

 it is interesting how when the awareness sinks from the head to the lower abdomen how the tissues/body moves/reacts  when it arrives there. I am sure I am far from using ting effectively but even from a novice perspective I can see the efficacy of the practice. The fact that my first physical experience of this phenomena was before I’d heard about ting  or the sinking practice  sort of reinforces this for me too. 

[freeform]

10 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

 

Sorry - big bump of old thread!

 

I've been thinking about this post for weeks now.  What are the necessary prerequisites to approach this kind of work?  If your Nei Gong/Taiji practice has naturally evolved to the point where you're absorbing into the body at such a granular level (which I don't think I'm at yet FWIW) is it already safe to do this?

Re-reading that quote - now seems a bit dramatic 😄

 

It’s dangerous not in an acute sort of way… you’re not likely to blow a fuse in your head or something (though never say never! 😅).

 

It’s more a case of ‘be carful what you wish for’.

 

More Qi means more ‘you’…

 

If ‘you’ is a mostly wholesome process then that’s great.

 

If ‘you’ isn't a pleasant experience - then you’ll know about it.

 

In reality, most people who do manage to generate more than the ‘natural’ amount of qi will usually leak it - whether through emotion or hyperactivity or base desires or even literally leak the qi from various holes in the energy body.

 

Basically - if you were able to genuinely generate a high surplus of qi, it will start to feel like you’re on some sort of drug… you can feel euphoric/confident/very vital and full of energy… It’s not subtle.

 

Feeling this sort of euphoric high suggests that your system isn’t fully able to handle it… but I think that’s probably part of the process… everyone goes through that and regains balance… 

 

Kinda like when you’re new to exercise and you feel sore the next day means you’ve overshot your body’s balance… but it’s expected.

 

If you have a genuine system and teacher that takes you beyond that then it’s probably safe  

Edited February 10, 2023 by freeform

[liminal_luke]

On 5/6/2020 at 8:03 AM, freeform said:

There’s a subtle distinction that might not be coming across clearly from Damo.

 

Its not a ‘soft focus’ that he’s talking about - it’s something fundamentally different - a kind of meditative absorption that is qualitatively different from focus (whether strong or hard - narrow or diffused)... 

 

Really getting the full impact of what this means and does completely transformed my experience of the internal arts. Ting is a fundamentally important principle - and it’s a tricky one to develop.

 

 

Not sure I'm understanding this but it reminds me of something my Zapchen used to talk about.  Say she asked me to be aware of a spinal vertebrae.  I normally experience myself as being in my head and I'd direct the awareness from my head to the vertebrae.  This is different from the vertebrae being aware of itself.  Am I sort of in the right ballpark or are you talking about something entirely different?

[freeform]

8 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Not sure I'm understanding this but it reminds me of something my Zapchen used to talk about.  Say she asked me to be aware of a spinal vertebrae.  I normally experience myself as being in my head and I'd direct the awareness from my head to the vertebrae.  This is different from the vertebrae being aware of itself.  Am I sort of in the right ballpark or are you talking about something entirely different?

Yeah sort of - just a very Daoist version of that 😅

 

What makes it Daoist is what I’ve seen Adam Mizner call ‘mind fluid’… your attention becomes like a substance that suffuses its object.

 

What makes it ‘absorption’ (as I describe it) is that the ‘listener’ (or ‘observer’) starts to fade out and all that’s left is the object.

 

So yes ‘the vertebrae observing itself’ is right… it’s like there remains nothing but the vertebra at the far extreme. Just as when you’re so absorbed in what you’re doing (playing music/knitting/writing code/some sort of sport) that ‘you’ fade away - and all that is left is what you’re doing.

 

So in effect it’s two things:

1 -‘suffusion’ - meaning the depth of penetration of awareness. 

2 - ‘absorption’ - the level to which one’s self is able to get out of the way.

[dwai]

15 hours ago, freeform said:

Basically - if you were able to genuinely generate a high surplus of qi, it will start to feel like you’re on some sort of drug… you can feel euphoric/confident/very vital and full of energy… It’s not subtle.

 

Feeling this sort of euphoric high suggests that your system isn’t fully able to handle it… but I think that’s probably part of the process… everyone goes through that and regains balance… 

In my experience there is initially a body-high which is indeed like being intoxicated with some exhilarating substance. It transforms into a very empty clarity. The body buzz doesn’t go away really, but the mind, which was under the sway of the buzz becomes free. 

[Sahaja]

Definitely feel nice from the chi, even at my beginner level. Nicer still when it shows externally as kindness and service.
 

Sad to see so many obsessed with phenomena hunting or the most perfect system/teacher when they could redirect that energy and find something much closer by  that is still worthwhile. Like the perfect being the enemy of the good. 

 

[-_sometimes]

On 10/02/2023 at 11:35 PM, freeform said:

If ‘you’ isn't a pleasant experience - then you’ll know about it.

 

This seems to be common descriptor of generating lots of qi - it acts as an amplifier of sorts for whatever your nature is. For people who don't have a wholesome outcome when there's more of 'them', what can be done? If qi does not transform, what does? Is it cultivating virtue, mental training / discipline? You've mentioned many accounts of skilled qigong practitioners who go haywire basically leaking qi through base desires. How is this sort of development prevented?

[freeform]

3 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

 

This seems to be common descriptor of generating lots of qi - it acts as an amplifier of sorts for whatever your nature is. For people who don't have a wholesome outcome when there's more of 'them', what can be done? If qi does not transform, what does? Is it cultivating virtue, mental training / discipline? You've mentioned many accounts of skilled qigong practitioners who go haywire basically leaking qi through base desires. How is this sort of development prevented?

Xing-Ming 

building qi, Dantien, clearing channels etc - that’s the Ming side of the practice… the Xing side is developing virtue, humility, awareness, transforming the heart-mind etc.

 

At the start Xing and Ming are separate categories of practice… but eventually as the mind is transformed, they start to combine…

 

Once you reorient your cultivation towards spirit, the qi you build starts to support the flourishing of the Original Self rather than the Acquired Self.

 

[Antares]

30 minutes ago, freeform said:

the Xing side is developing virtue

 

Is not the virtue the result of Xing - Ming interaction? 

[Sahaja]

Seems there is theoretical discussion of Ming to Xing or Xing to Ming but whenever it gets to discussion of application seems the two influence each other in such fundamental ways that making the differentiation seems more of an academic framework  than a practical guide. The other comment I’d make is it seems to me that the concept of wu Wei (and the other wu concepts) are a pretty important underpinning to what Damo is saying in the video yet I haven’t really heard them spoken directly to. Would seem to me these concepts are the basis of all of this, including ting, song, the ba men energies etc. 

 

everytime I write something here I feel like I am setting myself up to be wrong when I know more but hopefully where I am (at the beginning) I can still contribute in someway to the discussion. Thanks for your patience while I try to catch up.

[ChiDragon]

性(xing) is the cultivation of the mind.

命(ming) is the cultivation of the body.

 

性命雙修 is the dual cultivation of xing and ming. The practice of dual cultivation will make one as a whole true person. The Chinese Taoist called 真人 when one has reached the realm of the dual cultivation.

 

The cultivation of the mind is to obtain knowledge and high moral standards to become a virtuous person. Hence, virtue is the result of the cultivation of xing(mind).

 

P.S. The cultivation of ming(body) is to  acquire a healthy body for longevity.

Edited February 25, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Antares]

7 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

The cultivation of the mind is to obtain knowledge and high moral standards to become a virtuous person. Hence, virtue is the result of the cultivation of xing(mind).

But where this idea comes from? What is cultivation of mind and how is this done practically?

[ChiDragon]

28 minutes ago, Antares said:

But where this idea comes from? What is cultivation of mind and how is this done practically?

 

The idea come from a high Taoist priest 王重陽(Wang Chongyang).

The cultivation of the mind is by obtaining  as much knowledge and high moral standards to become a virtuous person.

 

The practice was all done mentally.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Chongyang

Edited February 25, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Antares]

40 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

The practice was all done mentally.

 

Alright. But what doest it mean? Is it meditation? Can you provide any  quotations from his writings in regard to how become a virtuous person?

 

Edited February 25, 2023 by Antares

[ChiDragon]

It was understood to become a virtuous person is by following high moral standards of conduct. No?

[Antares]

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

It was understood to become a virtuous person is by following high moral standards of conduct. No?

Yes, I think No. Virtue is something different. But you are right partially.  There are "internal " and "external" virtues but both interrelated. 

One feeds the other one. But "external" one is not enough for ascension 

[ChiDragon]

12 minutes ago, Antares said:

Alright. But what doest it mean? Is it meditation?

To obtain knowledge is by learning from books or others. Things can be sorted out by meditation. All these can be done mentally.

[ChiDragon]

6 minutes ago, Antares said:

Yes, I think No. Virtue is something different. But you are right partially.  There are "internal " and "external" virtues but both interrelated. 

One feeds the other one. But "external" one is not enough for ascension 

 Okay! Perhaps you knew something more than me. There is nothing to be argued about that.

[Antares]

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

To obtain knowledge is by learning from books or others. Things can be sorted out by meditation. All these can be done mentally.

I totally disagree with you.  It is nothing to do with any mental activity

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

What is cultivation of mind and how is this done practically?

 

The average human mind has various attached intelligences, energies, patterns and traumas.  Many have adverse effects on the human.

 

So cultivation of the mind requires careful and deep removal of mental weeds.  And as we know from gardening, weeds keep reappearing for some years until all the seeds have gone from the soil.

 

Thus it is critical to observe adverse thoughts and resolve them or rise above them.   

 

This is accelerated by conscious connection to suitable spiritual energies.  Some spiritual energies belong to past stages of the local cosmos.

 

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

2 minutes ago, Antares said:

I totally disagree with you.  It is nothing to do with any mental activity

No problem, but knowledge does not retain in the mind？

[blue eyed snake]

i struggle with the concept of de

 

it's not virtue as we use it, it's got nothing to do with booklearning

 

at the moment i see it as right conduct that presents itself naturally.

( writing this, that suggests that de is needed for wu-wei)

 

looks to me that the combination of work with the body and work with the heartmind transforms/ can transform a person in such a way that she or he will grow in the amount of time/interactions that his/her conduct can be called/conforms to de